PAMman

I have an AD who knew that I had a genuine tritium dial & hands and a case, which he told me was also genuine (it was Jimmy's), and he didn't mind getting a crown and CG so that I could complete a watch using a decorated ETA 6497. This is a man who would shoot a rep wearer on sight. There is no way that I could even suggest getting one more. I got an additional polished CG via a different route (for my 029 which has one of these Ebay gen crowns) and I know that I can get one of the larger, brushed G series through the same channel but that's it. I will be keeping the larger CG for an ultimate 5218/201A rep.

I bought one genuine crown from an AD who ordered it specifically for my 111F. It cost me $35 and he apologised for the high cost of Panerai material. I also got a gen CG as well from the same source for less than the cost of a Jimmy Fu CG so there's no way that a crown for any Panerai is $350. If these crowns are rep then we ae being asked to believe that someone very capable and well equipped decided to copy the Panerai crown for the automatic models without any contact with the producer of rep watches or the rep community. In other words someone decided............"lets set up a manufacturing operation to replicate the crown for the automatic Panerais + a very few handwinds, then list them on ebay and see if anyone might want one". Plausable? NO! These crowns must be genuine and could only be, either; 1. out through the 'backdoor' of a current / recent supplier - it is well known that Panerai have changed component suppliers several times in the past 10 years, 2. surplus stock from a recent supplier who lost a contract, or 3. NOS from the preV era. We can probably discount No3 as these are mainly for auto movements and there were no preV autos, but it is known that the autos were planned for production so possibly some parts were commissioned and not used. Certainly it is understood that there was no transfer of spares from the old company to the new so whatever stock there was must have found its way onto the market somehow. If we forget the third option, that means that either these crowns were spirited out of a component manufacturers, obviously without consent as it would jeopardise the contractural arrangement, or sold as part of a job lot by a manufacturer who had already lost his contract to supply Panerai and decided to get rid of redundant stock. On balance my money is on option 2. Quite simply the replica theory doesn't stack up and the quality is 'Panerai' rather than rep.

Jimmy used his D series 001 as a pattern for a run of 200 pieces, intending to produce his own unbranded watch, but Panerai's action against RXW in Japan persuaded him that it wasn't a good idea. That's how his parts were subsequently sold on ebay as aftermarket spare parts. Jimmy Fu is a highly respected Paneristi and his picture features at various Panerai events.

The normal rule with Panerai is that the Tritium dialled watches did not have any AR but the later watches do. With the handwind watches this means that the preA and A series don't while B series onwards do. As the 063 is C series I would expect that it has AR and the multiple surfaces of the crystal and cyclops make AR more necessary. However the tint of the coating varies and some are colourless. For example my gen G series has a totally colourless coating. It is not visible in any way but it's totally effective. On a practical note, will the cement for the cyclops not damage the AR and mess up your DSN crystal?

I have both and while I agree that the UPO is the more accurate of the two watches the SMP 'feels' good on the wrist. However, mine is from the earlier run with segmented end-links and pins in the bracelet etc. The finish of the case is excellent with the brushed sides being better than the UPO. Also the UPO has a very sharp finish around the bezel unlike the gen. In short, the UPO may be visually the more accurate but the early version SMP has a slinky genuine feel which is rare and difficult to achieve in a rep. My advice - If you can find an early version SMP buy it in a heartbeat. You can get a UPO all day long.

Your normal rep crown is slightly less than 2mm thick to start with so I assume that the gap between it and the case is significantly less, although bigger than it ought to be. If you adjust the length of the stem, as you suggest, that should be enough to allow the crown to close closer to the case, unless it is a protruding case tube that's causing the problem. If you remove the movement and put the crown and stem into the empty case it should be obvious where the problem lies. However if you can get this adjusted so the the crown is visibly closer to the case then the lever will be hopelessly too short. You will definitely need a new CG or at least a new lever for your existing CG.

I see that one of the markers (at 9) is missing on Max's 3717. The gen doesn't have thick markers at 3, 6, 9 & 12 so I'm now wondering if these could be successfully removed and have the four markers relumed to get a smooth finish, like the gen. Has anyone tried?

I totally agree with The Zigmeister on the issue of modding gen parts to fit reps. I would much prefer to modify the rep to accept the genuine parts. I've used genuine dials, hands, crownguards and crowns to create franken PAMs and I know that the resale value of the parts is still secure. The finished watches have genuine Swiss movements and a mix of gen and rep parts and 'feel' genuine, but I may have to dismantle them again to get my money back. It's not going to happen soon.

If there was an easy way to sort out the pearl on the UPO I would be interested, only because the glass bit won't sit down into its frame and is sharp / rough to touch. Otherwise, I totally agree that throwing money at a rep doesn't make any sense. However it hasn't stopped me building franken Panerais, using gen parts where available. I suppose having hobbies doesn't make much sense at all.

If you're using a normal 44mm case Jimmy Fu's display caseback would suit you, It is a sterile SS frame with a glass window exactly the same dimensions as the gen item.

The genuine 5218/201A dial has the numbers and batons engraved into a brass dial, then lumed and the indices are filled with varnish, almost flush with the dial surface. An accurately cut sandwich dial could be modded to give a very good visual effect of the original dial but Davidsen

Don't know about the caseback but I was able to get 2 genuine F series CGs which were the same as the 195. I have one on my 029 and one on my preA1 franken at the moment so I'm not sure whether to use one of them instead of the original larger 005 CG if I get it PVD'd. I have some Jimmy Fu CGs so one of those would do the 029 and the gen 005 CG would be great for a 5218/201A if I ever get a proper dial sorted.

I fully agree with the patchy quality of the A - C series. I have a 029 with one of 'your' crowns Kruzer and this has caused me to examine every photo of gens that I have seen. On the gen 029, which were A & B series only, the crown thickness varies significantly and my 029 has a gen 111F CG which has a more flush pin than any original 029B. BTW the gen CG fits the gen crown on the rep 029 perfectly, without any adjustment of the lever.

The L SWISS MADE L appeared during the H series, so the one photograped in the comparison pic is late H or later. The scan which you have posted is one of the long arrow G series and all of the G series plus part of the H series had just L SWISS L. This thread is very useful as you can compare the shape of the normal 005 logo in the first post, the long arrow logo in your post and the 5218/201A logo in the signature of one of the other posts above. It should be fairly obvious that the 195 and 'long arrow' 005 logo is similar to the historic 5218/201A logo but different from the later 005. Within a few hours of me posting on a thread on this forum, discussing the logo shapes someone started a thread on Paneristi asking for comparison pics and opinions but it was concluded that all 3 were different. I'm not so sure that I agree that the 5218/201A is different from the 'long arrow' used on the 195 and early 005.

005 is a gen for sure. Correct A, correct shape logo, correct sub second hand, correct CG & crown. 111 is a rep - incorrect A, incorrect CG for that series, incorrect sub-second hand etc etc. Absolutely no doubt about it. Final answer, as Chris Tarrant would say.

Mine's an ETA and needed the silicone treatment too. Now it's fine.

The long arrow / normal arrow, short 3 / normal 3 is a genuine Panerai issue. The first appearance of the logo on the dial of the Vendome or Richmonde watches (Swiss watches) was in the limited edition of 200 units PVD'd 195. These were all engraved with the owner's name on the caseback. Then the 005 appeared in the G series as a SS watch and the first 80 approx 005s had the same dial as the earlier 195. The rest of the 005s had a similar dial except that the logo was slightly more compact with the arrow tips being slightly shorter. The susequent series H, I, J etc also have the normal more compact logos. Hence the 'long arrow' distinction which relates to approximately the first 80 005s. The shorter arrow dials also differed from the normal dials in that the top horizontal bar of the 3 was shorter than other Luminor dials, although there seems to be some inconsistency in this feature. I have seen long arow dials with normal 3s so possibly the rarest long arrow dials don't have a short 3. The rep which you have posted has the usual misshapen logo - it's too vertical. Also the rep has the wrong font with the crossbar of the A too low when compared to the gen. Hope this explains it.

If the lever won't close and there is no obvious point of contact I would be suspecting that the hinge pin may be bent. If the lever feels less sloppy than usual, when it's open, this might be the explanation. The normal rep CG usually flaps backwards and forwards without any problem so this weird.

Totally agree that the PAMs aren't complex and with the commonality of parts there's no excuse for not doing better. Take the 44mm handwinds - the cases are fine but the crowns and crownguards are not. Just 2 components and Jimmy Fu and Palpatine have shown that good CGs and crowns are entirely 'do-able'. Why can't our dealers sort this out. It must be a damn sight easier than repping the IWC Aquatimer's internal bezel or repping the GST or Inge's bracelet, both of which have been done to perfection. Come on, raise your game.

I could never understand the 'fans' either, until I remembered the old story of 'The Emperor

The least expensive PAM reps are those which don't need expensive repairs or upgrades in order to give YOU long term satisfaction. If it won't work properly or you instantly feel the need to 'fix' things, then don't go there unless you can sort it yourself.

This thread should be a wake up call to all Panerai collectors. Personally I have never accepted that Davidsen's stuff is anything other than DIFFERENT from the normal reps. For DIFFERENT read WORSE. Being different is the most annoying thing because his 44mm watches are dimensionally incorrect to the extent that gen / normal rep parts won't fit. I totally agree that his 111H dial is the worst ever but you can't replace it with any normal rep dial. He obviously has access to a bespoke dial printing service which I wish I could use to produce 100% accurate dials, but I would make sure that they were absolutely spot-on before anyone else ever saw them. His CGs are frequently of very poor quality with misshapen levers that don

I have got the blank brass dials sorted and accurate scans sorted but I can't source an engraver. Anyone out there???

In an attempt to create a limited run of a 100% accurate 5218/201A dial I have assembled all the necessary scans and measurements, including a genuine engraved dial. Does anyone have or have access to the skills of an engraver who could accurately engrave the digits and indicies onto a blank brass base dial?

Yep, it's a keeper for sure. I might get it PVD'd though.