TeeJay

Oh joy, I now have a bad reputation because someone does not like what I write...

I would certainly say that is close to defining my opinion on gen watches (or for that matter, any branded product, which also has an acceptable generic equivalent) To touch on the point you make about watches holding their value, for the most part, yes, I would absolutely agree with you, however, there are exceptions where reps can have a value along the line of gens: Movie props. Keifer Sutherland wore a rep Sub in the first series of 24. If that was to go up for auction, I could see it getting a considerable price. The same with the rep Daytona Uma Thurman held in Kill Bill Vol II. I only say this, as when OJ Simpson's creditors tried to call in his debts and seized his Rolex, it turned out to be a rep. People were offering to buy said rep for what would be gen price, simply because it was OJ Simpson's watch...

You're absolutely correct, I think the problem, is the R-Word. It's success is also it's undoing. The name is almost universally recognized, but, it is also universally linked to replication, so to the uninitiated, Rolex either = Super Rich, or, it = Fake, with no middle-ground, due to the misconception that Rolex watches are 'the best of the best' in terms of 'expensive watches' (which is of course totally false, but, it is the public perception of the brand... Another aspect which I think people forget, is how long an item can potentially last. For example, a pair of designer frames for eye-glasses can cost a lot of money, but, given the average 12 month lifespan of a pair (after that, it really is worth having the prescription checked, and possibly altered) when the cost is broken down to how much it costs on a daily basis, it is probably still cheaper than buying daily disposable contact lenses, and much less than people might spend on other vices like cigarettes, coffee or alcohol on a daily/weekly basis. Given that there are vintage Subs still in existence from the 50s, it's reasonable to expect a modern Sub to be equally functional in 50 years time, and, if a young man was to buy a Sub in his early twenties (such as a friend of mine who is a Royal Navy submariner) in theory, he need never buy another watch in his lifetime. When viewed from that perspective, the cost of the watch breaks down very reasonably. Of course, without corporate greed, that retail price could still be considerably cheaper (and that's where Reps come in

It's pretty funny when you think about it, isn't it True, sadly, to the untrained observer, such a piece may come across as over-compensation for other shortcomings Sadly, you're absolutely spot on correct quite right there

Ahh, I see entirely what you mean, and I quite agree, the profit is definitely derailing the core ethic of a tool watch I would say that the DSSD falls under the same catagory, in that it is over-engineered, and can withstand pressures which would kill the wearer

No offense taken at all, I understand that my opinions can appear somewhat contradictory to others As I said before, it is not the luxury goods which I hate, but the greed of the industry. With regards to watches, for me, the pleasure is treating it as a project. A gen is perfect, so there's no need to tinker (beyond a desire to customize) where reps allow greater scale for customization. If gens were not so over-priced, then I wouldn't have any problem with them whatsoever. I do own a Rolex... It was just made on my coffee table rather than a Swiss clean room As before, it's not the end product which I take issue with. Sure, I've tried on gens which didn't impress me, but that was simply a case of those particular watches not impressing me, just like I've worn reps which didn't impress me either, or jackets, or shoes, or any number of garments. At the end of the day, I try not to perceive watches as prestige items, just 'items', which I either like, or dislike accordingly. Similar, but not the same, and, as mentioned, much of my interest is down to the aesthetics The only people's actions I'm criticizing, are those people who think that being able to buy a gen, makes them a superior human being. I'm not anti-all gen owners, because not all gen owners are like that. As before, I am very much anti-consumersism, and it is the industry itself which I dislike, not the output, and not the majority of the 'end users' Although I can certainly understand how it seems that way, I'd disagree, for the reason mentioned above. For example, when I tried on an EXP II, I just didn't like how it looked or felt on my wrist. It probably wasn't even on my wrist 10 seconds. It was an instant disliking to it as a watch, not because it was a gen, or it's price, but because I just 'didn't like it'. Again, when I tried on a DJ, while it felt nicer than the EXP II, I felt it was too small for me, so again, while it was a nice watch in its own right, it did nothing for me at all, if that's making any sense? Again, I'd pretty much say what I did immediately above, and in the previous post: I might dislike 'that kind of person', but that doesn't make me hate the product. I might hate the industry, but again, that doesn't make me hate the product either. On the other hand, if the product doesn't appeal to me, then I'm not going to think I should like it just because of an artificially inflated price tag, and I will solely view it based on what 'it is' Again, I'm not insulted at all, as I know my opinions can appear contradictory to folks who don't know me well, that's why I explained about my wardrobe's origin. The LV bag, was a replacement for a messenger bag I'd had for about 8 years, so I wanted something which would last equally as well, and, from a previous purchase with KB, I had a hunch that it would (last as well) and it would have, had I not crammed in the equivalent of several phone directories and over-stressed the strap's adjusting buckle, but since knotting the strap back together, it has otherwise been flawless in durability As before, my interest in reps is not so much a case of wanting to acquire 'a prestige product' for the sake of having 'a prestige product', but a way of acquiring a nice watch (which has a particular aesthetic) for a reasonable price As I've mentioned before, I like to think of reps as 'fair trade' watches I hope that makes my opinion a little clearer

I know what you mean there, but, would you say that things like the sports were lifestyles which you picked up because of the watches, or, were they interests you already had, and simply gravitated towards the watches which best complemented that lifestyle? I've always loved swimming and any kind of water-based activity, so I've always wanted watches which I could wear in the water (I really don't like being without a watch on for any great length of time) so I just gravitated towards (no doubt helped along the way by James Bond) diver's watches as my primary interest, and, as I enjoy travel, by extension, the GMT complication as well I totally get what you mean about the attitude though. I know one person in particular who is so far up her own ass, it's unbelievable. To hear her describe herself, you'd think she was some kind of gorgeous super-model, when truth be told, she's more than a little on the chunky side, is nearly the same color as a carrot, thanks to fake-tan and sunbeds, and just wears the most tacky, gaudy clothes and bling outside of a 70s Pimp. She seems to think that because she's 'got money', she's above everyone else, and that she's the Top Notch, when truth is, she's the embodiment of all the worst traits of a nouveau riche wannabe footballer's wife/girlfriend (and the one of those I know, is so down to earth, it's laughable by comparison) and those're the worst kind of attitudes to encounter, as they just think that the trappings of wealth somehow make them a better person...

Very nice

It's a nice piece, I'm sure your lady will like it I've got a Rhodium-effect, Roman Numerals DJ on order for my wife, which I ordered instead of parts I had planned to get for myself, so I hope she likes it as well

Just to mix it up a bit, I've put this on for the afternoon... I know, it looks a state, it's going to undergo a major regeneration in the hopefully not to distant future

That's why I built one (well, something along the lines of one )

And to have two 217s, that monkey must be into some big pimpin

I was thinking 127 myself

They kind of look a bit like PAMs

Whoops, double post...

Obviously I can't speak on your behalf, but personally speaking, if I try an item on in a store, I know if I like said product enough to buy it. I also know that if I am not 100% impressed by said item, I am not going to buy it. As I mentioned in another topic, the majority of the gens I have tried on recently not only failed to impress me, but I actually disliked them. I didn't have to buy them and wear them for a while to realize that. I'm not talking about 'the experience' of owning a gen, but wether I actually like the product enough to want to buy it in the first place... It's really not a complex point at all, as the boldened text is pure supposition on your part. Until I joined the forum, I did not know anything about different models of Subs, so my appreciation for the 1680 dial, and preference for it over the modern dials, is a purely aesthetic consideration, (acquired since after joining the forum) with nothing to do with the above points I'm not too sure what you mean... I likely would not have thought "Is this X model Sub?" but I would likely have thought "That's a nice watch..." and picked one up As before, if you can point me in the direction of a sterile 1680 dial within reasonable budgetary limits, then please share the link, as I would be most interested in checking it out Please don't tell me I'm kidding myself, it's rather patronising, and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything about my opinion. I'm simply stating what it is, people are free to accept it or not, but please don't tell me that I don't know my own mind Yes, cheaper high quality bags might well be available elsewhere, but, having purchased from KB previously, I knew the items he carries were of a high quality, and as I was looking to make a long-term investment in a new bag (I am expecting at least a decade's use out of it before it starts falling apart on me) I was willing to believe that the quality of this bag would be as high as the previous goods, and make the sale Just to bring it back onto the topic of the conversation, I carry the bag in public, and have never once given any thought to if anyone notices the branding on it, nor been concerned that someone might 'call me out' over it I also have a £3 rucksack (actually built as a laptop bag) which I also use frequently, and have had a shorter time than the LV messenger. So far, one zip toggle has snapped, the other toggle is on the verge of snapping, and the overall construction of the bag is much less sturdy. Sure, it suffices for the purposes I use it for, but, at the end of the day, the difference in quality of the respective products does match the difference in the prices paid for them. Now, wether I'd think the messenger was actually worth LV's suggested retail price, is another kettle of fish entirely I agree, a majority might not own a Rolex, but, a majority of people are aware of the brand enough, that if someone was to say "Do you want a Rolex?" and offer them one, chances are they would be very impressed with such a generous gift. Yes, the aspiration to own an item created by marketing can indeed by freely rejected by anyone, but, as the old saying goes, "peerpressure's a motherfucker..." People might, in the grand scheme of things, be free to choose, but in the real world, it's not always so easy to do when the people you work with, or family and friends all wear X product and say it's awesome... As before, Rolex created the desire through marketing, and they are the ones who control the price at retail (which while many may aspire to, not everyone can afford) so in that regards, they are the victims of their own success, in creating a relatively unattainable goal, which left the gap open for rep manufacturers to step into, by providing said product at a considerably cheaper price. Okay, sure, I know that a rep might not equal a gen in terms of manufacturing, but, as far as JoeSixPack is concerned, the dial on their wrist says 'Rolex', so that's all they care about, so in that regard, a watch is a watch, regardless of if it's gen or rep, and chances are, they'll get just as much pleasure out of it. As before, don't think I'm resentful of gens, as I'm not. To be honest, I just find them boring in their perfection, unless it is a particularly rare model, which I then find interesting in terms of that rarity, but, that doesn't mean I resent them, dislike them, or those who buy them. As I said, it's the 'luxury industry' itself which bugs me, as it exists solely to create 'false idols', and overcharges people for products which could, in all honesty, be purchased for much less, were it not for corporate greed [Edit to add] I think it's funny that the items you mention, my watch and messenger bag, are (with the exclusion of my lost Daytona and a few dry Mont Blanc pens) the only 'prestige branded' goods I own. My entire wardrobe comes from Tesco, and on occasion Matalan (I actually had a pair of shoes from Matalan re-heeled because I liked them so much) and I tend to drink generic cola rather than Pepsi, so the things you mentioned, rather than 'proving a point', are actually 'the exceptions to the rule', (and even then not truly exceptions, as I did not purchase them for the associated prestige of the logos)when it comes to my possessions PS I just remembered that I have an iPhone, it never even occurred to me to add it to my list of 'prestige possessions' as I consider it such a practical and widely-used tool, also, given their availability, while I accept that they are nicer, and more expensive than some basic mobile phones, I would not class them as 'luxury items' due to their relatively easy availability Awesome watch, but sadly (for me, at least) it's a modern style, so not really what I like in a Sub dial... Thanks for the link though, it might well make a good parts donor

I don't think resentful is quite the correct term, although I can certainly understand how it might be perceived as such to someone else. On a personal level, I do not like consumerism, 'brand name worship', or goods being sold for more than their true value. I don't so much 'resent' the industry, as that would suggest that I was jealous of not having the funds to buy the goods, it's more a case of I despise the industry, and wouldn't buy the goods even if I had the cash to do so, as I simply do not feel that they are worth the price tag. A few years back, I nearly bought a gen sub. I had the cash, so that was not the issue, but when I tried it on, I was so utterly unimpressed, there was just no way I would want to spend that much money on something with left me feeling so uninspired. That's what then got me looking for reps, and the rest, as they say, is history. On one hand, it is simply a case of aesthetic appreciation and getting the detail as I want them. I might dislike the gen industry, but that does not mean that I dislike the products themselves. I like particular watches, I just don't like them being over-priced for no reason other than corporate greed. On the other hand, it is a case of availability of parts. If you could point me in the direction of a sterile version of a 1680 dial, and at a better price than I can pick up a cheap rep for, then by all means, please point me in the direction Please don't confuse my aesthetic appreciation for aspiration to 'the lifestyle' I disagree, I bought the goods because I liked how they looked, and for utilitarian purposes. My LV messenger from KB has lasted better than many cheaper bags I have previously had. Sure, a strap adjuster snapped when I seriously over-loaded the bag with papers, but other than that, it's as good as the day I unwrapped it, where other bags I've had for a similar period of time became frayed and worn very quickly. I know that I can appear somewhat contradictory, but that is simply an appearance, rather than anything else I would disagree, and if anything, suggest that Rolex (and many other prestige products) are the victims of their own success, and the very marketing upon which they rely: Marketing tells people to look a certain way, wear a certain product, live a certain life, but, not everyone can necessarily afford that at the price, so those people, possibly feeling pressured into conformity, are going to seek out the replica goods rather than the real thing, so who is really to blame there? The people who feel the need to have these brandnames to validate themselves, or the companies which make them feel they need to have the brandnames to validate themselves...

Indeed, it's a small forum Do you have a link to an article about that (kids losing arms etc), I'd certainly be interested to read it As above, I can understand the moral aspect, but, I know that many legitimate prestige products are equally made under such conditions, and will continue to be, so avoiding rep goods really wouldn't make much of an impact, as the other goods would still be being produced, it's like I said about vegetarianism. I totally understand why someone would choose not to eat meat on moral grounds, I just don't share that belief. Out of curiosity, what was it about the questions which you didn't want? Was it a case of not wanting to 'get called out' wearing a rep, or just not wanting to discuss a watch at all? I only ask as personally, I'd be happy to tell anyone about what I was wearing, without being embarrassed about wearing counterfeit merch, if they're genuinely interested and asking out of a genuine interest. Heck, even if it was someone trying to 'call me out', I can still point out that, regardless of the watch being a replica, or even its accuracy to any said mode, I personally built it, and with the few friends who have been interested in the project, that has been their focus of interest, rather than the brand on the dial, or the origin of the parts (which they're all fully aware of). Of course, all that being said, I'd rather just not attract the attention in the first place, which is why I went for the vintage aesthetic, rather than a modern watch... You may well be correct about a large percentage of rep owners passing them off as genuine and status symbols, I certainly know one person who is like that, who wears a rep Explorer II (obvious to anyone who knows Rolex, as it has the coronet and Rolex etched into the endlinks of the bracelet...) who seems to think he's a member of (to use his phrase) "the Rolex Club", yet who when we were discussing my project sub, didn't know why the bezel rotated, and upon being told that it was a diver's watch, said he'd be scared to take a Rolex underwater... If he's indicative of the majority of rep owners, then I would certainly agree with you. That said, I don't think it is at all indicative of the majority of the members of the forum As you say, to each his own

Interesting perspective, but, it does rather rely on the end buyer only buying rep goods for the associated prestige value, rather than simply an appreciation for the form aesthetically. I can certainly understand the moral point you raise as well, in the same way that I can understand why some people choose to be vegetarians or vegans, but, I don't feel strongly enough about that issue to actually abstain myself. Certainly not when so many premium products are made under less than ideal conditions anyway (sneakers, for example) Wearing a rep does not automatically mean that the person is doing so to 'pretend to be someone they're not', and I wouldn't label someone accordingly, in fact, I'd think less about the person who bought the genuine item, and thought that the ability to do so actually meant something, or made them a better person, than I would about the person who buys a rep. That said, I would look very unfavorably on someone who bought a rep and tried to pass it off as genuine, if asked politely about it. One thing's for sure, I'd take the members of this forum, over the snobs of gen forums any day

Within the past couple of years, I've tried on the following gens: Ebel Discovery 1911 Explorer II (white dial) Date Just (black dial) GMT II Ceramic Submariner Some Bvlgari, but I'm not familiar with the model name... Tag Aquaracer Omega Planet Ocean (both sizes) The only ones which actually impressed me in any way, was the GMT II C, and even then, I didn't like the polished mid-links of the bracelet (and still didn't think if was worth £5000) and the Ebel Discovery (and even then, it's not a watch I could see myself wearing day in, day out, so no point in me buying one...) The Explorer II, came off my wrist within seconds of the clasp closing. The Aquaracer left me feeling seriously disappointed, the Planet Oceans were nice, but I honestly couldn't see any improvement over the rep, for the cost involved. While I would not dispute a person's own experiences or appreciation for a gen watch, personally speaking, it is not a phenomenon I experience, so to me, I just think a watch is a watch, regardless, and, accordingly, a nice watch is a nice watch regardless, and, at the end of the day, it's just a matter of personal tastes and requirements

Given that the only watches I own are reps, yes, I wear them in public without a second thought. I agree with a lot of what you've said, but for me, this is the point which sums up my own reasons for wearing a rep: As I was just explaining to another forum friend, the reason why I built a vintage sub, and then beat it up to look the age the case should be, is anonymity. I don't want the watch to attract attention. I don't want people to notice it and wonder how much it's worth. All I want, is a watch which serves my needs, and, in this instance, if someone else was to notice it, I'd hope that they just think "What a beaten up POS", without even looking close enough to see the R-Word on the dial Admitedly, mine's a real bastardization from several models of Subs over the years, but I think if the parts involved were genuine, then the accumulative value would still likely be quite high. Not a watch I could afford to buy myself, but, plausibly something I might have inherited, and while I'd be happy to explain to anyone who asked that it is a rep, and I did build it myself, I'd hope that they never even gave it enough thought to ask Awesome topic, by the way, I think there'll be some enlightening answers

Yes, a gen is a gen, but, if you're not bonding with it, then it's just "a watch you don't like", so it being gen rather than rep, really only matters in terms of the value it may hold in a sale or exchange situation, and even if you sell or swap, either way, the person on the other end of the transaction still gets the pleasure of a gen At the end of the day, it comes down to what you're comfortable with as a watch, and what you like. A while back, I bought a (rep) Vacheron Constantin Overseas, as from the photos, it looked like a gorgeous watch. And, when it arrived, it was indeed a gorgeous watch. But. As much as I liked looking at it, I couldn't stand wearing it, so I got rid of it very quickly. It had nothing to do with the watch being a rep, as it was a gorgeous watch, it just "wasn't me" when it came to wearing it...

Bearing the boldened text in mind, I'd say get rid of it for a watch which you do connect with Rep or gen, who cares... At the end of the day, a nice watch is a nice watch regardless, and as long as you like it, that's all that matters

Fantastic pics, thanks for sharing That's some real vintage quality

I wasn't really up for changing my avatar, but here's a couple of pics of my favorite Bond Girl to keep in the spirit of things :wub: