TeeJay

All the more reason to for the admin to remove links to their sites and IP Ban them. They might not need our custom, we certainly don't need them. Not with the other dealers and other member resources available. As I've said several times, giving them a second chance due to past reputation, is just giving them a second chance to scam people.

Sorry for the delay, folks. This is a link to the watch in question: http://www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=2493536 Now, please bear in mind that I have not seen this watch in person, nor dealt with the dealer before. If the photo is indeed accurate, then I think this is one very nice watch. I suspect that the dial might be smooth, with the wave logo printed on it, but, from the pictures, it is hard to be 100% sure. I am going purely on the photo and the assumption (hope) that the dealer is honest. From what I can see, the watch is an absolute steal for the price

Having tried on both sizes, I find both sizes look fine, although my fiance thought the 45 looked too big... I dread to think which generation my 42 is, as the Omega logo is printed ink, same as the lettering (which I actually really like, as it looks uniform) and the words 'Swiss Made' are actually above the minute markings rather than beneath them. Despite these inaccuracies, I absolutely love the watch, as it was a christmas present from my fiance, and I can't wait to get it back from having the crown repaired

That's fantastic, thanks for the info

What are you talking about? You wrote this post (as the begining of a thread) nearly a month ago! Given your comments then, how can you complain now about the things which at the time, you knew and accepted? I admit, the HEv falling out sucks, and it sucks that the bezel has been damaged, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'missing 3' marker or the screws instead of pins which you already knew about. If you don't want the watch any more, then I'll gladly take it off your hands for you, as I want the dial for my project watch. If you are prepared to get the dial out and sell it to me, I'll happily point you in the direction of what appears to be (as far as I can tell) a much more accurate SMP for $92

I've never bought a Panerai before, never soon one in person or worn one, and really don't know very much about them at all as a brand, other than the fact I like how they look. I am planning on buying a Panerai Marina H Series as a birthday present for my father in law later this year, and have seen one that is very nice. My questions, are to do with the movement and it's powersource. It does not appear to be an automatic, so I can only conclude it is a hand-winding watch, so my questions, are: 1. How many turns of the crown would it need for a 'full charge' 2. How long would a 'full charge' last for? 3. When winding, would it be obvious when to stop winding the watch, or would it be possible to over-wind it? I ask these questions as, not only would I like to get one for myself, but my father in law is not really a 'watch guy', and normally wears quartz, so would be unfamiliar with mechanical movement. Thanks in advance

Angus, we've never done business, and you've never caught my attention as a dealer, compared to Andrew and Josh, so there is absolutely no personal motives in what I say at all. You are saying that you never drop ship for Andrew or Josh. In the message you posted to Tim, you said that you did. Either you were lying then, or you are lying now. Either way, you are lying, and if you can lie about that, there is a lot you could also be lying about. I do not do business with liars. Your have contradicted yourself. Either they only deal with you, or they will sell to other dealers, that does not bother me. But, for you to contradict yourself simply shows you to be a liar. You do it again here: Don't use poor English as an excuse to hide behind, you have not only contradicted yourself, but done so twice. The comments you have posted here, with the comment Tim posted, (which he was totally right to do, by the way, because it let us all know what is going on) rather than proving your innocence, has actually proved that you, like Andrew and Joshua, are a liar.

With the greatest of respect, I couldn't care less about the pressures the dealers face. That is the nature of their business. They knew that when they decided to enter that business. You don't join the armed forces or the police and then complain when you get shot at. You don't become a paramedic and complain when crackheads throw up over you. You don't work in a video store and complain you're on your feet all day. Every job has it's risks and down-sides, and people enter into those jobs fully aware of those things. Risks are not justification for misrepresenting product. Risks are not justification for telling someone a watch will be serviced, and sending it to them un-touched. So you might have had good service from Joshua, so have many people. Would you be saying the same thing if you had bought one of the B&R watches? I seriously doubt it. Triad would be more precice, but spot on about the business methods.

To address the boldened points. What guarantee is there that they will keep the descriptions accurate? As I said above, Andrew has already 'back-slid' in his habits, even if he does buck his ideas up, what is to stop him back-sliding again in the future? Just because you are happy to run the risk of getting scammed by them, don't assume anyone else is. I'd never bought anything from either dealer due to plain not having the spare cash as I have a lot of birthday's coming up, and none of those people are watch-fiends (would have at least given me the opportunity to 'test the waters') but seeing how the Cartel have and are operating, I will never spend a cent on their products, not even straps, because I do not do business with people I cannot trust.

I think the most reasonable solution is to remove all links to the Cartel's sites, and IP Ban the dealers. All this "give them a chance to make things right" is giving them a sign that people still want/need to do business with them, so are prepared to forgive and forget. Sorry, but that is not the way to deal with people like this. As has been pointed out, we are Occidentals looking at this from a Western perspective on business, what we need to do, is deal with it as Asians would. There has been, at the risk of sounded melodramatic, dishonor. It is possible to make restitutions to those wronged to restore honor (see Yakuza codes) It is also possible to simply sever all business ties. If we as a community allow them to continue to post to the boards and deal through the forum, they will take that as a sign of weakness, and in time, when things have died down, standards will start to slip again. To respond to the boldened point. Andrew used to make mistakes, that in itself is understandable, no one in any business hits the ground running and 100% perfect from day one. However, what the events mentioned in this thread have proven, is that Andrew either has, or certainly is, backsliding towards his old habits. As has been mentioned by someone else, this is a totally Asian approach to business, and the only way to actually get the job done as requested, is to 'stand there and watch them do it'. That is why, as I said above, anything less than a total ban could be taken as a sign of weakness and an invitation for further abuses of trust in the future. I am not saying that they should be removed from the boards and never to be spoken of again, as, if someone was to come to the forums and still wanted to do business with them, then they should be allowed to do so, ie given all the facts and history, given a url via PM, and basically told to buy at their own risk, as giving them a partial allowance, where abuses can still occur, and newcomers might not realize that abuses of trust took place. Just my .2c...

I agree entirely with this, but, I would not give them the benefit of the doubt to be reinstated. People have been lied to, manipulated, and their trust abused. If they are the kind of people who will do it once, I fear they are the kind of people who may do the same in the future, particularly if there ever comes for a request for suppliers to create another unusual watch (as with the B&R Scenario)

If the posts over at RWG are anything to go by, it is a storm in a teacup, as when I did what I was the right thing about informing the people there what had been discovered, they were very much "Josh has always been fine with me, so I'll continue buying from him..." It's crazy of these people to think that this won't eventually affect them. Well, I've done all I can do by making them aware of the situation, afterall, that's what these forums are for.

In most cases, yes. I can't even pronounce the name of my dealer, but I still trust them. It's like companies that outsource call centers to India, and the employees all use Anglicanized names...

If the information is different to what you first posted, then it stands to reason that Angus lied in one of the messages. Doesn't matter which one, the fact is, either way, you were lied to, either as an outright lie, or an attempt of manipulation. Not the kind of conduct supposedly trustworthy people engage in...

Then why sell straps and other accessories? [Edit to add] My point was not to find fault with Joshua not selling spares as a regular occurence, but to point out an example of how the Cartel tell people what they want them to think, knowing that their reputations (at the time) would mean people would take them at their word and stop looking for the item they were looking for.

As I said before:

That email, is little more than propoganda on the part of the Cartel. They know that (untill yesterday) they had spotless reputations, and people believed anything they were told by them. If they tell someone that something isn't available (as a way of stopping someone looking further) then someone is likely to believe them. I emailed Joshua a while back about the possibility of purchassing one of the new SMP dials which are sans 3 marker, only to be told flat that the dials were not available. At the time, I accepted that. But thinking about it, it is a load of BS. How many times has someone said they got a watch with a dodgy dial, only to then be shipped a new dial to swap over? If they can do it for X watch, they can do it for Y watch. The difference in circumstances, is that I was not seeking a replacement for a faulty item I had purchassed from them, so they have nothing to gain in letting me have a dial. The pittance they could charge for the dial would be nothing compared to what I would pay if I decided to just buy the whole watch... Sure, Joshua might not sell spares as a part of his website, but he could sure as hell lay his hands on one of the dials if he wanted to, or failing that, give the name of a contact who could... Of course, the price of a replacement dial, is simply not worth it, so I got a very swift and polite rejection.

Olivia, I already posted an email I received from another member who also pointed out that King was part of the Cartel. I am not naming names as it was a private transaction, but they had absolutely no reason to lie, or to mention it if it was not true. I believe Andrews comments about King being part of the Cartel for two reasons 1) he has no reason to lie about it. 2) I have heard independant of anyone who posted in this thread that King is part of the Cartel.

Why are people so keen to defend people that have lied to and manipulated others? Why are people suggesting they be 'given time' to make ammendments? This isn't Time Out for bad behaviour, and it does not take a month to ammend a website. Even if the websites were ammended, what is to stop the Cartel continuing to give people watches with movements in that are not as advertized? or what is to stop them buying up all the stock of the good watches so the smaller dealers can't get a look in? Was this website not created to identify and name scammers (of whatever variety) so people would not get ripped off? I am as shocked as anyone else that Andrew and Joshua would behave in this manner, but the point is, when people have been lied to and manipulated thusly, why do those responsible even deserve a second chance? All that does is give them a second chance to rip people off. Turning the other cheek doesn't solve anything, it just gets you slapped harder.

I completely agree with you there, I was just saying, as Olivia seemed to not understand what people's issues were, that Edge's (and everyone else's) issues was not primarily about price increases, but the dishonest and manipulative behaviour on the part of the Cartel (which would eventually lead to price rises) and that the best way to prevent those rises occuring, was to act against their dishonest and manipulative behaviour. This is the thing though. He/they were doing us a favor by getting the B&R made, where they went wrong was by lying about the movement that was put inside it. This isn't an expression I'd heard before visiting forums, but this is a classic case of 'buddy [censored]ing'... Doing someone a favor, but also ripping them off at the same time.

Oh I quite agree with what you're saying about how it will eventually allow the Cartel to charge what they want, and I find that disturbing as well, however, what I find more disturbing, and a more pressing issue, is that people have been lied to about product. I believe that is what Edge is refering to by saying 'price is not the issue'. At the moment, price is not the issue. If the Cartel are allowed to continue, then prices could become an issue, but, by showing these people the door, they are not going to be in a position to influence the changes enough to affect the price. By dealing with the issue that they have lied to and manipulated people (as the emails clearly showed), that completely avoids the potential issue of them becoming able to influence prices, so yes, while price is ultimately a concern, it is by no means the most pressing one, and I suspect that is what Edge and others are pointing out. I was simply illustrating the posts to Olivia, which had been previously posted at Pug's request, yet Olivia was still apparently oblivious to the fact that King is part of the Cartel.

Olivia, King is part of the Cartel. Andrew said so himself a month ago: http://www.replica-watch.info/forum/viewto...p=138896#138896 I posted this yesterday so you could read it. Did you also miss this? http://www.replica-watch.info/forum/viewto...p=138054#138054 As has been said a dozen times price is not the issue. People are [censored] off at having been lied to about product, and are concerned that the Cartel are trying to push out smaller dealers by buying up all the stock of the really good reps. That is what people are concerned about. Not price.

Consider it done, Amigo. http://www.replica-watch.info/forum/viewto...p=138054#138054 http://www.replica-watch.info/forum/viewto...p=138896#138896 First post was dated Feb 7 07, Post two dated Feb 8 07.

12 hours ago, I would have agreed with you and said "so what if they have the same suppliers", but the thing that struck me, was that my contact specifically used the word 'Cartel'. When they made the comment, it meant nothing to me. Having read this thread, it takes on a whole new meaning, and it sounds like this cartel is trying to play people for chumps, and is guilty of the very behaviour this forum exists to prevent.

I am not going to name names, but this is from an email I received last week from a member over a private sale. I didn't think anything about it at the time, as I had heard that Andrew and Joshua had the same suppliers, but, having seen the posts in this thread, feel it is 'evidence'. Once more, I am not naming names, but this was the information I received in a capacity wholly unrelated to this topic.