First American Made Caliber in over 35 years - RGM Caliber 801

[gran]

First American Made Caliber in over 35 years - RGM Caliber 801

www.rgmwatches.com/caliber_801_001Ca.jpg

Can this really be considered a new caliber or is just an old rewamped pocket watch calibre?..maybe The Zigmeister knows?..anyhow RGM watches are truly classic in their look and sorta affortable

[Toadtorrent]

It does indeed look very similar to a standard pocket watch or 6497-2 movement. The bridgework looks like a PAM 210 with the 2 gear positions flipped. The jewel positions are even simliar.

[FxrAndy]

I would say a reworked 6497, it is fucking nice though!

[RWG Technical]

It does look very nice, and uncannily like a 6498 in more ways than one...in fact I would venture to say it started life as an ETA, too many things that are exactly the same as on an ETA movement. So they simply re-worked a 50 year old movement and tried to make it look sort of retro with some new finishes thrown in.

Somethings stand out that don't make a lot of sense:

What's the purpose of the handhold looking piece on the balance cock? Normally this would have a screw in it to secure it in place after you adjust the beat, they left the hole blank?

If your going to go to the trouble in making a balance wheel the old fashion way, with all sorts of screws, why not do it right and make the balance free sprung with the timing adjusted by the screws. Why bother with a bunch of balance wheel screws if your going to have a regulator.

Interesting as well that the balance stud and regulator are the same design that Unitas used when they first designed the original movement.

So is RGM claiming they made this movement, including the design, or did they buy an ebauch and refinish a few parts and call it their own.

[FxrAndy]

I think the screws on the balence wheel are just an attempt to make the movement more complicted than it has to be and therefore justifiy its price,

The hand hold has puzzeled me for a while and i see no reson for it either

Forth wheel jewel looks a little close to the edge but then again i have a skeleton that is quite tight that i finished the other day

An itersting point is that these if it is a swiss ebouche come from ETA and therefor swatch, who shoud not be selling ebouche any more, so that opens the question where is the movement made it it is not from swatch???

[RWG Technical]

There is still loads of ebauch and ETA movements available on the open market. I can buy 100+ ETA any caliber right now...if I had the money...

[FxrAndy]

The movements yes but unaseblebled, i wonder who is making the bridges and balances also

[freddy333]

I agree with Ziggy. It looks like a refinished ETA.

[FxrAndy]

I would say a reworked 6497, it is fucking nice though!

I agree with Ziggy. It looks like a refinished ETA.

As i said i would like to know who is making the bridges, winding, wheels ect though

[Demsey]

A lot of the observations and concerns here, were raised @ TZ last Feb. Meh, it's a good <read>.

The watch:

Nice.

[RWG Technical]

Thanks for the link Dems.

What I find interesting, apart from the fact it looks virtually identical to an ETA, is the statement that they "designed" the movement themselves. If that was true, compare the pallet cock to the ETA one, it's identical, would you not think that if you actually designed the movement from scratch, you would vary ever so slightly the design of the parts from the ETA models, for example, make the cock one sided or a different shape than the ETA.

The fact that that part is identical to ETA tells me that the mainplate is an ebauch from ETA, why else would it be identical?

I'll bet each and every gear in the train is interchangeable with an ETA off the shelf...but I'll probably never be able to prove it.

[FxrAndy]

I would even say that they are using the standard holes for the other screw needed for the second wheel (ETA part 220) cock that is on the basic eta base plate

[Guest avitt]

I believe that RGM get their cases from Roland Kemmner (erkahund on eBay).

[Demsey]

I would even say that they are using the standard holes for the other screw needed for the second wheel (ETA part 220) [censored] that is on the basic eta base plate

Not a 'watch works' kind of guy Rob/Andy, but I did gather from the text from RGM's site; there are three "untapped and unobtrusive" holes in the plate that were 'fore engineered' for future complication modules to be added to this caliber at a later date (hmmmm a movement 'system') I think I made sense of that statement looking at the pic of the movement.

Anyhoo, I am going to try and dig for a statement, one way or another, that either links this caliber to ETA or refutes the idea. It will have to come out of the horological periphery though. To read the literature from RGM, you would think they invented the 'watch'. They are purdy proud of themselves. Rightfully so, perhaps not so much?

Sidebar:

Clicking around here and there, I actually linked a watch web site with a forum that is dedicated to Rose Engine Guilloche and Straight Line styles bridge decoration. They too are intersted with the 801 caliber. <fascinating>.

This could be your next calling Rob. An opportunity to meld your art and your engineering.

[Bazz]

If I remember correctly they claim they used Howard movements as the inspiration.

Quick gif I made with an ETA

[Demsey]

That's pretty sharp Bazz!

Here's another shot of the ETA/Unitas in a Sinn for comparison. As RG pointed out, the balance [censored] detail and similarity is glaring.............

[Demsey]

MmmmmmmmmmK from the RGM official site:

.............Mr. Murphy felt strongly that the movement should have a recognizably American character and be produced, as much as possible, in Lancaster County, where RGM is located. Though in the current state of American horology it was unavoidable that some components such as jewels, balance and hairspring be outsourced to Swiss specialists

[gran]

MmmmmmmmmmK from the RGM official site:

Hmmmmmm, I suppose. But and still there were cases being made on TZ that this caliber, as well as the ETA, both benefitted from old American pocket watch movement design/layout. The argument being; it (the current Swiss ETA caliber) has come full circle.

Good point Nixon! Full circle indeed and this shows how little the "watch movement" technology have changed in the last 100years...save some of the top luxury watches in house movements, those that create watches that no longer look like watches and most importantly SEIKOs spring drive movement (even if its a hybrid)

[RWG Technical]

I believe that there is only one supplier of hairsprings in the world, part of the Swatch group of course.

Given that the tooling to make pivots and the tooling to make wheels (gears) cost in the hundred's of thousands of dollars each, and you have to make many thousands of movements to even try and recoupe your costs, it's really unlikely that they are making anything for this movement in house except for maybe some of the plates and bridges, and the decoration on them.

[Member X]

I guess that adds weight to the notion that when you buy (expensive) gen with an in house movement, you are actually moving the watch game forward rather than paying just for a label.

[gran]

I guess that adds weight to the notion that when you buy (expensive) gen with an in house movement, you are actually moving the watch game forward rather than paying just for a label.

Probably it is so! so in most cases you are paying for the label but as The Zigmeister might add an inhouse movement is not necesarily better than something that has been around for years..or better than ETA....sometimes I am worried that movements made 30 to 100 years ago were better than most workings we see today....talking about complications, repeaters and what have you...but obviously most of us will never own such complicated pieces of machinery do to both price and taste..difficult to measure progress. I guess many tourbillions and the like are fairly new inventions and thus improvements.