tootall

Hey flamemax,

I would be willing to take a look at the jacket and make you 2 straps from it. If you need references of my work, let me know. I am sure many will speak highly of my work.

If you don't know the weight of the leather I would have to take a look at it and make sure it would work. Most jackets have a lining which is sometimes glued on and become a pain to take off and can damage the leather trying to remove.

Anyways, just PM me and let's work something out.

Hey, 029 is correct. It's the brother to the 063. I have this one on snakeskin. I think exotics look really good on GMT PAM's.

Great to hear that!!!

Can you tell if the 210 has been modded in any way by DSN ?

What colour Ammo do you recommend; black or natural/tan?

I like the brown colors.

The only black Ammo pouches were German or WWI Italian. Both of which I don't feel comfortable with.

Yes DSN has a 210 and it is beautiful. I had the 232 and I got the 210 instead. I love it! Besides my 111H, it's my favorite PAM. IMO, you really need an Ammo strap to look the best. The TWB strap will leave you not liking the 210 as much.

Here is a good comparison for the DSN 210 to a gen:

http://www.replica-watch.info/phpBB3/viewt...t=davidsen+base

I too agree with ssurfer. If it is located on the underside, that is ore likely that the buckle is the irritant.

Being allergic to leather is very very rare. You could be allergic to tanning chemicals and or dye's used, but most of those would have faded by the time you got your strap. So it's most likely and allergy to the buckle.

Hey vbarrett, yours sounds much like the same thing.

Winter is coming and thus dryer skin as well. This adds to any irritation and can become sore if not treated. I wouldn't recommend lotions as that could hurt the leather by getting into the fibers. Best method would be to clean the leather and make sure you are getting plenty of moisture yourself (I know it sounds weird, but there is a HUGE list of things that happen when your body is not properly hydrated)

A good leather cleaner is Lexol leather cleaner. It is ph balanced and works great. You could also use saddle soap, but I find it darkens leather too much. Lexol is light and does the job.

Palp crowns will soon be no more. Also, Jimmy Fu has ZERO desire to make any more crown guards. I must have asked him 6 times in the last 6 mos.

I received some Palp/PAM crowns with machining flaws. Missing metal etc.... if you get a good one, they're nice, but if you don't, it's really disappointing. Also, some of the Palp/PAM crowns are threaded at an angle so they install somewhat cockeyed. Your mileage may vary, so please no flames

I picked up a few of the GEN/Turkey crowns and had them sent to Vacuum. According to Sir Vac, they are super nice, but really best suited to auto pams due to the thread diameter. They just require some lever modifications to seat properly with the correct distance from the case.

Now I'm DEFINITELY in if someone is willing to purchase some true GEN crowns or crown guards for reasonable money. That would be GREAT. My fave PAMs these days are D series and earlier PAMs based on the JimmyFu case. It's truly a higher quality case with better polish/finish/lugs and screws.

Hey skcheng,

If you are in contact with Jimmy, ask him for the cad files. I am very serious about this as I have gotten quotes and people lined up. I just need the cad files!

I bought one genuine crown from an AD who ordered it specifically for my 111F. It cost me $35 and he apologised for the high cost of Panerai material. I also got a gen CG as well from the same source for less than the cost of a Jimmy Fu CG so there's no way that a crown for any Panerai is $350.

Why don't you go in on a group buy seeing as you can get the gen item?? I'll do all the other work if you can simply get the parts.

that would b great...i bet many members could help with informations about the gen crown...and that price (10-15$) would be great...

do you pland to the the CG as well?

here is the link to W's post : http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...30&hl=crown

Hey, if I could get the cad file for these, I would most certainly do that. The hard part is getting the computer file needed. I am very proficient with Autocad, but I have no real basis for what I am drawing other than scans or patent descriptions. If I could ever get a hold Jimmy and get his cad files that would be awesome. Getting them made is incredibly cheap, the materials are as well. The design is the hard part.

there is a post from Kruzer about this crowns from the e-bay...he bought dozen of them and i think that other members did the same...there are pics of it/them installed on various reps...

and their qualitiy (we can discuss if the are gen or not) are IMHO the best ones that appeard on the aftermarket

That's the post I have been looking for. According to the patent these ebay crowns are not genuine, but they are very good. The mark-up is ridiculous though. I have thought about making some aftermarket ones and I was quoted around $2 a piece and that's with material. So $99 is very steep. I just need to get a cad file to make mine, I assure you it would be around $10-$15 once it's all said and done.

Linky no worky.

If it is the same one that is touted as "genuine" it is a good crown. Much better than Palp's imo. However, it is not actually a gen crown. Just close. It seems someone reverse engineered it.

Well, since I lack Tootall's frankness, I'll now out myself and say yeah, didn't like the strap either, Lonnie. It looked like someone put Fozzy Bear into the wash with Clorox.

Still, the Fiddy IS an hommage to the XaMas watches, to answer kasigi, and that's why vintage WWII ammo straps look so good on it. I'm not a fan, but if money is a consideration, try to check out CharlyJakob on eBay. Cheap ($30-50) ammo straps.

Just a word of caution. his aren't real ammo pouch leather. He is a shoe maker who uses regular leather and beats it up to look old.

Welcome to the world of Panerai. Great choice for you first one.

However, that strap looks like pure garbage. I seriously hope you didn't pay more than $20 for it. It's a $5 strap that someone bleached and distressed. And the buckle is a cheap rep buckle that come on the canal street reps. I don't mean to come across so harsh, but if you paid more than $20 you sadly got taken.

All you would need is to find someone with a laser engraver. They are accurate to .001mm. Then you need a vector file to go off of. You can get that by scanning the dial you have and ORC the image or reverse engineer it. Then it would be trial and error for engraving depth. The hard part is going to be getting lume to the right color and the brass dials themsleves.

Thanks for the response, tootall. I'm still not sure why you choose to continue talking in circles (i.e., "The FTC says it, so therefore the FTC says that, and if the FTC says it, then it must be that the FTC means it ... so how can you say that because the FTC says so").

1. I don't have a definition of hand-made. That's my WHOLE POINT ... that there is not a definitive definition of hand-made. While I don't doubt at all that you are correct in regards to the FTC's rulings, you have to remember that their primary purpose is consumer protection ... to prevent such actions as creating jewelry on an assembly line and then stamping it "Hand Made" to sell at a greater profit. I would guess the FTC has no intention (or even jurisdiction?) of being the "end-all, be-all" definitive answer for all products in all fields as to whether they can be labeled handmade ... my guitar and putter as two perfect examples.

2. Both examples I used demonstrate my beliefs. You continue to avoid them, and instead choose to live in the theoretical ... "this is how the FTC defines it". I ask you ... do you believe the guitar and the putter are NOT handmade? Yes, I believe them to not be handmade Are they WRONG? Yes Does it (to quote you) "bug the crap" out of you that they define their products as handmade? YesShould they be fined by the FTC? This is a questionable answer. Yes they "should", but will I ever, no. Or is it possible that there actually is some leniency when it comes to this subject? No leniency, or maybe there is when I call next week.

Let's bring this home. Below is your VERY FIRST STATEMENT:

This whole discussion has proven that this issue is not as black and white as you wish it was.

I could make a grey area out of anything. Which is exactly what you 3 guys have done. You all still say 8" when proven otherwise. Trying to use this instance and that instance, "IF's". I have not once changed my views, so I don't get the whole back peddling. Also, I not am talking in circles. You 3 keep coming up with different arguments and I have to keep bringing you back to square one. Thus I am not the one running in circles. My point or argument has never changed.

Lastly, I will post my results next week and that will be the end of it. None of you 3 are experts or even amateurs in this field, you are only presenting your ignorant opinions on a watch forum. I am trying to educate and you keep spouting things which you "think" you know something about. So then, I will post my results next week and that will be the end of it.

cranium, thank you for that detailed explanation. However, it only states that Scott Cameron believes it is handmade. The way I understand it and have researched it, you certainly could have a case, if you wanted to. The thing is that the only case that someone has won with the FTC in regards to handmade were the Alaskan Eskimos and Native Americans who were being taken advantage of, because their products were handmade, but the gift shops that sold other people's products were not handmade. The gift shops were claiming handmade and that's when the FTC came up with the definition and explanation. From what I gather, this is the only case where this has been discussed. So interpretation? Maybe. But you would have to go a long way around interpreting handmade for a strap that has been cut out by a leather cutting machine table, by table I mean a machine similar to this: http://www.mfgsup.com/dieless_cutting_syst...ing_equipment/, sewn on a machine, and finished by various bench grinders and polishers.

On Monday or Tuesday of next week, I am going to call the FTC and ask them. They don't have an email or I would have already done that. I'll ask the specific questions: (if you think I should re-word them, then please let me know, thanks)

1. On your definition of handmade, it states that one is to quote " by hand labor and manually-controlled methods", does this include machines that are operated by hand? Example an electric sewing machine?

If the above does include machines, then I will give up my stance, pure and simple. No need for questions 2 and 3.

2. Could you then say, to accurately describe "handmade", one is to use their hands with no aid of an electric tool?

3. Manual tools such as knives, hammers, etc. are ok?

These 3 questions should cover all of our points and determine, what is accurate. If any of you think of something different let me know. I just hope that you all are as willing as I am to accept if your stance is wrong.

I had just posted this in another thread. I hope it helps:

The best way to soften most any strap is to take it and bend the heck out of it. Twist, bend, pull, etc. The fibers need to be loosened up. Conditioners won't work well without the fibers being opened anyways. The leather probably does not have any oils lost, so your best bet is to just bend it a LOT. If after the bending and twisting the leather seems a bit dull in color, then a conditioner will be ok. Use Lexol or one of the liquid conditioners. No oil though. And definately NO NEATSFOOT. Neatsfoot oil can rot thread.

Hope that helps.

P.S. If the leather is sub par quality, then no amount of bending or conditioning will help. So starting with quality leather is best.

Never mind. Your smart@$$ response sums up everything I need to know.

You don't have too many friends, I'm guessing ... angry little man.

HUH?

I meant that sincerely. Would you have preferred me to say "I'm sorry, I don't know what I didn't answer?" . Maybe that conveys the problem I am having a little clearer?

Chat comes across in whatever "tone" you read it in. I am sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic, that was not the "tone" I wanted to convey. I sincerely don't know what you want me to respond to. The only questions you asked were labeled an aside.

tootall, you never responded to my post.

And maybe try not to quote dictionary.com or the FTC ...

I'm sorry, what was in your post that warranted response?

Of course it does not apply. One relates to jewellery, the other does not. The first FTC definition you quoted clearly stated hand labour and manually-controlled methods.

Why does Oszolom need to grow up? The points they make are totally valid. If you want to consider a strap to be 100% hand made, you are left with the position of cutting the leather with your teeth and nails. Pushing the thread through the holes (bitten through, of course) by hand without a needle. Sorry, but if you're going to try and insist that 'hand made is hand made', that's the level you have to be reduced to. The FTC definition, as mentioned above, stated "Hand labor AND manually-controlled methods". Using tools and manually controlled machines, falls under the remit of 'manually-controlled methods'.

To be honest, I'm getting sick of wasting time debating an issue with someone clearly unwilling to accept that their own definitions have proved the point against them, and to be honest, you're starting to look like a troll. People have more important things to discuss than if a strap is being incorrectly labelled as 'hand-made', 'hand-crafted' or 'hand-tooled'...

Like I said, I cannot debate anything with you if you won't go read the FTC section 16 CFR. If you want to go read it then we can discuss further. They both relate to jewelry. GO READ IT!!! They both are in the jewelry section.

What You are doing is continuously not answering none of the questions I am asking. I know that after all that whangydoodles You wrote, You must have pain in the ass answering any question asked by anybody.

So let us know You kosher expert of "handmade" jewellery:

If I am using fuel combustion engine or steam engine or waterweel to cut or polish diamonds i can call final product "handmade"? Ask the FTC as I did. Go read the article. Their definition would say no, but they would also be the law as to definition

If I am using electric engine to cut or polish diamonds i can't call final product "handmade"? Correct

So please, go sit in the corner, stop serving all that demagogic [censored] and try to answer maybe one simple question. It is not so hard to think as You imagine.

Hope that helps. And please go back and read the quote part where I have answered all your questions.

We're not talking about jewellery though, are we, we're talking about watch straps, so that definition does not apply. Besides, the other definition said 'manually-controlled', and such things, electrical or otherwise, are still manually-controlled.

That other definition was from the same section, so does it also not apply?

The reason these are about jewelry is that the same section that includes jewelry also includes leather and watch bands. Section 16. So like I have said before, go read it. It will take you a while like it did me, but I have done it. Also like I said before, even after being proven wrong with a standard you still say your position is correct. If you don't accept the standard, we have nothing more to go on. I was more than willing to let my position, but you seem to still be saying 8", even after proven otherwise.

Oszolom, you need to grow up. Realize they are not talking about raising a cow by only hand feeding it. Or that you kill it with human hands. Your argument is utter nonsense. They are talking about taking the raw ingredients and producing a product from it. So please, go sit in the corner while the grown ups talk.

I went and researched the heck out of this subject over at FTC. I am fully ready to give up my stance if I am incorrect. However, I cam across a great explanation for handmade:

In the U.S. handmade jewelry is strictly defined by the FTC as

being made 100% by hand. This means that no electricity may be

used at all. No flexshafts to cut seats, no motors for

polishing, ect.

So that is the best description I have found. I was using the wrong words in mechanical devices or machines. This shows the best explanation of the law from the FTC. No use of electricity. Hope that helps.

Trick?? There is no trick. I was asking pure and simple. I wasn't trying to "trip" you up in any way. Like I said a simple yes or no would suffice. I really want to know what you think. In these cases would you say it was handmade?

I am not back peddling anything. The statement "by hand labor and manually-controlled methods" are not two different methods. They are one in the same. Go to the article at the FTC before you spout any more ignorant comments. "And" is not a conjunction but rather an inclusion. The article goes on to explain that manually controlled means hand tools. NO mechanical devices.

Just because you used your hands to make something does not mean it is "handmade". As I have stated, that would be ridiculous to say, that just because a human hand was involved it is handmade.

Ok maybe this will finally end it.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

If a strap is stitched by using a sewing machine and edges are finished by using a bench grinder, is that still considered handmade?

If a strap is cut out by a leather cutting machine (table), stitched by using a sewing machine and edges are finished by using a bench grinder, is that still considered handmade?

Sorry, I considered hole punching in with braddling, and as for finishing and QC, that's just standard procedure. It goes without saying that an artisan checks their work, so doesn't really belong on the list...

Really.

Sorry, but that would mean using tools of any variety, as long as they are manually controlled, which was the point I made several times above...

You just don't get it do ya?

Go to the FTC website and look up the discussions on this matter. Manually controlled, means every aspect of said tool. A dremel for instance would be manually controlled only if the head was not spinning. At that point you are not manually controlling the tool. If you just held a dremel with sanding drum and rubbed back and forth with it, that would be manually controlled.

You two are getting ridiculous now. I will end this. I think people understand FACTS over "general acceptance" which the acceptance hasn't been proven but the facts are.

I jsut don't get "why" you have to fight the proven standard of the dictionary and the FTC. I bet if I we did have that book, after we both found out it was 7" instead. You would still claim your 8".