shkolnik Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Greetings to everything, it is interesting to me in what a difference between Wrapped and Plated a gold covering? Whether it is much appreciable for the sake of appearances? And whether darkens in due course these coverings? Excuse for my English Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Someone else can chime in but there is no such thing as wrapped or rather wrapped is plating. Decent plating starts at 5mm and can go as high as 10mm. Older watches with even thicker plating are referred to as Gold filled. Gold filled used to go as high as 20mm and you could be assured of the plating lasting for 10-20 years or longer. What is good about plating is that the technology has improved from standard electroplating on SS which doesn't wear particularly well to gold being put on PVD or DLC. With the latter you tend to get a truer to real gold color and the gold should not wear away. The trade-off is that if you do scratch it deep enough to get below the gold your only option is to refinish the whole watch or in the case of reps - throw it away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shkolnik Posted July 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 ....."wrapped" as an example http://www.jpc8118.com/rlst01001-wrapped-b...836-p-5216.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Like Kruzer says, plating and wrapped are about the same as far as we can tell. Obviously, Josh charges more for 14k wrapping, $80 less for 18k plated. We still don't know the difference- it's more than likely a chinese marketing phrase used to charge more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 My best guess on wrapping is that it is simply a thicker plating (perhaps 3mm vs 5mm or 5mm vs 10 mm). It is not necessarily a criticism of the dealers if it is what I suspect. It may be their way of explaining a thicker (i.e. more durable) coating. I have always wondered at what thickness you can actually form a sheet of gold (think of it as paper) and then wrap around an object. Even 10mm is pretty thin. I know that even the best gold filled in the old days topped out at 18-20mm. And of course the other question is what else is mixed into that gold. White gold plating is not actually gold. It is predominantly rhodium. I should know more but I had a number of bad experiences with plating (on gens as well) and so I have tended to stay away from them. I do have one piece which is gold on PVD and it has held up well so far. By the way somewhere around here there is a long thread on wrapping. Most importantly folks are no longer trying to get huge premiums for gold plating versus SS so it becomes more a matter of choice than economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shkolnik Posted July 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 I very much would like TT WATCH. Whether council it as to look well as gen will be necessary to me, or to leave this idea.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narikaa Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 3mm, 5mm, 10mm & 20mm PLATING! Are you for real? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBison Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 i think he means microns not mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) Greetings to everything, it is interesting to me in what a difference between Wrapped and Plated a gold covering? Whether it is much appreciable for the sake of appearances? And whether darkens in due course these coverings? Excuse for my English In the United States, at least, there are legal definitions of "Gold plating" and the plating has to meet the legal definition before it can be called "gold plated" despite the fact that the coating process is "gold plating". So manufacturers of cheap items will apply a "flash" of gold (the minimum amount that will give a uniform gold color) and they use inventive phrases for the coating. I've often heard, "layered in genuine 18K gold", and "a genuine 18K gold finish". When you hear these inventive phrases then you know it does not meet the legal minimum for gold plating. If my memory serves me right then gold plating has a minimum plating thickness of .0003" (three tenths of a thousandth). "Gold filled" means that 1/20th of the total weight of the item is gold. You won't find that on a watch, but you will find in better costume jewelery. 30 years ago I got a fake Rolex and the gold plating wore off in a matter of months. That was certainly "flash gold". Gold is a very soft metal and I don't know what thickness would be required to give good service on a watch (and there is no reasonable way the consumer can check the thickness either). Personally the only gold watch I own is a genuine. The rest are stainless, but I'm thinking of getting a titanium one soon. Just a guess, but "wrapped" in gold sounds very much like advertising wording for flash gold. Edited July 11, 2009 by Packard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 3mm, 5mm, 10mm & 20mm PLATING! Are you for real? . R- Yeah, I meant microns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 At some point I investigated plating for a project and the shop I was talking to had recommendations for various levels of plating based on how long I wanted the plating to last. It is a distant memory but he started at something like 3 microns and went up to something like 15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 This article is pretty informative on gold plating. http://www.artisanplating.com/faqs/goldplatefaqs.html Our company buys a lot of plating (mostly nickel and zinc, but also some brass and gold). The best gold plating (and chrome plating) has a flash of copper at the base. This acts as a primer and gives excellent adhesion to the ensuing layers of plating. Then a layer of nickel is put on. The gold plating will deposit almost entirely uniformly, so if there are any imperfections in the substrate it will telegraph through the gold and look lousy. The nickel plating will "self-level"; that is it will deposit more heavily in the crevices than on the higher surfaces. If enough nickel is put on the surface will be perfectly smooth. And finally the gold will be applied. But it is the nickel under the gold that makes the finish look rich. If the base metal is brass then the brass can be polished and the plater can go from copper directly to the gold. In the USA the cost of gold plating breaks down approximately like this: 50% labor (to put the parts on the plating rack and remove it when done). 30% EPA compliance 20% materials. Typically when we buy small parts the price for the plating is $.15 to $.40 each (under 8" long). Our plating contractor told me once that they put a flash of gold on a small handle and had about $0.005 worth of gold on the parts. The nickel underneath was more costly than the gold top coat. The Chinese do not have EPA to worry about, and their labor costs are much lower so each component that gets plated is probably in the $.10 to $.20 range. The actual amount of gold that gets put down probably does not amount to more than $.05 or $.10 per part. Going up in thickness will not add substantially to the cost of a watch. (According to the article I was wrong about gold filled not being used on watches. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuuubeh Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 3mm, 5mm, 10mm & 20mm PLATING! Are you for real? Switch the first "m" for a "u" and we are good Wrapped might refer to gold-filled/rolled gold, but with a thinner layer of gold.. The idea is that a layer of gold is bonded to the base material (brass, copper, silver, you get the idea) and then further processed to the final piece. Lots of pens for example use rolled gold, as it should be quite easy to make a cylindrical object like that . That being said, I dont see how anyone can weld a layer of gold ontop of a thing as complex as a watch case or similar.. . So it doesnt seem that realistic after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 I agree with Kruz's postings. Wrapped gold is a marketing phrase intended to conjure up images of thick gold leaf treatment. True gold fill, which is the closest thing to the description of wrapped gold, is a thin layer of 10k gold bonded to a brass substrate plated with 14 or 18 K gold. Yes, those old Wadsworth pocket watch gold fill cases were 20 year guaranteed and that' s for everyday use in a wool lined pocket. If anyone believes this is what our Asian friends are doing to bracelet links...I've got a bridge to sell you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narikaa Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Yes 'wrapped' (whatever that actually means) when used to refer to any watch part other than say the flat bracelet mid links has to be, como se dice, a gilt edged fargin lie. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 I agree with Kruz's postings. Wrapped gold is a marketing phrase intended to conjure up images of thick gold leaf treatment. True gold fill, which is the closest thing to the description of wrapped gold, is a thin layer of 10k gold bonded to a brass substrate plated with 14 or 18 K gold. Yes, those old Wadsworth pocket watch gold fill cases were 20 year guaranteed and that' s for everyday use in a wool lined pocket. If anyone believes this is what our Asian friends are doing to bracelet links...I've got a bridge to sell you! In the USA "Gold Filled" means that the layer of gold equals in weight to 20% of the total weight of the part. A fairly light part might have a fairly thin coating. A heavy part (like a watch case) would have a proportionately heavier coating. The process for "flash gold", "gold plating" and "gold filled" are all done by electo-deposition in an electrolytical solution (which we all call "plating"). The difference is only in the thickness (or weight) of the finish. Just for background it works like this: The part to be plated is placed in a tank with a solution that has salts in it that allows the water to carry electric current. The part itself is hooked up to a cable with a negative charge. The positively charged annode is attached to an ingot of gold. When the current moves from the positively charged ingot to the negatively charged component it carries minute quantities of gold along with it and it deposits onto the component. The longer the part is in the tank the more gold is applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Very interesting topic! And great information here as well! Quite a lot of science behind gold plating... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 In the USA "Gold Filled" means that the layer of gold equals in weight to 20% of the total weight of the part. A fairly light part might have a fairly thin coating. A heavy part (like a watch case) would have a proportionately heavier coating. The process for "flash gold", "gold plating" and "gold filled" are all done by electo-deposition in an electrolytical solution (which we all call "plating"). The difference is only in the thickness (or weight) of the finish. Just for background it works like this: The part to be plated is placed in a tank with a solution that has salts in it that allows the water to carry electric current. The part itself is hooked up to a cable with a negative charge. The positively charged annode is attached to an ingot of gold. When the current moves from the positively charged ingot to the negatively charged component it carries minute quantities of gold along with it and it deposits onto the component. The longer the part is in the tank the more gold is applied. @Packard, I don't for a moment dispute your postings. However my understanding of "plated" vs "wrapped" is that plated is gold applied electrolytically, where "wrapped" is indeed thin leaf, applied with (intense) heat. I have worked with gold/ other metal/ electroplating, and have used both pen plating, and dip plating techniques. (which offers far superior results). However I have never been able to get my head around the process of truly identifying the substrate. As different techniques are required ...both in cleaning (which is the basis for good plating), and indeed in application, I have found that the long term plating companies, who have built up years of experience, can always seem to finally achieve results way beyond my amateur efforts. I had purchased a pen plating kit (Caswell) and "played" with it for a year or two. I then spent time with an owner of a company who, on a daily basis, plated many items. He was always able to identify and plate far more efficiently than I could ever hope. Finally when I realised that his charges were not a lot more than my cost, I gave in, and now send cleaned parts or cases directly to him, whenever I am asked for plating services. He does offer "wrapped" which offers a micron thickness, and the cost is around 50% above dip plated items. FWIW, the costs I am quoted, or would need to charge to plate a watch, effectively rule out cosmetic repairs, unless we are dealing with a gen, which is valued above (at least) $1k! Some observations, from my small knowledge base. Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Fleischer Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 i am not a metalurgist but i can say that the wrapped watches Josh or other dealers sell is worth the difference. the 18kt. plated wears off faster. also the main difference is the sides of the midlinks are also covered on the 'wrapped' i have some TT TWBest rollies for about 3 years w/o any signs of wear on the gold. i think the mid links may actually be 'gold filled' or solid 10kt. gold.- this has been debated here many times. i'm not sure but they look good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 @Packard, I don't for a moment dispute your postings. However my understanding of "plated" vs "wrapped" is that plated is gold applied electrolytically, where "wrapped" is indeed thin leaf, applied with (intense) heat. I have worked with gold/ other metal/ electroplating, and have used both pen plating, and dip plating techniques. (which offers far superior results). However I have never been able to get my head around the process of truly identifying the substrate. As different techniques are required ...both in cleaning (which is the basis for good plating), and indeed in application, I have found that the long term plating companies, who have built up years of experience, can always seem to finally achieve results way beyond my amateur efforts. I had purchased a pen plating kit (Caswell) and "played" with it for a year or two. I then spent time with an owner of a company who, on a daily basis, plated many items. He was always able to identify and plate far more efficiently than I could ever hope. Finally when I realised that his charges were not a lot more than my cost, I gave in, and now send cleaned parts or cases directly to him, whenever I am asked for plating services. He does offer "wrapped" which offers a micron thickness, and the cost is around 50% above dip plated items. FWIW, the costs I am quoted, or would need to charge to plate a watch, effectively rule out cosmetic repairs, unless we are dealing with a gen, which is valued above (at least) $1k! Some observations, from my small knowledge base. Offshore My general approach to fact finding has me always (when possible) going to the "single best source" for the information. In that case, I would e-mail to the vendor and ask for an exact specification for the "wrapped" finish. If you know the name of the manufacturing company that produced the item, then I would e-mail directly to them with the question (perhaps in Mandarin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narikaa Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 If you know the name of the manufacturing company that produced the item, then I would e-mail directly to them with the question (perhaps in Mandarin). You would then of course receive lies in Mandarin cool . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 You would then of course receive lies in Mandarin cool . In an industry that has as its very core a business model that is based on violating the law, I would probably agree with that assessement. Even if the vendor chooses to behave honorably with the customers, he is at the mercy the manufacturers whose business model has them violating international laws. Some areas that can be contentious: 1. Gold plating (as discussed) 2. Sapphire crystals (glass?) 3. 316L stainless steel (type 304 is much cheaper) 4. waterproofness These are four items that the consumer would be hard pressed to verify (and the harder it is to verify, the more likely that they are to cheat). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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