mag1119

The Zigmeister, Let me add my humble remarks to that which has already been said. I am a relative newcomer to this board, but have seen and respected your work and integrity from all of the other boards. You are one of (if not THE) most respected craftsman and resident experts we have, and it is a loss for us all to lose you here, or anywhere. You would dispute it yourself, but for most of us it is from your words to our watches as if spoken to by a Higher Power, that is the respect you have created and deserve. It is a tribute that it is for professional and ethical reasons that you have come to the conclusion you have about staying - HERE. We (here) will miss you, and hope that you will remain there for us on these boards to some degree that we may still hungrily partake of your wisdom, professionalism and exacting standards. I have learned a tremendous amount about the inner workings of our pieces from your posts, our hobby (obsession) would not be the same without you. Take good care, happy holidays, and I hope to continue to see you around and draw on your expertise.

Good job, sweet! These are no longer active, don't know yet if e-bay is pursuing, usually they don't without a criminal complaint.

What's up, Tee-Jay? You already know where I stand on this issue; it appears most everyone here has a slice of right. We probably do overestimate the number of reps vs. gens on the market, but that should serve only to highlight the expertise in our community at telling good from bad reps and buying accordingly. WE as a community are NOT making that big a dent in gen sales, and certainly not rep sales either. We probably DO represent a decent number of sales or the reps would not improve in quality or delivery to us, we do mean SOMETHING. The gen companies have more than a few reasons to not actively pursue the rep industry at this time; and if and when they DO, it will be the 2nd coming of the RIAA. It has to do with the closedness of this hobby in my opinion. Do you remember how hard it was for most of us to even FIND these sites and decent info? And WE were actively seeking it.! There aren't enough folks even aware of the quality that exists and is improving in the rep world for the economics to begin to affect the gen world. Also, as long as there are mechanical and material differences between gens and reps (especially on the quality side), not many people outside of our community would trade the pride and prestige often associated with gen ownership. Those are the gen buyers, with disposable income AND mindset for the genuine atricle. As long as the gen companies continue to reap profit from here, we are no threat to their market share. As rep quality improves (cosmetically AND mechanically) perhaps this may change. If you could consistently get 1:1 cosmetically, and mechanically, then that would be more of an issue for the gen makers. There are also the politics: you are not going to get the world's number 1 copy cat nation to just stop by politely asking. China is too important to the world economy for the watch industry to really call shots with them, yet. A lot of planets would have to shift and it would have to become important to the REST of the world to change how the Chinese are operating in the new global economy. Stop copying and repping? Stop repping what? Computers, electronics, clothes, watches, toys, medicines, where to start? This industry is so much of a machine for the total Chinese economy I don't see them pulling the plug unless REAL pressure were brought to bear. That being said, it is an improbability, NOT an IMPOSSIBILITY. Just as these Chinese made changes to join the global economy, there are countries and companies trying to bring pressures and laws against their behavior, one day they may gain some sway. So, the economy and marketplace itself may cause course correction we have no control over. This is the famous "get your reps NOW theory" before or if things were to change. Last point. I do believe the growth of the rep industry has helped the prices of gens to stay as they have been for several years, all time highs, but not wild growth. This has as much to do with currency evaluation as anything else. Everything costs more, it's called inflation. As long as the numbers of reps increase, the gen is devalued. Not in such a manner that your 10K watch is worth $500.00 suddenly, but it ain't worth 12.5K either, the reps have something to do with that, if only to provide a counterpoint to gen pricing. When it affects the gen bottom line enough- they will react. Right now they do everything from bolster the rep prices, to ignoring the phenomonon, let them stay that way until we've collected all we can. I still have songs from my old Napster.

Good job, jawo. Use the search button on Google or one of the other sites and find member fakemaster's list of scam dealers and associated sites. Unreal!! The numbers out there are staggering as to how many people get ripped off trying to find either a site like this one, or decent info. Keep up the good work, by all means.

Don't know who this dealer was, and personally I don't care, but you should share the info so others don't get the same treatment. Whether he ships the watch personally, or under his auspices, this is horrendous and I would not do any future business with him. To me, either this is a GROSS oversight (you wanting the watch quickly has NOTHING to do with it, we ALL want watches quickly - and often ask for faster delivery time) or a blatant attempt to just "pass off" a piece of his damaged goods - both of which are totally unacceptable. These are the sort of things this forum and others seek to eliminate, and we should know who this is - either on this post or in the dealer section. Let this dealer stand up and explain and account for his actions. And then he has the nerve to blame you on top. Please put him on "blast" so that the forum can put this type of service on ice.

You most certainly have the right to your views, defacto, and in fact I don't know of any member who would disagree with the point you make, I think we ALL know the difference between a rep and a gen. Not at all. I just feel the point of this thread was to call out the reasons a great deal of hobbyists and collectors do so(collect or prefer reps) in the first place, not CONFUSING the two. We all know the difference, some people PREFER reps, that's all. The people who get so caught up that they actually THINK their rep really IS a gen are the folks I think your comment is better directed towards. Ask THOSE people if they know the difference; are they thinking or feeling their reps (no matter how "super" or modded) are the real thing or better? Are they building watches close to gens or fantasy watches that have movements and parts either equal to or even superior TO a gen (also a very admirable pursuit, I might add) for whatever reason. Two VERY different points of view, see what I mean?

Missing the point. Some folks enjoy collecting the reps and for whatever reasons, don't want to collect gens. They may be perfectly happy with the rep in the garage. Whether it is because they like to mod their own, cannot or will not spend for a gen, or because for the price they can own MORE than one watch. Their feeling about what is "in the garage" is their own. No one is comparing the two on that basis, just that different people have different reasons for collecting what they do. Some folks are perfectly happy with one gen; some are happy with one rep; others want more than one, rep or gen. Question posed was more of what makes one happy about their passion, not to simply compare reps to gens. That comparison is what led us all here in the first place.(A gen is a gen; a rep is only a replica or copy of a gen; that much is a given. Only small minds confuse the two.) If you prefer gens alone or above rep collecting, fine, it's your call. But for someone else, the rep passion may be stronger than the desire to hobby in gens, for whatever reason. I think the direction was if you are more into the rep collecting than gen collecting; why is it?

Hey there justaguy88, Very keen observation, one that goes to the very core of our hobby. You can see from the replies thus far that we're separated into several camps on this topic, but that some basic and common threads run through us all. One, admit it or not, we collect these things from an economic standpoint, no matter WHAT the underlying reason(s). Affordability, larger collection than a gen collection, doesn't matter - financial consideration is there. Two, there is the love of the hobby itself, or of collecting. Many members collect other things as well. Me, personally, I collect a few other things: Jeff Hamilton and sports themed exotic jackets and coats; comic book and superhero collectible items, die-cast cars and planes to mention a few. Whether from admiration to ownership, or even vicariously living are some of my reasons. All of these reasons (as with everyone's own reasons) add up to the pleasure involved. If your reason (one of mine, too, I admit), is rep-perfection and quality, so be it. I respect and admire you for it. I own several gens, and while I will acquire more, I collect gens for their reasons, and reps for theirs as well. Sometimes those reasons overlap, and that's fine with me. The love of a mechanically sound piece of work, the history associated, the look, the feel, whatever floats your boat, I say. If one PREFERS gen collecting, then the reasons they would own a rep is far different than someone who lives to mod watches. What cracks me up are the folks who aren't even honest with themselves as to why they acquire reps. If your intent is to fool everyone at your office, or elsewhere, so be it, that is fine by me - even if it may not be my own cup of tea. If you are the kind of person who has tinkered with anything moving since Erector Sets, have at it, by all means. If you feel gens are too overpriced and this is your stab at the watch companies, slide right in here, there's room for you as well. It is a wide spectrum of people and reasons and I for one am glad to have this and other quality forums to learn, discourse and understand. A little self-reflection never hurt. Heck, I'm even practicing self-restraint and fiscal soundness or I'd have a second mortgage about now, for reps, gens and everything else I would see and want in this instant gratification world we live in. Great topic, thanks for giving ME a moment to pause and reflect.

You are right also, Pugwash. Not only would a boycott not change this, an organized boycott won't happen in my opinion. The world market is too scattered and there are too many people willing to pay whatever they are being charged. As long as the demands for service and quality are there, and the price of reps remains a fraction of gens, the market will florish. The only way the "market" is going to act in unison is if the prices become so onerous that people stop buying as much INDEPENDENTLY of each other, and the cumulative effect drives things down, like the comic book markets in the '90's. Just like people are willing to pay the higher prices independently of each other, if that all stopped (beacause each buyer made the decision for themselves) the number of people wiling to pay anything will be washed away by the number of people wanting stability,and then prices will stop rising, or rising so quickly.

Right on, TeeJay!! On the contrary to some posts, I think WE ALL know this is a black market business, and hence the reason for despair over the lack of input/influence over pricing. The obvious choice is to vote with your feet or your money, and that is the ultimate recourse. Yes, you MIGHT find the same goods for less, you may not. You MAY be willing to sacrifice some aspects of doing business with the dealers on the forums, some may not. - let alone try to force the prices down. The global economy confirms there is room for these increases and until they become so outrageous or egregious that masses of buyers stay away (which I doubt) prices will continue to be where they are, or even higher as other forces besides the alleged price gouges come into play. What happens if the alleged movement shortage, or Chinese economic and political forces affect things? Much as folks rail against TTK and others, they do not control this, but their prices would be affected by it. I agree with TeeJay about this fact as well: "As with anything, be it a watch, a pair of shoes, even just a CD, my opinion has always been "It costs what it costs" If one can afford it, buy it. If one can't afford it, save up. If one doesn't agree with the price, seek out a cheaper alternative... Take heed and understanding to claims made by dealers such as TTK when he states some of his costs of doing business and subsequent pricing for services we often take for granted, and that would add significantly to the prices if they weren't there. If one wants to operate outside the known playing field, then these are risks and costs that WILL be borne. It will still come down to cost and whether it is worth it to act in any given way, buyer or seller.

It seems that there is enough validity to go around on both sides, and while a necessary fair compromising point is needed (especially by the buyers and selers who frequent these boards) I wonder how we will reach it. As with any buyers of ANY goods and services - the lowest possible prices are sought, I'm sure we agree there. On the sellers' side is the marketplace, FMV (fair market value), cost of doing business (including all of the factors mentioned by TTK), the level of service, convenience and security offered by forum listed sellers, and the ability and right to make a fair profit for said goods and services. Where is that point, and who sets these levels? Most of the other statements (albeit factual) are ancillary to this. Yes, there ARE other places to shop, yes, the dealers can (and some do) profit and thrive on the uninitiated and higher prices to make up for their own cost of business, some raise their prices when they see we will pay more for the product with NO increase in product, QC, or services rendered; some lesser (in terms of quality and service) dealers are just riding the wave of increased prices. There exists NO consensus on either side as there is no collective way to organize either buyers or sellers in any meaningful way. For every dealer who absorbs costs and tries to keep prices decent - there are others who will keep jacking them up. For every buyer - or group of buyers who would act collectively to try and hold prices down - there are scores who would pay anything for any watch, knowingly or from ignorance. How and where do we bridge this gap, or is this the world OUR hobby/passion/obsession is destined to exist and stay in?

By-Tor, Although I have responded to this particular review of yours, your comment here made me have to chime in to agree. Even though I am one of those people who are partial to chronos and to Daytonas to start with, this model is too clean and sharp of lines to ignore. I had a SS blackface to begin with, and as soon as I saw the whiteface, I had to get one. It just looked more refined whereas the blackface looks very sporty. It (28k vph secs@6 A-7750 new version) has not disappointed or let me down yet. I get at least 30-36 hours of power reserve, have never (yet) had a problem with the chronos - setting and resetting; and love it through and through. This watch was taking a pounding on most of the forums until your review, and folks started looking a lot more closely at this beauty, my thanks and appreciation once again.

I am ordering a PAM 251 Daylight and would not have it any other way but with a SS bracelet. Some of the less busy Panerai look great with leather, but I personally prefer SS. It makes the watch look less molitary and more dress worthy.

Excellent post, ubi.! I own several Daytonas and between your post and By-Tor's post about these pieces the topic was covered both mechanically and cosmetically, many thanks. I have gathered a lot of the info presented, but not in as concise a form as this.

You know they will, and call it something like PVDlesium!

Thanks again, freddy!! At almost 20K USD, I think I'll be waiting on a better developed rep. Great looking piece, wonder how Rolex missed the boat on this one, it would sell like hotcakes.!

Thanks to both freddy333 and to rekoo1 for your replies. It seems from The Zigmeister's post that this is a power issue (stressing the already stressed movement) which is done by way of the oil causing it to require more power to function. My question now becomes: how much oil is the right amount and how much is too much? Parts that essentially need lubrication in order to continue to function can only go so long without before failure, no? The friction caused by the oil is different than the friction caused by no lubrication at all. Having the power used to run the watch resisting dry friction is a different animal than oil caused friction, is it not? In which case the (extra) oil would be akin to walking through oil or mud on a hot day on a sidewalk. Which is worse, the friction of walking on a dry surface, or the extra resistance of walking through the oil? Is there a safe median? rek001, I need to look at CQout a bit closer. My question was is there a gen of this watch or is it fantasy? One needs to know before wearing a fantasy watch; if one exists in the gen world, it makes a difference. rek001, I just checked it out on CQout. 21 jewel Japanese movement, no chronos. One is sticks, like shown here, the other iced out.

thanks for the quick reply, freddy. Problem is - I couldn't link back to the secs@6 article, and the search only got me to The Zigmeister's review of the secs@3. If you could put the post in your reply to me, I'd be more than happy to learn from it. From The Zigmeister's secs@3, what I have said I feel to be born out. That being said, I realize that does not apply to the secs@6.

Andreww, Why, oh why do you torture us so??? Since that is a completely different looking beast than I have ever seen before, and you say it is from a magazine, it must be a new gen, correct? It looks awesome!! When will it be available?

Interesting points made here. I have 2 secs @6 Daytonas, (cartel purchases) and since they have been broken in and running I have had no need to crack them open. My experience has been if it ain't broke - don't fix it - with reps. I've thought that the lack of lubrication would be a cause for concern, but I'm not sure I subscribe to the theorum that oils used FOR lubrication would add to friction. If it is a space issue,(lubricants plus crowded movement gears) then explain it to me, by all means. I do, chalk up each experience to luck and build of a particular watch on a particular day. Why, then, when serviced and lubed, do these movements seem to work well (again according to The Zigmeister)? Is it a certain AMOUNT of lubricants (or lack of) or something else entirely different?

Very nice watch, looks great with that strap, and I am a SS guy myself. Wear it in great stead.

TeeJay, You are 100% right about the reasons one buys a watch, and those rules apply to gens and reps. It all finally boils down to what is desired, acceptable, and affordable - and not necessarily in that order. I have wrestled with purchases of several different watches and finally settled on which watch from which dealer with exactly those parameters in mind. In some watches I want as close to 1:1 with a gen as I can get, again for varying reasons (where I am going to wear this watch, or what I may be doing functionally with it), other watches I want just as collectors' pieces or because I like the way they look; flaws and all; - heck, as was stated, some of the "flaws" I either like, or sometimes prefer. Often, known flaws are an indicator of the style, quality or version of a given rep. I guess the heart of this matter boils down to one's reason(s) for having this hobby, we all have our own. To sum up, the reason you buy any particular watch should be your own, and to satisfy any desire the buyer has. Oh, before I forget, I think the percentage of people who know even the slightest about watches as we do, or care, is probably closer to .000001 - AD's, jewelers, and collectors included. If you take into account that there are say, one hundred thousand knowledgable folks on these forums (and there isn't) and yearly estimates of 600K- 1M gens in a particular popular brand or two sold as well as an estimated 10 million rep Rolexes (alone) on the market, add it up over a say 5-10 year period and you have a great number of watches sold to and worn by people who aren't as scrutinizing as we are. So, TeeJay and others who point out that no one really notices or cares is correct. However, if you are trying to pass your rep OFF as gen (tacky, tacky) - especially in the wrong circles, you are increasing your chances for a call out. Even more so if you are wearing a cheaper made rep to boot, but again, to each their own. I enjoy my watches for what they are, their looks, function and feel, as I am sure the majority of us do. Enjoy, and happy hobbying.

Excellent post, I feel it represents the rep world as it exists and reflects our sentiments well.

Absolutely, By-Tor, absolutely. Although I hope the quality of the A-7750 improves over time (arguments go either way on this), and even though I have more than one that is working fine, I consider myself lucky and I am quick to point out that both of my Daytonas have distinct and separate personalities. Both took different times and methods to break in smoothly. I was SO pleased to read your review and that I had the exact watch (ss whiteface) you reviewed.

Great job, Nanuq!! What's funny to me is that most of the times I have had these type of encounters, they usually need to have several other salespeople or others there to make a "group" decision or opinion. Most of them (unless Rolex trained) have less knowledge about the watches than a great number of members on these forums. I've even seen them dispute and argue with each other. What's even funnier is when YOU ask them a question and they cannot answer or need to go running for help. Usually, I politely ask them 'How long have YOU been working for Rolex?' Even though you only have the one AD in your area, I'll bet the attitude is quite different if and when you visit again. Be sure to see the SAME salesperson!!