digital cameras -- most of the good ones out of stock

[deltatahoe]

had been considering a new digital camera for a while now, but that debate is now over after i lost my digital camera this weekend. long story

the three cameras i'm currently considering are the canon g10, the panasonic lx3 and the leica d-lux 4. both the panasonic and the leica (the two i'm currently leaning towards) seem to be sold out everywhere, whereas the canon is generally available.

any ideas on where to find one of these in stock (at a decent price)? also, would be interested to hear thoughts between the three. obviously the leica is a bit more expensive than the lx3 (which from what i've gathered is essentially the same camera), although from what i've heard panasonic's service department in the event you need them is slow as molasses, and their warranty is one year vs leica's three year. i'm certainly not a leica fanboy but given the price difference really isn't too wide (combined with the difference in warranty), i am considering splurging for the leica...

i was originally considering the g10 pretty strongly (after hearing quite a few good reviews), but i think i like the size and for factor of the lx3/d-lux 4 better...

anyways, thanks in advance for your help

deltatahoe

[Pugwash]

I'm a big fan of the LX3.

The silver one ls less popular and $100 less.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CCNDK4/

[vlydog]

LX3 is back ordered at B&H in NYC.

In stock on Amazon but for 100 dollars more.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=leica+d-lux+4&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=2142147502331411543&ei=ZTN3SsqMBNSMtgeb68yWCQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4#ps-sellers

http://www.seriouscompacts.com/2009/04/ten-recommended-compacts-number-1.html

[Pugwash]

It's a popular camera.

[docblackrock]

had been considering a new digital camera for a while now, but that debate is now over after i lost my digital camera this weekend. long story

the three cameras i'm currently considering are the canon g10, the panasonic lx3 and the leica d-lux 4. both the panasonic and the leica (the two i'm currently leaning towards) seem to be sold out everywhere, whereas the canon is generally available.

any ideas on where to find one of these in stock (at a decent price)? also, would be interested to hear thoughts between the three. obviously the leica is a bit more expensive than the lx3 (which from what i've gathered is essentially the same camera), although from what i've heard panasonic's service department in the event you need them is slow as molasses, and their warranty is one year vs leica's three year. i'm certainly not a leica fanboy but given the price difference really isn't too wide (combined with the difference in warranty), i am considering splurging for the leica...

i was originally considering the g10 pretty strongly (after hearing quite a few good reviews), but i think i like the size and for factor of the lx3/d-lux 4 better...

anyways, thanks in advance for your help

deltatahoe

The Leica D-LUX 4 sold out everywhere? Really? Even the limited edition (gorgeous but obscenely expensive) titanium version? Plenty of them in stock over here.

Why not see about picking up the previous model - the D-LUX 3 - on the cheap? I have one and it's a fantastic camera, definitely a pro-consumer choice. The D-LUX 4 is a lot more money for very little extra - mainly a hotshoe for adding a comically expensive optical VF, ad other trinkets. Yes, you are paying for the red dot over its Panasonic twin, but there is still a little processing magic that the Leica keeps in its favour.

In fact I got mine (silver) not that far from your neck of the woods albeit a good while back, Camera West in Monterey

[deltatahoe]

thanks pugwash; i figured you would vote for the lx3 (having seen your posts about it). i'm not sure about buying the camera from ace photo digital though (the reseller on amazon that allegedly has it in stock) -- i did a little research and it doesn't look like a very big operation; they generally got mixed reviews....i suspect the camera is actually out of stock.

but the real debate -- the silver lx3 vs. the leica given the price differential. as i mentioned before they are essentially the same camera; it's just a matter of whether or not it is worth it to me to spend the extra $100 for the better looking camera (imho) with a better warranty and customer service (not to mention brand value)...

would still love some ideas on where i can actually find one in stock though

deltatahoe

[deltatahoe]

The Leica D-LUX 4 sold out everywhere? Really? Even the limited edition (gorgeous but obscenely expensive) titanium version? Plenty of them in stock over here.

Why not see about picking up the previous model - the D-LUX 3 - on the cheap? I have one and it's a fantastic camera, definitely a pro-consumer choice. The D-LUX is a lot more money for very little extra - mainly a hotshoe for adding a comically expensive optical VF, ad other trinkets. Yes, you are paying for the red dot over its Panasonic twin, but there is still a little processing magic that the Leica keeps in its favour.

In fact I got mine not that far from your neck of the woods albeit a good while back, Camera West in Monterey

yup, sold out at pretty much all of the major online sellers here (as well as local camera shops).

interesting idea on the d-lux 3...i actually like the fact that it doesn't have the hotshoe (i won't be getting that expensive/ugly viewfinder). any ideas on where to get one (aside from ebay & craigslist)?

deltatahoe

[Pugwash]

Why not see about picking up the previous model - the D-LUX 3 - on the cheap? I have one and it's a fantastic camera, definitely a pro-consumer choice. The D-LUX 4 is a lot more money for very little extra - mainly a hotshoe for adding a comically expensive optical VF, ad other trinkets. Yes, you are paying for the red dot over its Panasonic twin, but there is still a little processing magic that the Leica keeps in its favour.

If you're doing your own raw conversions, isn't that magic removed from the equation?

The only other differences, as far as I can tell is that you get CaptureOne with the Leica and C1 can't read LX3 files. Oh, and the menus are different. Ah, and it has that Red Dot tax.

[vlydog]

B,

there are at least (6) LECIA D-LUX 3's on the bay right now.

[HauteHippie]

It was backordered and took two weeks to ship, but I picked up a Silver LX3 recently from Dell at about $420 USD... Just for fun and when the DSLR is too bulky.

It won't be a DSLR replacement, but in all honesty, it's a camera I could live with exclusively if I had to. And that's saying a lot as I've never before used a portable digicam that I liked.

[deltatahoe]

yikes -- i'm really struggling now. the silver lx3 for $429 at dell is pretty tempting (even with a two week delay). thanks for the heads up chief

one thing worth noting -- i won't be doing my own raw conversions (or at least not any time soon)...

deltatahoe

[docblackrock]

B, go on get the Leica version, you know you want to

Also factor in resale value which more than offsets the 'red dot tax' in the long run.

[HauteHippie]

yikes -- i'm really struggling now. the silver lx3 for $429 at dell is pretty tempting (even with a two week delay). thanks for the heads up chief

one thing worth noting -- i won't be doing my own raw conversions (or at least not any time soon)...

deltatahoe

I used to think shooting RAW was worthwhile. I haven't done so in a long time. The extra hassle isn't worth the invisible incremental improvement.

[fotoman]

I'm a huge fan of canon, i love their regular small cameras and i love my DLSR - the only thing i don't like is that i didn't wait for the DSLR-s with HD video to come out.

Frankly, EOS Rebel T1i EF-S, a 10-18 or 10-22 lens - That would rock my world

if anything i have said here is relevant, try to get a camera that you can put a wide angle lens on - and it has to be one by the same Manufacturer made for that camera, otherwise it sucks

wide angle photos make average photos look awesome.

[Pugwash]

I used to think shooting RAW was worthwhile. I haven't done so in a long time. The extra hassle isn't worth the invisible incremental improvement.

For HDRs, there's no point in RAW - multiple JPEGs win every time. For the other stuff, I now shoot raw (I didn't used to) so I don't need to worry about white balance. Also, I love Adobe's raw processor.

But yes, I can see a day where I just shoot JPEGs again. I'm not that bothered about RAW that I'd rush to replace my camera if the raw setting broke..

[Cats]

I'm still a big NOOB when it comes to shooting pictures.

I always used the Ixus of my wife and recently i bought myself a Canon 50D . The 105 mm 2.8 EX DG lens of Sigma is on it's way.

So i can start shooting real macro's now. A lighttent and da light bulb are already in place so wait and see if i can produce nice pictures.

Carpe Diem

Cats

[freddy333]

A comment for Delta (regarding his quandary over which camera to buy) & a general question (about which DSLR to buy for me) -

Delta - Recently, I have been considering 2 of the 3 cameras you are (G10 vs LX3 vs Canon SX10 IS). The bottom line is that I got the SX10 & G10 & did not see that much difference, image quality wise (my primary concern). However, the 20x zoom & Super Macro feature on the SX10 made it the clear winner (between those 2 cameras) for me, especially because that nearly endless zoom (coupled with a wide open aperture) allows me to do SLR-like narrow dof (depth of field) shots with good bokeh (pleasant looking background focus), which the G10's 5x zoom cannot quite achieve.

However, the SX10 (& G10) has 2 serious downsides - noise (essentially spurious speckling) & chromatic aberrations (rainbows/color fringing along edges where light areas meet dark areas (think white lume meets black dial), which, for me, pretty much counter its zoom/Super Macro benefits. And these problems occur at all ISO/aperture settings.

The LX3's noise & chromatic aberrations are much less noticeable below 400ISO, which is where the majority of my shooting occurs, so it is not a problem. Also, & equally important, a crosshatch (series of intersecting vertical & horizontal lines used to test focus & image alignment (especially in the corners)) shot with the LX3 appeared more uniform & square, while both Canons exhibited noticeable bending (barrel distortion) as you move away from the center of the image.

However, the LX3 has its limitations - a relatively short (2.5x) optical zoom & a separate lens cap, which probably seems like a silly thing to complain about, but, for me, to be truly useful as a point-&-shoot, you have to be able to fit the camera (comfortably) into a cargo pants pocket, switch the camera on, take the picture, switch the camera off & return it to your pocket with 1 hand (that is, without having to fiddle with a separate lens cover). Unfortunately, of the 3 cameras, only the G10 has an automatic lens cover that opens (when the camera is switched on) & closes (when the camera is switched off) automatically. That said, the LX3's image quality was so good that it trumped the inconvenience of having to deal with a manual lens cover (which is saying alot when you like to shoot from a moving motorcycle).

But, in the end, I went with the LX3 (also from Dell) because I decided to supplement my point-&-shoot with either the SX10 (for close macros or long-distance zooming) or a DSLR. Which brings me to my own question.........

My question -

I still have the SX10, because of its phenomenal 20x zoom & Super Macro. But, even though the SX10's resolution is significantly better than my old 4MP A80, its noise & chromatic aberrations make some macros look like a significant step below the A80 (unless you shoot in black & white (which eliminates all of the color fringing), in which case, the SX10 is spectacular)). So I am considering returning the SX10 & replacing it with 1 of these 2 DSLRs -

Canon EOS 400D / Digital Rebel XTi

Nikon D60

Anyone with direct/personal experience with BOTH of these models have an opinion as to which makes a better picture (especially in macro)?

[HauteHippie]

My question -

I still have the SX10, because of its phenomenal 20x zoom & Super Macro. But, even though the SX10's resolution is significantly better than my old 4MP A80, its noise & chromatic aberrations make some macros look like a significant step below the A80 (unless you shoot in black & white (which eliminates all of the color fringing), in which case, the SX10 is spectacular)). So I am considering returning the SX10 & replacing it with 1 of these 2 DSLRs -

Canon EOS 400D / Digital Rebel XTi

Nikon D60

Anyone with direct/personal experience with BOTH of these models have an opinion as to which makes a better picture (especially in macro)?

You're asking for a religious war with that question.

I've used both. I really dislike the XTi body (I personally own the XT still) because it is very small and awkward in the hand. That aside, I'll take the Canon any day of the week even if I would absolutely prefer a bigger more comfortable body. Because you're not really buying a body. Both the D60 and XTi are prosumer bodies that have their faults. Neither are full frame. Neither have particularly good low light performance. Etc. So the most important thing to consider is that you're buying lenses. Bodies will come and go but you'll have the lenses for a long, long time. For macro shooting you're not going to find a better deal than the Canon 100mm/2.8 macro lens. I would consider this to be equivalent in sharpness and contrast to any of the Canon prime "L" lenses (their flagship line), and yet for the price of a non-L lens. Truly one of the gems in the Canon line. There's a 50mm/1.4 non-L Canon lens popular for portraiture that is also almost as good. I love the 100/2.8 for macros though, and also think there is no better lens for taking close ups of children's faces, etc. Then, of course, if you get into things like wildlife or sports photography Canon trumps Nikon by at least 10:1. At any sporting event, for example, glance at the pro photog area and count the number of white lenses (Canon) vs. the number of black lenses (could be Canon or Nikon)... It's usually as least 10:1 white. That's as good an endorsement as any. And lastly, if you go back and look at the R&D pace of the two over the past say 5 years, Canon is consistently ahead in terms of bringing to market the incremental improvements.

PS Chromatic aberration in macro shots should be very infrequent if you're in control of the lighting.

[HauteHippie]

remove accidental double post

[freddy333]

Thanks, Chief. That is exactly the kind of user impression I was looking for.

I found a factory refurbed XTi (body only) for $370 (year warranty). Does this seem reasonable?

[HauteHippie]

Thanks, Chief. That is exactly the kind of user impression I was looking for.

I found a factory refurbed XTi (body only) for $370 (year warranty). Does this seem reasonable?

Sounds reasonable. Lightly used XTi bodies with presumably little to no remaining warranty are selling for about that also.

[Pugwash]

Anyone with direct/personal experience with BOTH of these models have an opinion as to which makes a better picture (especially in macro)?

I doubt you'll find anyone that's used both enough to call it. Those who are truly platform-ambivalent are playing with much more expensive kit than two prosumer SLRs. Me, I chose the Canon because I preferred the interface and it had less noise at higher ISO according to reviews. Once you buy into a side, you pretty much stay there because you get locked into your lenses.

I shoot with the EOS400D. I use it for Macro using the stock lens and a reverser ring. I'm very happy with it.

[freddy333]

I shoot with the EOS400D. I use it for Macro using the stock lens and a reverser ring. I'm very happy with it.

Thanks, Pug.

[deltatahoe]

A comment for Delta (regarding his quandary over which camera to buy)

thanks for your insightful comments freddy; i really appreciate it. while i was doing research on all the cameras i came across this thread on the leica forum about a guy who converted his d-lux 4 to have an automatically opening lense cover. i thought it was pretty interesting (and given your hatred of spare lense caps, i figured you might have some interest in that thread).

as a quick aside/update to the thread, i managed to find a new leica d-lux 4 in stock at B&H photo, and given they have a good return policy (15 days with no restocking fee), i decided to pick up both the d-lux 4 and a used d-lux 3 off ebay with the idea that i would take a bunch of comparative pictures with both cameras and see whether or not the price premium is justified. i'll post back here with my conclusions

deltatahoe

ps - freddy, your comment about the extreme zoom on the SX10 and its ability to generate a shallow depth of field is really interesting -- do you have any photos you can post as examples?

[freddy333]

thanks for your insightful comments freddy; i really appreciate it. while i was doing research on all the cameras i came across this thread on the leica forum about a guy who converted his d-lux 4 to have an automatically opening lense cover. i thought it was pretty interesting (and given your hatred of spare lense caps, i figured you might have some interest in that thread).

Yes, I came across that (& another similar mod) early on in my research & I might, at some point, give it a try.

ps - freddy, your comment about the extreme zoom on the SX10 and its ability to generate a shallow depth of field is really interesting -- do you have any photos you can post as examples?

This pic was shot in a fairly dark room using the built-in flash from a distance of about 10' in Auto mode. The gray sack in the background is about 1' behind the watch. There is no way you could get such a shallow dof with a standard point-&-shoot

As you can see above, there is a good deal of noise throughout the picture. This is 1 of the SX10 IS's (& G10's) Achilles heels (the other being chromatic aberrations (color fringing)). The version I originally posted (below) was run through NoiseNinja to tone down as much of the noise as I could without sacrificing too much detail

N.B. both shots were made without any Photoshop filtering/tricks & without my tripod. That is, the camera was hand-held - like most of the better modern cameras, the SX10 IS has a very effective image stabilizer).