TeeJay

This is very true, which is why I like to be as precise as possible with what I say so my intentions are clear

Hi Woody, Thanks for accepting the apology with the spirit it was intended with, and sorry for assuming you were born in America. Pilot Chrono? Not too sure what watch you're refering too. I've seen a rather nice GMT II for

It was never my intention to be in any way glib about Chinese Business Practices, but to be as mindfull of cultural sensitivity as possible, while getting over (intentionally) the point that acceptable business practices are different all over, and people need to be aware of that before crying foul. For example. I have read complaints left about my dealer where people have had an issue and had to ship the goods back to China, and did not seem to understand why they had to ship them back to China rather than Canada, where the dealer lives. If those people could get it through their thick skulls that the product is not coming from Canada but coming from China, it would not be hard to understand why they have to go back to China in the event of a problem, and they would then not complain about the destination they have to ship to in the unfortunate event of a mistake. (which can happen with dropshipping) I have three potential dealers lined up who I plan to order from over the next 3 months. When I have evaluated their product and business ethic, I will be more than happy to pass on the names, but at present, I do not want to recommend people look at them as I cannot personally vouch for them, and I would not want people to think I was promoting poor dealers.

Hi Woody, I'm sorry if you took my comment to be harsh or offensive, it was certainly not intended to be. If I may make an observation, I see that you live in America. Would I be correct in thinking that you, and your parents were raised in America rather than China? If so, I would like to respectfully point out, that your cultural values would be rather westernized, rather than entirely Chinese in nature. If this is an incorrect assumption, then I apologize for my assumption. The point I am trying to make, is that the values of an Asian-American will be quite different to those of a Chinese person living in China. My experiences have been with people from Hong Kong who came to the UK to study, and people from Shanghai who moved to the UK as an outlet for their business (dress making) in China. While I would not like to 'tar everyone with the same brush', it has certainly been my experience (and also the experience of others) that people from China have had a very similar outlook and approach to life, which Chinese people I know who were born and raised in the UK did not have. Once more, my apologies if you took offense at my comments, I was merely trying to make people more aware of the cultural differences involved so they could better understand some of the behaviours reported. As I said to Robertk: I NEVER said one was good, one was bad, I said that the two are VERY DIFFERENT and what is acceptable to one group, is not acceptable to the other. That does not mean one is better than the other, it just means they are DIFFERENT. Those differences need to be acknowledged and understood so they can be anticipated and overcome.

Perhaps a little more lenient than I would have been in the circumstances, but, I must admit and agree with the other comments that this is a very fair outcome. I hope the dealers in question appreciate the opportunity they have been given and will work with the mods and admin to ensure such concerns need not be raised in the future. Best regards to all.

Amen to that.

I read on another forum that someone's boss bought a gen Rolex, but got rid of it because his buddies kept asking if it was fake or not. The guy collected vintage Ferraris, so why they thought he'd wear a fake Rolex I don't know That said, as I've said a few times, I wouldn't buy any gen even if I had more money than Bill Gates, simply because I don't think they are worth the price. The most I'd pay for a watch is about $200, and that would be really pushing things. I'm such a scrooge My preference has switched to Omega as well. I agree with your point people don't even assume they might be fake, but I like them better because of the better quality clasps, clearer dials and larger hands, which make them easier to read at a glance:)

Let me make somethings VERY CLEAR here: If my thinking is biased, it is biased by my experiences dealing with the Chinese on a personal and professional level for over a decade. It is biased by OBSERVATION and FACT, and an understanding of both cultures, not ignorant racial prejudice. I NEVER said one was good, one was bad, I said that the two are VERY DIFFERENT and what is acceptable to one group, is not acceptable to the other. That does not mean one is better than the other, it just means they are DIFFERENT. Those differences need to be acknowledged and understood so they can be anticipated and overcome. No, I am British. I don't care who replaces them, as long as they are HONEST. My dealer is Chinese. We are good friends, and he has always done the utmost to make sure I get precicely what I ask for, even to the point of swapping straps for me (hence my black dial Daytona on tan leather) I couldn't care less where these dealers are FROM as long as they are HONEST.

While I see what you're saying, I find it dissapointing that there are not more people totally up in arms about this issue, as it is something that affects everyone here.

As been pointed out, when it comes to business, the Chinese will say whatever they think you want to hear to get your business, but then do whatever they want. Someone else pointed out that US companies had to maintain an active presense in their 'outsourced' businesses if they wanted things to be run as per US Standards. The thing that was also pointed out, was that this is a purely Chinese trait, and that the Japanese are totally fine to do business with. (Personally, I've found that Thai people are also totally fine to do business with) And no, practicing Jeet une Do doesn't count And yes, that was the point I was trying to make about giving them 2nd chances.

I quite agree with what you're saying, and if we were talking about Western dealers, then I would agree, a lesson could be learned and trust rebuilt over time, but we are not. We are talking about Chinese Dealers, who have different cultural values and considerably different business ethics, and what works to make one group repentant, the other group will simply see as a green light to continue as before, and I've found it frustrating that people don't seem to be taking that information on board.

Given your comment to the dealers and the fact that you think that those relationships are salvagable, it is pretty clear that you are not prepared to accept the points I have made, so I will not waste any more of my time trying to make them. If you want to continue to deal with the Cartel, that is by all means your right, but given the information that has been posted, I would think anyone who still felt they were trustworthy is doing little more than lying to themselves, and deserving of whatever happens. I've given the information that I had to help others, if they choose to ignore that information, so be it.

I'd like to think I've been nothing but polite in my discussions here. My use of the term buddy [censored]er might come across as less than, but to be honest, I cannot think of any other phrase to appropriately describe that kind of behaviour. I can see what you're saying, but as others have pointed out, a n00b scammer would be instantly banned, would they not? That being the case, why should the Cartel be shown any less stringent behaviour? After all, by being trusted members of the community, that makes their behaviour more distastefull, because it was directed to people who respecetd and trusted them. It just seems to me that people want to 'give them a chance' because they were trusted members, which is admirable, but, that kind of leniency does not translate into Chinese Business Practice, and would simply be taken as weakness, and it is the apparent inability to grasp these cultural differences, and the implications on how things should proceed, that I have found a tad frustrating.

Sorry to hear about the chip in the crystal. You could always get a new crystal installed though... As for SMP or Rolex Sub nodate. Hmmmm indeed Personally, I hate having to change the date at the end of the month, but, the SMP dial is more easily readable than a Rolex dial... What is more important feature to you? Ease of visibility of the dial, or the no date?

What's the deal? Who knows. Depends what the admin on the various forums are prepared to do about the situation.

I really do not mean to come over as a last word freak (although I know I can appear that way) it is just a case of I have found out and posted information about the Cartel which proved their dishonesty, I have pointed out the differences in cultural attitudes prevelent and how they cannot be dealt with in Western Terms, so I just find it frustrating when people appear to ignore that evidence and still believe that there is a more diplomatic sollution, despite being shown evidence to the contrary. Peace out.

What I believe, is not the point. The point is the facts that have been PROVEN (by both myself and others) that they would be a continued detriment to the community. Self-aggrandizing narcissism? How is my pointing out facts self-aggrandizing or narcissistic? If you do not understand why I continue to, not challenge your desire, but point out the uselessness of it, then I have clearly wasted my time in pointing out the lies and manipulations that these dealers are guilty of, and I find that more than a tad frustrating. If you want dealers, I have GIVEN YOU dealers, both here and elsewhere, so why keep believing that some arrangement can be made with the Cartel for them to return here as trusted dealers? You've been given the facts, why are you refusing to accept them? That is my only reason for challenging what you have said, because to be honest, you sound like you are saying "I don't care if Andrew and Josh rip people off, they were popular guys, so I'm going to buy from them regardless of the proof being that they cannot be trusted." I don't mean to put words into your mouth, but that is what your message is coming across as. And so by extension, it comes across that if you think it's okay to keep dealing with them here despite the risk of getting ripped off, then it's okay for others to deal with them here and also possibly get ripped off. If people want to keep dealing with the Cartel, then fine, that's their right. But. This forum exists to inform people about dealers who ARE trustworthy and warn them about ones who are not, not allow people to potentially get ripped off by dealers who WERE trustworthy, have now 'gone over to the Dark Side', but are still being 'given the chance' to make things right.

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree with you there. Sure, my initial experience of a product might be influenced by advertising, but my continued favortism of one brand over another, is the result of my own experiences, as I said about in the thread about Rolex straps and clasps, in that I do not judge a product on the prestige of its name, but the quality of it as a product. Quick example. I prefer Pepsi to Coke. Always have. Although I will drink Coke if I have to, my preference is for Pepsi, because it is sweeter. However, Coke is the much more widely advertised product. On the contrary, I am by nature a negotiator myself (I'm a Libra, so it goes with the territory) I'm perfectly willing to listen to both sides, and am better than most at seeing someone else's point of view, even when it isn't my own, but, I have absolutely no tollerance for liars of any kind. As someone else pointed out, and has gone unnoticed, we are, for the most part, Occidentals looking at this from a Western Business point of view. The point I'm trying to make, is that the Cartel Dealers have a different set of Cultural Values to us in the west. Doesn't make them bad people, but it does mean that they can only be trusted to act according to those cultural values. That is why I have kept trying to point out that 'partial restrictions' would be useless, as to people with Chinese cultural values, that is taken as weakness, and an opportunity to continue as before, and it frustrates me when people do not understand this, and, out of the goodness of their hearts, want to give them a second chance, oblivious to the fact that it will not be viewed as kindness or a second chance, but merely an opportunity to continue as usual, because the behaviour has been 'tollerated and excused'. And the point I've tried to make, is the dealers will not address it. Andrew and Angus have both commented on this thread and both were proven to be lying to get themselves off the hook, so that was not addressing anything. As I said above, people need to realize that they are dealing with a very different set of cultural values to their own, where the truth is as fluid as water as long as it serves its purpose. And as I answered you, of course it would be doing this community a service, because it would mean the dealers who have been proven to be liars and manipulators will not be around to continue to do so. As I said, there are OTHER dealers available besides the Cartel. There are other dealers HERE. There are other dealers on cqout. I can't vouch for their honesty as I have not yet used their services, but I would rather risk money on a new dealer than risk money on one who had been proven a liar. Like I said. $20 (appx) Rolex. Might not be a spot on accurate rep (I haven't seen one yet, so I can't say it is), but, for $20 it's certainly a good start for a conversion project, or as a watch that would only be worn when you wear the 'good shoes'. If you're concerned about the community, then maybe rather than trying to negotiate with people who will only lie again, it might be more productive to seek out new lines of supply.

No, legitimate advertising does not involve subterfuge. That is called False Advertising, and I bet there are laws against it in America just as there are laws against it here in England. This is not a legal business, so no one (on either side) has any legal comback should someone come up short on a deal, so it relies on people being 100% honest in all matters of their dealings. Correct me if I'm wrong, this board operates and survives to prevent people from being scammed. Yes? No? Would the behaviour of the Cartel be tollerated in some n00b Scam Dealer? Of course it would not. The fact it is being done by people who have become a part of the community makes it even worse, it makes them buddy [censored]ers, not just scammers. Do you like being ripped off? If not, why tollerate it?

Dude, are you serious?? What is reliable about someone who lies to and manipulates customers/potential customers, and who willingly missrepresent their product hoping no one will find out? Did you not see the comments pointing out that this is a wholly Asian approach to business? This is not an aberration of behaviour, but Standard Operating Procedure. How many times do I have to say it before people start to listen?? Giving people like this a 'second chance', is only giving them a second chance to continue to lie and rip people off. It would not be tollerated in a n00b scam dealer, and likewise cannot be tollerated by these dealers, just because they are popular. The fact they are popular makes their behaviour even worse, because it makes them 'buddy [censored]ers'. These 'accusations' are PROVEN FACTS. People, myself included, have posted private emails, found posts on other forums, pointed out the lies in the 'defensive' posts of Cartel Dealers in this very thread. At what point will it start sinking in that these dealers HAVE abused people's trust, and if given the chance to do so again, WOULD do so?? Sure, they are charging less than some of the Major scam sites, but they are still liars. It doesn't matter if you're being lied to a little or a lot, when at the end of the day, you are still being lied to! I'm pretty new to the community, so I have no personal bonds with these dealers. For those who have developped good relations with them, I'm sure it is scary to think "Where'm I going to get my watches from now?" The ARE other dealers available. There are other dealers available RIGHT HERE. There are other dealers on cqout. I've seen Rolexes on cqout for

For the experience you described, I certainly would. Most of the people I associate with wouldn't even know what a Panerai was (I hadn't even heard of them till I started browsing the forums) so they'd certainly never spot the tells. I am also something of a new 'convert' to Panerai, although I think my favorites are still Omega (won't know for sure till I actually get my hands on a Panerai) I'm planning on getting my father in law one for his birthday, so I'll be giving that a very careful examination when I get it, possibly even draping it over the wrist to see how it looks before wrapping it up That will decide if I actually then buy one for myself or not... I agree completely, as that is how I feel about my 2531.80 project watch. I know it's inaccurate, but there's something perversely loveable about it

Wow, that is a really unique project, I am very impressed by the work that's gone into it

I truly sympathise, nothing is more disappointing than ordering something and it not being what you wanted it to be. Even if you can't intercept the postman, I'm sure Josh will allow you to simply return the watch unworn (because obviously you wouldn't wear it without the 3 marker) so all you have to do, is insist on a refund. As I said yesterday, the option does exist of this watch: http://www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=2493536 which may or may not have a flat dial, but, with the refunded money, you could order that watch and source a gen dial from ofrei.com if the dial on the watch is flat. It definitely has the 3 marker on the dial, so there should be no issue of the date window lining up. You never know, for all we can tell, the dial might be perfect, but the pictures make it impossible to tell. As I said before, if I had the spare money, I would have already ordered one of the watches as the price is good enough to make it worth the risk, but other commitments mean I can't do that for a while, and that bugs me. On the subject of the New SMP and the hopes for one with the red lettering, from the pictures posted of it, I do not like how the letters in Omega are joined. It makes the watch (despite being genuined) look fake. (and I do mean fake, rather than replica, as replicas are at least of decent logo printing) so even if it was manufactured, I would not buy it, as even if the details were accurately replicated, it would 'look' like a 'fake', and probably get called out in the same way that people assume that anything with Rolex on the dial is fake, regardless of if it is genuine or not

Never disapointed, but, I do wish it was my Planet Ocean...

That's cool, I can certainly understand that. I admit, I wish I could see the dial better myself, but, in general, the watch looks pretty good. If I had the cash, I'd buy one, even if it then meant getting a gen dial from ofrei, as the price is definitely right. I just wish I didn't have presents that I have to buy before I can treat myself to anything, or I'd've already ordered one. Two things about the watch that impress me, are the color and texture of the bezel insert, and, the positioning of the HEv. From the picture, it does appear to be offset above the 10 as it should be.