TeeJay

Dwelling in the Third Circle

I'd like to make a quick point - I owned a gen 16610lv around two years ago. I paid £4075 from an AD and for about a week was delighted until it kind of hit home that I'd bought a stainless steel watch that actually had a crooked cyclops. The watch went back and I was given a replacement by the dealer. I never felt the same about the watch and eventually sold it on. I get the fact that Rolexes are a luxury item etc, but for me still mass produced and severely overpriced. A pal of mine has a GMT 2 that was purchased brand new for around half the price of my sub around 2003. I will never buy gen again, for me it borders on pointless when I can get a TC or BK for next to nothing in comparison.

This might be a silly question, but didn't you notice the offset cyclops in the AD, or was it only a minor misalignment which took a while to be noticeable?

I took these yesterday, but was unable to load them to Photobucket

Here's where I was:

Here's where I was staying:

and here's what I was wearing:

TeeJay ... my belief is this ... If Rolex starts selling a low priced/quality watch in the $1,000 range then Rolex (the brand) begins to be devalued. If (relatively) anyone can buy one, then it's no longer the watch you're supposed to purchase when 'you've made it' or are celebrating a milestone in your life. It won't happen immediately, but over time it surely will happen. If anyone can buy one, they are no longer 'special'.

This will affect the 'high end line' because people don't buy a $10k Rolex because of it's price. They buy it because it's a Rolex, and what it stands for. If that's no longer the reason, there are a lot of $10k watches out there. Here's a $10k Invicta, for example.

http://www.ebay.com/...pos=33767&gbr=1

Assume that someone equally like the looks of this watch and the Rolex Daytona. Which watch do you think the general consumer is going to pick? The brand they've probably never heard of as being associated with luxury (or worse that they've seen hawked on Shop NBC), or Rolex? Fast forward 10 years when Rolex is selling it's entry level watches everywhere (maybe even on Shop NBC), and the perception that Rolex is special is gone.

Apologies for the delay, I was travelling yesterday, and father in law's mobile wifi cut out as I was about to respond I quite agree, no one would ever associate Invicta with a luxury 'Yeah, I've Made It!" watch. Just because something is expensive, doesn't necessarily make it classy or prestigious (ie neuveau riche yobs like soccer players...) I'm not suggesting that Rolex stop making the High End watches... Ceasing production of High End to sell budget stuff, yes, that would totally change the perception towards the brand, but what I was suggesting, was that they release a budget line to accompany the High End line. Even though a budget line would be universally affordable, the High End line would still retain that level of exclusivity and awareness of Rolex as a quality brand. My other thought with that, is that it would be a proactive move against counterfeiting, because it would be directly removing the demand. With regard your point about people buying it 'because it's a Rolex', those type of people are pretty shallow and pretentious, and I don't give their opinions much credence. People buying a Rolex because they appreciate the history of the company and the quality of the build, is a different matter, and those people would value the brand regardless of the price. Just because something is not expensive, it doesn't mean that it is not good, and equally, just because everyone is able to have something, at a suitable pricepoint, that shows that the product is good, for everyone to want it This is why I believe that a parallel budget line would not reduce the perception of Rolex as quality watch makers, and would not reduce their exclusivity (as there would still be a better engineered and more exclusive High End line)

Where did you hear that?

That they moved outsourcing of parts to China, or that it was to increase profits? The former was something I've frequently read on the various forums, the latter, is just common sense

Well ok mate I want a Lorex plastique Noir, keep your word buddy! Tell you what:if you EVER put together this watch, put it up for sales in RWG and I'll buy it, my word.

I could modify the text to read Polex, if you want? Can't get it to Lorex though... Not sure when I'll be in London next, but I'll be sure to pic one up

And does it mean the plastic submariner is up for sales matey?

That one'll never be for sale

Next time I'm in London, I'll pick up one of the base watches and put something together for you, brother

Wearing my current GMTII, but I'm having issues uploading to photobucket at the moment, which may be down to my location, so I'll try again later...

If you've truly found The One for you, which meets all requirements and eventualities, then your journey is complete I would like to say that maybe over time something else might take your eye, but, if your needs have been satisfied, then that may not happen Rebuilding my collection made me refine my game plan, and I now pretty much keep it to 'one watch for a particular style of wardrobe or activity'. I think if I was to cut it down to just The One Watch, it would be be my planned custom vintage GMT, as the smaller sized case would allow for smart wear on a leather strap, it could go on NATO or Tropic-Style for hot weather, and SS bracelet for everything in between That said, I'm not planning on stripping back my collection, as I wouldn't want to be without the others, they have sentimental value

We may believe that, but most assuredly, the luxury brands do not. I believe that what they contend are lost sales are not because of what we have discussed here,but what the luxury brands call "brand dilution". Here is what they think.And not wanting to sound like a snob, but exactly what i'm describing happened to me. Many years ago, i saved up my pennies, and bought myself a brand new 18k Rolex Day/Date. The price then was about 5k which was a ton of money for a watch. I really didn't know anything about reps, this was before the internet, and all I saw were a few replicas advertised in the back of magazines. i went out of town to buy a vehicle a few months after buying the watch. When i sat down with the sales manager and salesman to work out the purchase details, I noticed that both of them had Rolex "Presidents" very similar to mine on their wrists. Only difference the second hands were jumping, obviously quartz movements. i realized that these were fake, but to the average person they were a Rolex.After that, I saw more and more quartz reps, and after a while, i decided that why have the real thing that I saved for for months, when anybody could pick up a rep for 100 bucks. i sold my Day/Date, and for quite a few years, I didn't own another Rolex, I bought watches from other brands, but that experience soured me on Rolex watches for quite a while. Later on (years later!), I began to see really nice reps on the rep forums, and I decided at that point that maybe my attitude at the time was wrong, I suppose I was bitter about the fact that I worked really ,really hard to save up the money for the real thing and folks who bought the reps were buying them with their "play around" money. I truly believe that the attitude I had way back then is still very prevalent today.There are lots of folks who will not wear a brand of watch, shoes, purse, etc. that is repped to the point that everyone can afford them.Wealthy women, aren't going to rush out to buy a LV bag just because they like the rep that their maid is carrying. That's the reason Rolex and others hate reps, and also why Rolex will never have a Chinese made Rolex branded watch at a lower price point.

I guess my feeling towards Rolex (both as a product and as a company) is that I appreciate the designs and the aesthetics, which is why I like to wear them, but the inverse snob in me refuses to pay X Amount for something which is available (albeit in replica form) at a much more affordable and (IMHO) reasonable price Even if I could afford to buy all the gens I wanted, I would never wear one on principle

Are you aware that watches become magnetized by everyday items like stereo speakers, drills, tvs & just about anything that has an electric motor? You would be surprised at how easily watches can become magnetized & how often owners pay hundreds of dollars to have their watch repaired when it is just magnetized. The point is that it is not just those who work around high magnetic fields who benefit from parachrom hair springs (& the same can be said for most of Rolex's other innovations). Just sayin..................

I did not know that... I knew that leaving VHS cassettes near/on speakers could affect the tape, and since finding that out, I would not put something like a watch on one 'just in case', but I didn't realize that the issue was so wide-spread, as it's not been an issue which I'd experienced myself. I only started using the quartz watch while tattooing with a coil machine, as I didn't want the output to eventually magnetize a favorite beater, but I didn't realize that an electric motor could also have an effect. Interesting indeed

TeeJay, you are too intelligent to fall for that 'Rolex deserves to have their trademarks & patents stolen because they are a greedy multi-national company.

Since when have we become so Obama-nized to believe that running a business for profit is akin to clubbing baby seals or stealing money from the church?

I guess I just feel that as Rolex (and other companies) intentionally moved manufacturing to China to increase (already massive) profits, their greed earned the bad karma of having their IP stolen and used to make today's near-perfect reproductions, as opposed to the obvious fakes of yesteryear. Additionally, the fact that their watches were not 100% Swiss Made, meant that they were lying to their consumers, another black mark in my book, hence why I feel that the current situation is rather fitting in its cyclic irony, and my lack of sympathy for them

Rolex, like any other successful company, must be in Asia if they want to compete in the global marketplace. In fact, Rolex (along with Apple) spent a decade or so marketing their products in China long before the majority of Chinese citizens were even allowed to buy them. Somewhere in my gigabytes of picture archives, I have photos of a Rolex Daytona poster in Tienanmen Square from the late 1970s (or early 1980s) & I remember thinking that Rolex is going to sack their entire international marketing team when they get the bill for that waste of money. But, as it turned out, it was a brilliant move because those marketing guys did their homework & were 1 of the 1st western companies to see the writing on the Great Wall (that is, China's future), probably even before the Chinese saw it. Once free enterprise took hold in China & people began to amass a bit of extra cash to spend on luxury good, guess what name these nouveau riche immediately thought of? Rolex, of course. And it was not by accident. It was a gamble that cost Rolex alot of money, but it was a gamble that paid off. So why should they be chastised for throwing the dice & (because they did their homework) profiting from a clever investment? Just sayin (again)..............

With regards the situation you describe with the posters, absolutely, there's nothing wrong with creating a demand. And nothing wrong with having product made in China (or elsewhere) and appropriately labeled thus, ie Apple, Nike etc. I don't see that as brand de-valuation, just honest marketing. And of course, nothing wrong with having a brand which is someone's first thought when it comes to Luxury Status (although ironically in Rolex's case, also also often thought of as fake when encountered) What I object to, is the back-hand cost-cutting, and maintaining that 'Swiss Made' claim, while complaining about reproductions which would not evolved to the current level of accuracy, had they kept production in Geneva

Couldn't disagree more. Luxury brands are luxury brands for a reason. They have been designed, built, marketed and priced to be that way.

Yes and no. Luxury brands are luxury brands because for the most part people are idiots and live their lives by what others (Marketing gurus) tell them to think/like/wear. Rolex are now a luxury brand, but historically, they were not, they were functional tool watches, not the functional jewelry that they are now. Rolex sold out. There's no denying their success, but that doesn't stop them as a company, from being sell-outs...

If Rolex came out with a Chinese made (and appropriately priced) line, it would absolutely de-value the brand. Exclusivity is the hallmark of a luxury brand. If anyone can afford one, you lose that.

How would it de-value the brand if they are still selling a high-priced Swiss Made line? Not everyone would be able to afford them, just as now, so there would be no devaluation. The only difference, is that there would also be an honestly priced affordable version... People would have a choice in which they buy, rather than being forced to either 'go gen, go rep or go without'. The distinction between the Swiss Made and China Made dial print would keep the gen snobs happy, as they would feel they were still keeping their exclusivity, and as all the profits from both revenue streams would still be going in Rolex's coffers, as a company, they wouldn't be losing out in any way at all

There is actually no reason Rolex couldn't sell a Submariner right now for $1,000, and they'd sell millions. They don't because they know it would kill their brand.

How would lowering the price kill the brand? Don't confuse Branding and Consumerism, with a company's product performance... Alpha Watch can sell a clone sub for about $80. If Rolex were to take advantage of their Chinese manufacturers and sell an equally priced product (ie everything which is in a 21j Budget rep, but 100% Official) then equally, they would sell millions. I daresay they would make more from those sales, as the amounts involve would rapidly accumulate (because of the strength of Rolex's reputation for a quality product) and then the sales from the high end Swiss Made line with the parachrome hairsprings etc, would then be purchased by those who actually need and appreciate that additional feature, thus providing even more income

Failure happens all the time with perceived high end companies trying to move down market (anyone remember the Cadillac Catera?). The masses who buy gen Rolex's do so precisely because they are perceived to have been built well, are expensive, and not everyone will have one.

The smarter companies come out with an different branded product (for example, Tudor) when they want to try to go down or up markets. That way if it fails, the original mark isn't affected.

By the way, it also doesn't work moving up-market. Toyota, Honda and Nissan were smart in this regard, others, not so much. By all accounts, the Hyundai Equus is supposed to be a magnificent automobile, but most buyers of a $60k car don't want a Hyundai badge on the back. Same with the VW Phaeton ... a $70k VW. What were they thinking? Most recently, even though they made one good move with Infiniti, Nissan made a huge (IMO) mistake branding the GT-R a Nissan and not an Infiniti. On the watch side of things, look at the Grand Seiko line ... I would doubt that outside the Asian market they sell all that well despite being very well made and innovative timepieces. Who wants to spend $5k+ for a simple 3-hand automatic with Seiko on the dial?

I think the alternate branding is a perfectly valid way to go, and indeed, that does protect the identity of the prime brand, but, not everyone is aware of those alternate lines. Not everyone knows that a Tudor is a budget Rolex, or that a Lexus is a High End Toyota That is why I'm suggesting that the difference in the lines be down to Chinese Made/Swiss Made dial text and interior construction variation, because that way, someone on a lower rung of the financial ladder can still 'buy a Rolex' without having to sell a kidney to buy something over-priced 'just for the privilege', and someone on a higher rung can still feel like a Big Man by spending the higher price, and actually getting something different for their money to justify said price point. As before, I think the two lines would compliment each other, and would only be a financial success, as the increased sales would mean increased profit, while having the additional bonus of making a genuine impact on counterfeiting, by removing the demand which allows them to supply... Not that I have an issue with counterfeiting, but as before, if Rolex wants to actually make a difference, rather than just acting like a whiny spoiled brat company, they need to actually engage with that demographic and make steps to actually convert those into buyers, rather than just being litigious, which does nothing to actually reduce the demand...

Certainly, value is in the eye of the beholder & I agree that Rolex as well as most other iconic brand vendors do make excessively large profits. However, it is difficult to put a value on branding (after all, it took nearly 100 years & alot of effort/money for Rolex to make the Rolex name the icon it is today), so who is to say whether the prices charged for Rolex are reasonable in the vast scheme of things?

I do see your point, I simply feel that it's time someone turned round to Rolex as a company, and simply told them to stop whining about infringement issues (albeit legitimate) as they were the ones who not only created the demand for their product, but decided to outsource to a country notorious for its replica industry ( ) for no reason other than greed... For all their complaints that counterfeiting takes their sales, I simply do not believe that. I believe that the majority of rep buyers (world-wide, people on vacation etc, not simply community members) simply would not buy the genuine item (for many different reasons) so they cannot be considered 'lost sales'. So when the rep makers come along offering a (nearly) visually identical product for a fraction of the price, it's not hard to realize why people would go for that alternative, even though it seems beyond the folks at Rolex to work that out If Rolex want to not only recover those sales, but actually win them in the first place (as they never really had them to begin with) and at the same time deal a blow to the rep industry, they should release a China Made line, and stand behind it proudly as a product. IMHO, such a two-tiered marketing strategy would allow Rolex to continue to cater to the higher end of the market with a Swiss Made line with all the technological bells and whistles, with no devaluation in product, but additionally cater to the low end of the market, which they seem to consider lost sales, yet make no attempt to actually engage with... I say there would be no devaluation of the product, because there would be the distinction between the two lines, and a genuine and demonstrable difference between the two products. That would be truly allowing the customer to decide if the Rolex Price Tag is really worth it, as it would be giving the financial freedom of choosing between rep and gen prices, but in a 100% official and licensed manner, where all the money from either line would still wind up in the same account... Of course, there would still be the rep factories, but with a genuine product available at a rep price, there would be no incentive for customers to use them anymore (other than as vacation novelties)... Equally, there would still be the franken builders who want to put Swiss parts in a China base, again, getting the Full Look, at less than full price... Of course, all purely hypothetical, but it just makes so much sense to me, I simply don't see what prevents Rolex from taking such a move (other than stubborn pride)

The owner who has to pay to get his watch demagnetized or his (scratched) bezel replaced probably does care, even if he is blissfully unaware of the engineering & technology that Rolex put into the advances that allow him to avoid these types of problems that plague Asian-made copies. And, again, whether that is worth the price differential is up to you.

Of course, if those issues occur and the owner needs to have their watch serviced, then yes, they would indeed become more aware of what's going on 'under the hood', but what I was meaning, would be say to actually make the anti-magnetic springs more of a selling point specifically for people who operate in high magnetic fields, as with the Milgaus line, thus making it a conscious choice on the part of the buyer to choose a watch with that option because it suits their needs. Rather than it being an evolution in movement technology which gets rolled out in a model update, such as from the 16610 - Ceramic Submariner, and someone simply 'having to pay for it', because they've walked into an AD and been shown the latest model, they would be able to say they need a watch to be anti-magnetic (or not) and thus purchase what is best for their personal needs as a consumer, if that makes any sense?

Wrong. Read about the research/engineering that went into development of the parachrom hairspring, ceramic bezel or any of Rolex's recent innovations. You should know, too, that most of the functions/features that make the modern wristwatch what it is today, were either developed or 1st implemented in a major way by Rolex. Contrary to popular opinion, Rolex is constantly researching new ways to make a watch better, more accurate or more reliable & that costs alot of money. And that does not even take into account all of the charities that Rolex has (often quietly) supported over the years.

While this is true, I still don't think that it entirely justifies some of the high prices (excluding precious metal builds, of course) And of course, this reinforces my idea about the China Made line. Some people (ie many rep buyers) couldn't care less if the hairspring is anti-magnetic*, or if the bezel insert is truly solid cerachrome or just a plated version, and this is the market, he supposed 'lost sales', which I feel would be recouped by a China Made line. Equally, that wouldn't devalue the Swiss Made line, simply because the Swiss Made would be providing those more specialist parts

*certainly a useful feature for a tattoo artist, and they (some of the 'well known artists') are often watch enthusiasts (with the funds to buy the gens) but whether they are aware of said parachrome spring is another matter

What can I say? The country's fucked, and- No, actually, I think that pretty much explains everything

If Rolex is so concerned about counterfeiting and their fiction of 'lost customers', they should just release a China Made range priced as per the Chinese made clones/reps, and there'd be enough uptake on sales to make up for any loss ( ) of sales on the Swiss Made line

Good to see you posting again, brother

A small detail to be sure, but it really does make all the difference

Thanks guys.

Just household bleach for the inserts.

Apart from the Blue Tudor sub all of these builds were either sold on long ago, or were customer pieces I'm afraid.

Which brand are you using, and are you using it neat or diluted?

Awesome collection

When I first looked at the picture of the watch I thought OMG what hideous depths have Rolex sunk to now (pardon the double entendre). Then read the ad and saw that the diamonds had been added after by someone else. However, it is a sad thought that I actually believed that Rolex today would do such a thing. Such is their perception - in my mind at least.

In the minds of many (if not most) Rolex = Fake...

Don't feel bad though, given the recent gem-encrusted abortions Rolex have released, it's certainly not impossible to think that they would have released that themselves

Beautiful pieces, each amazing in their own way, but I especially like the Qaboos

Fantastic builds What technique did you use to fade the earlier inserts? They came out a treat

A fantastic read, thankyou for sharing Here's hoping your health improves

I'm sure some rapper will buy it :bangin:

brother, its true, sometimes we all worry too much about life. I would like to believe that the custom officers would like to own a couple of high end reps themselves. They sure would love a beer, good sex, awesome food like the rest of us, so why not a nice rep watch?

And what better way to acquire one than off an unsuspecting tourist