tootall

Pure academic blablabla... exemplification of what is called on netboards "flame".

Tootall, please answer some simple question:

- If someone uses heavy stone to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

Yes

- If someone uses spring clasps to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

Yes

- If someone uses manual operated lever press to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

Yes

- If someone uses hudraulic press to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

Yes

It is easy to answer just with "yes" or "no". That will clear much more that milion words elaborates.

Hope that helps ya. I would like for you to define "secure glueing", but for now I go off the assumption you just mean after glue is applied the pressing and leaving of the glue to set.

I might not have made a strap, but as mentioned, I have worked on other, and similar, projects. I may not be an expert, but I do know the work involved. Dyeing, pattern cutting, braddling, gluing, stitching. Have I missed anything out?

Yes, you forgot finshing, conditioning, holes punched, QC.

btw, just wanted to add this:

HANDMADE - The FTC defines handmade as entire shaping and forming of a product from raw materials and accomplishing the finishing and decoration by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

This includes the definition of the dictionary and also the greater public. So there is still no room for machines, no matter how you look at it.

After reading this, I think we are getting things cconfused.

I am talking about hand made. You seem to be talking about making something that incorporates using your hands. They are two different things. I'll give an example. A car is made using machines and also by using humans to put parts on by hand. Now the parts of the car that are put on by hand are not "hand made". They are simply put together by a human who has to use his/her hands to complete the task. Now you wouldn't say a car was handmade. Would you?

Furthermore, a Rolls Royce has a dash and seat parts that are handmade. They are considered this because people use no mechanical devices in order to make the product. If they used a sewing machine, it is not hand made. So those parts are hand made because there was no mechanical device used.

Your example of a hutch does not make it handmade. It just means you built it yourself. Handmade has it's definition, which holds true. Just because something is made with the aid of a person's hand does not make it "handmade". Another example would be my couch. People use mechanical devices to put it together with their hands. That does not make it handmade however. It just means it was fabricated with the use of hands.

Asking whether or not you have made a strap, points more to you don't know the work invloved so you are not a source to determine whether stitching is 50% of a strap. By volume it is not, as there is more leather showing than stitching. But in the process of making a strap, stitching takes over 50% of the process time and construction. That was in response to what the previous poster said.

The question comes to you. What is the reason you don't accept the standard (the dictionary)? I mean if we were have a book and I said it was 6" long and you said it was 8" long, but then we get a standard (a ruler) and find out it's 7" long, we would both have to give up our opinions as to what the true dimension is. It's the same with handmade. There is no tolerance or other definition, except:

made by hand, rather than by machine

No mechanical devices. So you can argue all you want, but the fact remains, no machines.

I mean if we are to use "your" definition, then every strap is handmade. Every car would be as well. Anything that had a human hand invloved is considered handmade. There is no magic machine, where someone puts a load of ingredients into it and out pops a finished product. Human hands are involved in the steps of everything made.

No, I haven't. I have, however, worked on many other projects which were 'by hand', some requiring more use of tools than others. Look at the examples I gave previously of where 'power tools' were involved, but the overall project was still done 'by hand'. I notice that the two times they've been cited, they have been ignored...

Is a painting not done 'by hand', because an artist uses a brush rather than their fingers?

Is a sculpture not done 'by hand', because the artist uses a variety of tools?

The reason they have been ignored is because to YOU they are considered hand made, but they are NOT by definiton. And thus your opinion is not fact, so therefore your idea of them being handmade is incorrect.

An artists painting is using hand tools. Nothing mechanical there.

A sculpturer who uses hammer and chisel again is using hand tools and no mechanical devices. If a sculpturer was to use power/mechanical tools, this would take them out of the hand made realm.

As I said, I accept that the dictionary definition is as it is, but seriously, in the real world, there are loads of things which people consider to be 'hand made' even when the artisan involved uses labor-saving tools. The tool is not taking anything away from the skill of the artisan, it just improves their productivity.

Edging and stitching are 'window dressing' of a strap. They are the 'icing on the cake'. As I said before, the majority component of the strap, is the material the primary shapes are made from. That's not to say that the other things are not important, of course they are. The point I was making, was that stitching, in terms of physical composition, does not make up 50% of a strap. Aesthetically, sure, I'd say it might well contribute 50% of the appearance, but certainly not 50% of the physical composition.

I don't know where you keep getting this "in the real world" stuff. No one I know of, says a person can use mechanical devices in the process and it can still be labeled as handmade. That is a fabrication of your own opinion. But not "real world" standard.

You have never made a strap. I have made many of them. I can tell you that in a few cases stitching may be more asthetic, but in the majority of cases it makes up a structual part of the strap. Furthermore, only people who want to pervert the simple definition to increase profits, notarity, etc are the ones who claim as long as you work with your hands it is hand made, no matter the tool. My point of 99% of the things I own, could be labeled as hand made if that were the case, is what is being ignored.

'Swiss Made'... Watches where parts are outsourced and fabricated in China and shipped to Switzerland for assembly... Not exactly the best analogy.

Stitching does not make up 50% of a strap by any stretch of the imagination. at least 80% of a strap is the material it's made of, then there's any filling, glues and stitching to hold it all together.

While I agree that there is certainly a dictionary definition of what is 'hand made', there is also, as mentioned, a tollerance for using labor-saving tools to make that 'hand job' ( ) easier. As I illustrated with tattoos, or the hutch I made last year... At the end of the day, it's a matter of semantics and personal interperetation.

Have you ever made a strap?

There's no need to argue.There's no argument at all.

Make a comment, if you know the subject, about the 'swiss made' label. How much, of a watch work and materials is needed , to be labeled , Swiss Made?

That is directly related to our polite exchange of opinions in here.

PS That percentage I am referring to, is a market accepted ratio not my own estimation

That's my point exactly. The definition of Swiss made has the percentage in it's definition. Where as the definition of handmade does not. It is simple. There is no accepted percentage to determine handmade or not, it's simply made by hand or not.

I am not arguing opinion here. Go read this link:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/handmade

By definiton there is zero room for machines. That is fact.

Furthermore, 50% actually was a conservative estimation. The only things that a strap have are cutting, gluing, sewing, and finishing. Of that list, the sewing takes the most time. And represents the overall look of a strap more than all the others combined.

There is no such thing as being rude in a well mannered exchange of opinions.That remark was not needed

I ll try to say it in everyday language.

'" The total contribution of the aid, that the use of machinery adds, is not to the point to say, that the product is not hand made "

It is only a matter of product management economics.

Hope that is more clear now

I still am not getting it, but I'll take a try.

Are you saying that if a person uses a machine in the process it does not disqulaify it as being handmade?

Because that is your opinion, but the fact is that it would be incorrect. Like I said, if that were the case then 99% of the things I own could be considered handmade. But they aren't. Did you look at the last few photo's on his site? He shows plainly that he uses a sewing machine. Now stitching is about 50% of a strap, so by any definition given here that would disqualify it. Mechanical devices are what make a product handmade or not. And he most certainly is using mechanical devices. To say it doesn't matter says that nothing can be classified one way or the other.

Sorry,for not making it clear.By "field" I mean the market.

Don't be surprised by the seemingly high percentage of machine aided, added value.

For example: The dyeing of the leather used, in the fist place ,the polishing of the edges after the cutting and the stitching ,don't add up to it.

That is different than, using presses to cut and slice the leather,glue it with sonics ,clear the edges etc.etc., in a production line

Anyway, the point is, that the guy, as a good artisan,has no second thoughts,sharing his art with all interested

Sorry,

I don't understand any of what you typed except for the last line. Not being rude, I really don't understand what you were trying to say.

I have no second thought about helping others either. I have helped quite a few people learn how to make their own straps.

These days {present},and some time in the past, the term hand made is ,was, used to mark a product of being made manually,more often than not,adding

an exotic, special aura to it, and a higher selling price to boot,but never a better product

The fine distinction between the use of machinery for detailing and time consuming finishing touches,is very difficult to quantify as a measure of labeling a product as hand made or not.

It is accepted, in the field ,that if the added machine work is less than 40 percent in absolute values,the term "hand made" is justified

What field is this that you are reffering to? I mean if that is the case, then 99% of things I have are handmade from socks to jeans to my couch.

And we are not talking about simple touches. He is stitching the strap by machine.

I'm not going to argue dictionary definitions with you, we'll just have to agree to disagree To be honest, as long as a person is in control of the tools (ie it's not a computer operated automatic machine) then I would personally consider that to be good enough to be considered hand-crafted, although I would be happy to agree that there is still a difference between using a hand-operated tool (like a hand file) and using a 'labor-saving' tool like a dremel, as one process is involving 'elbow grease', the other just requires the skill to use the tool properly

I understand your point. We do have to understand as well, that this is a language issue. This guy is German, so the translation comes over different. I would say literally translated, he means hand made. But that's just my opinion.

My stance has always been that if a mechanical device is used in any form or part of the process you cannot claim handmade.

The difference, is there in the words you typed.

"Hand crafted" Vs "Hand Made".

I've worked on projects before where I had to use power tools to do things (dremel etc) and although I wouldn't class the work as "hand made" (as it wasn't filed through elbow-grease and a hand-file) it was still "hand crafted" as it was done by a person, rather than a CNC grinder (or as would compare to this, a computerized sewing machine) I'd suggest that that's the case with these straps

Well that might be true, but... the dictionary defines it differently

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/handcraft

So it is a lie to say it's hand crafted or hand made. It involves a mechanical device to complete it somehow, which takes it out of this realm. The only part he could say is handcrafted would be the cutting.

But this is not unusal. Almost every TC strap is done this same way. It is called handmade but there are many mechanical devices used in the process.

This really bugs the crap out of me. How can some say "handcrafted only", when he shows a variety of machines to finish and stitch his straps??

That is not handmade. Period.

This PS was bullseye hit. The leather is minus 9th division in the quality department. So no bending or conditioning.

The only thing that stays is the 26 mm pre V . buckle, which is perfect in all respects.

Tomorrow I will visit the local leather shops, I am living half a mile from down town Athens,and everything is very close to me.The amount of leather products and all the required paraphernalia is really beyond belief.

With all those good infos that I have in here, it would be relatively easy to make some straps that will make the Seal a perfect "toy",and a enjoyable watch.

Thanks to all of you

Glad I could help.

If you need any tips or advice on making your own, PM me. I can go over the tools you will need and ones you don't. I spent alomst $100 on stuff I have never used. I can also show you some tips that help.

Thanks V.,and highflyingclive for the answer and pics.

Today a friend gave me (sold it) a new unused black matte leather strap of the 26 mm persuasion. with thin,white stitching. Blimey, the clasp is humongous,nothing like I've ever had.

But It goes like a song with the Black seal

It's a beauty.

The Radiomir, looks now like a fairy with high heeled boots.

Sorry no pics yet

The only catch is that it's still new, thick and hard to manage.Sure it will give in ,but do you know any means, to speed up the process of softening the leather?

Some cream perhaps?

Thanks

Don't use any leather conditioner at all. Going by your description, conditioners wouldn't help the strap very much to become more flexible. The best way to soften most any strap is to take it and bend the heck out of it. Twist, bend, pull, etc. The fibers need to be loosened up. Conditioners won't work well without the fibers being opened anyways. The leather probably does not have any oils lost, so your best bet is to just bend it a LOT. If after the bending and twisting the leather seems a bit dull in color, then a conditioner will be ok. Use Lexol or one of the liquid conditioners. No oil though. And definately NO NEATSFOOT. Neatsfoot oil can rot thread.

Hope that helps.

P.S. If the leather is sub par quality, then no amount of bending or conditioning will help. So starting with quality leather is best. Some pictures would help immensely.

I chose other. My other would have to be the original brass buckles that had been hot treated with Zinc. These are found on original straps of the compasses and other watches of the Rolex/Panerai era.

If you have ever had a Gregoire buckle would know it's far too large and very uncomfortable. He gets them from a guy on TZ. The guy is not really a Panerai fan, he makes these for other watches, they just happen to be 24mm. Also the SC buckles are nice, but they can strip (due to the screws) and again are too bulky to be comfortable.

I am not saying that the original brass buckles are comfortable, I just think they are "cooler" than these two. The explaination of disadvantages was an aside.

Oh no Vicky

That is awful that happened. There are some remedies that I could think of. They would be a harsh, but it would allow you start all over.

Basically what you want to do is to heat the leather to aid in the migration of the oils. Once beeswax is in a leather, it is hard to come out, as it wants to stay all cozy with the fibers. There are a number of ways to heat a strap:

1. One good idea would be to put it in a vacu bag and vacuum seal it and then drop it in boiling water for a few minutes. Then take out of the package and then wipe off the oils. This should work to lighten it, as it may also take away some of the dye of the original leather.

2. Another idea would be to heat it by placing it in a heating pad. Make sure to wrap the leather with a paper towel and it should soak up the oils. Just leave it in the heating pad overnight wrapped in paper towels. Then wipe down with a rag.

3. Lastly, it is still HOT in FL. So taking it outside and placing on a glass patio table, or even on the roof or metal surface, would aid in the releasing of the oils. The air outside helps in evaporation as well. Just wipe down the leather after it gets hot, with a rag.

Number 1 is the harshest method, but will give you the quickest and lightest results. Numbers 2 and 3, are much less harsh, but take some time.

After you get the leather to a state where you like it, then use tan kote or saddle kote. Both of these are clear coats that don't do much for conditioning, but make the leather shiny and new looking.

Hey Vicky,

If you could post a pic of your strap and describe what outcome you want to acheive I will try my best to advise. Most of the products you mentioned are for protecting leathers or restoring lost oils. Not for shining or bringing back to full luster.

Metta leather is naturally dark. If you were to replace the oils that have been lost from being at the bottom of the sea, then it most likely will turn very dark. What I assume you want is to keep the lighter maroon color and have it shine? You could use bag kote or tan kote. Both of these work to make leather shine like satin while still allowing it to breath.

But now it seems as if you have a bigger problem of getting that crap conditioner out so you can get back to the lighter color. Unfortunately, there is not a "good" speed method for doing this. Time and time alone is the only thing which will help to dry up the oils again. You could try to leave it by a fan to help speed up the process, but it is still going to take a long while.

Thanks guys for the compliments. I was trying to make it look more like a muscle.

Wow, tootall, beautiful and... different, love it I have seen stuff like that on knife-holsters, there are some very gifted knife-makers here in Denmark. Trying to figure out how you did it.

Regards, Volker

ps.: the edge-coat a bit massive for my taste, I prefer burnishing the edges by hand....

It was easy, LOL. j/k. I did it with multiple layers of goatskin. I used goatskin, because it stretches the best. If you can hand burnish goatskin be my guest. Goatskin imo is impossible to hand burnish, especially soft temper goatskin. It stretches too much and with the amount layers I used, it would be a problem. Just PM me if you want to discuss it more, I made a word doc explanation on "how" I did it.

Here is a good example of how I hand burnish other pieces (make it slick as glass)

Hello everyone.

I had made this strap a few months ago for a good friend. I put this on another forum and wanted to show it off here as well. I am extremely proud of this piece, and since I don't post much over here I thought it would be a great way to start doing just that.

Anyways here are the thousand other words I could say:

Let me know what you all think

What if I took one of my long fingernails and scratched ever so lightly, the stain out? Gulping hard, because I hate seeing that stain there...IT WORKED!

Stain gone, buffed lightly with a cloth which TWP sent me.

What other stain solutions have you found?

NOTE: I hate the texture of waterproof straps, so Lexol is out for me, but I heard that's good in general.

Hey vbarrett,

The reason this most likely worked is because when you scratched the leather you broke apart (ever so slightly) the fibers of the leather. This allowed the porous surface of the leather to open up and dry out. You could the same thing by bending it in the place where the strap is wet and rubbing gently with a dry cloth.

I don't understand your Lexol problem. Lexol is a wonderful leather conditioner. There are many different types of Lexol as that is just a brand name. So which product don't you like and why?

I forgot to add that Meltonian Neutral is a leather protectant/dressing. It is not made to get stains off of leather. The only product I would trust to remove dirt stains is Lexol ph balanced leather cleaner. And I say dirt stains, because most liquid stains can come out with drying and gentle rubbing.

By the photos, it seemed to me that it had the cannon pix, dagger, and swan neck done. No clue about palp crown, but didn't look too badly.

If I weren't up in DSN's biness these days, I'd knuckle down and buy one from Angus too. His presentation is first-rate, and after Swemoose's disaster, I know he's reliable.

I don't see any dagger. Just a standard Swiss needle with swan neck. And I am not so sure about the cannon pin fix. From that angle it could go either way.

I do like the box and all the eatra goodies.

vbarrett, I hope you get your "fixed" watch back soon. I too would be a little disappointed if I payed a premium for a watch that is supposed to have QC and it showed up with obvious QC issues.

Btw, that strap looks good