Regulating a DG2813

[Dudemeister]

I recently purchased a low cost Breitling SFSO from one our members, and I really like the watch. After setting it , I noticed that it was running quite fast. It would gain about 10-12 seconds per day, so I thought that I would give it a try at adjusting the regulator. While the movement doesn't have a proper regulator system, it can still be adjusted by simply moving the balance spring lever. Here is what I did (Picture courtesy Cousins UK):

After going at it it for a couple of days, I was able to get the adjustment almost dead on. The watch is still fast, but it gains about 3 seconds per 48 hours.

Happy the results I started wearing the watch, only to notice that it started gaining again. Not as bad as before, but it still gains about 10 seconds every 48 hours. I put the watch on the bench and synchronized it again to US Time. After 48 hours it about 3 seconds. So obviously the the movement behaves differently depending whether it's being worn or not.

So here is the question, why would it run faster while it's being worn (to me it's counter intuitive), and is there a way to minimize that difference.

Thanks

[Guest HaloArchive]

Watches generally run faster or slower when they are sitting. Generally slower when the face is down.

[Jkay]

COSC rated movements are "adjusted to five positions" ... what this means is that any movement except a tourbillion runs faster or slower depending on if it's face up, face down, crown up, crown down .. etc etc. These are the "positions" mentioned.

Watches run faster or slower depending on heat, position .. regulated movements have a tiny "swan neck" that pushes on the balance adjusting lever when it heats up .. compensating for the way heat or cold affects the speed at which the balance runs.

Also, I will mention that as the oil in your movement gradually evaporates over time, it runs faster.

[Dudemeister]

COSC rated movements are "adjusted to five positions" ... what this means is that any movement except a tourbillion runs faster or slower depending on if it's face up, face down, crown up, crown down .. etc etc. These are the "positions" mentioned.

Watches run faster or slower depending on heat, position .. regulated movements have a tiny "swan neck" that pushes on the balance adjusting lever when it heats up .. compensating for the way heat or cold affects the speed at which the balance runs.

Also, I will mention that as the oil in your movement gradually evaporates over time, it runs faster.

OK, but if I adjust it so that it's more accurate while I'm wearing it, it will then start loosing time while it's just sitting there. So is adjustment going to be an exercise in compromise? Or is there a way to reduce the discrepancy.

I've heard people talking about watches being "out of beat" referencing the watch not beating properly at it's native BPS (21,600 or 28,800). Could this discrepancy be the result of that?

[P4GTR]

IMO, your time variations over 48 hour spans are within an acceptable range for a 2813 movement.

[Jkay]

I think perhaps you are expecting WAY too much from a mechanical watch. If 5 seconds a day makes you crazy, then perhaps a Quartz replica is more your cup of tea?

REAL multi-thousand dollar mechanical watches run +5 seconds a day.

Im absolutely not trying to be insulting here; it just seems like you don't understand that even expensive mechanical watches are not 1/500th as accurate as a cheap Quartz watch.

[Dudemeister]

I think perhaps you are expecting WAY too much from a mechanical watch. If 5 seconds a day makes you crazy, then perhaps a Quartz replica is more your cup of tea?

REAL multi-thousand dollar mechanical watches run +5 seconds a day.

Im absolutely not trying to be insulting here; it just seems like you don't understand that even expensive mechanical watches are not 1/500th as accurate as a cheap Quartz watch.

Yes, I'm aware that a mechanical watch will probably never be as accurate as a quartz, but it still has the potential for good accuracy. I mean what did we do before the advent of the quartz watch. Were we condemned to loosing seconds here and minutes there and never knowing what the correct time was? A watch that is 5 seconds per day too slow will loose nearly 1/2 hour in a year, while the guy next to you who's watch is running 5 seconds too fast, could be an hour ahead of yours, yet you'd both be wrong. What if you didn't have a means to re-sync your watch? Like the song says: "Does anybody really know what time it is?"...

...Anyway I'm digressing...

You're right, I don't expect a cheap mass manufactured movement like the 2813 or whatever that is inside my watch to be able to achieve Gen like accuracy, I'm just trying to learn "what make it tick" if you'll pardon the pun. If I was able to adjust it to within 2-3 seconds for one position, how can I adjusted for another position without screwing up the first adjustment. That's what I'm after.

If I was after quartz like accuracy, I'd still be wearing my Seikos (which I still do occasionally), but I can also appreciate a miniature mechanical wonder, which is why I'm here.

[Jkay]

Back in the day, people set their watches and house clocks to "central clocks" like those in a bank or a railway station or the town hall and they did this frequently .. like every few days. Time was communicated to these central clocks from intricate master clocks capable of 0.0002 seconds a day accuracy, via telegraph and such. When the telephone was invented, you could call the phone company and they could give you the "official time" to set your house clock.

You wind your house clock every couple days, and reset it's time.

What you say about your watch not performing like a gen .. I beg to differ .. 5 seconds a day is VERY gen-like. TEN seconds a day is considered the very edge for a respectable timepiece. Watches which can be adjusted to multiple positions have multiple setting areas. and I quote:

"Adjustment" includes opening and closing the pins on the regulator possibly changing the balance spring curves and even repolising and shaping balance pivots, as well as adding or removing weight for points on the balance wheel. A really good adjuster coudl run a set of test and get a watch to acceptable adjustment in one try.

Also, let me correct something I said earlier .. a swan neck regulator is just a fancy spring loaded timing adjustment, not a temperature compensation device. Temperature is compensated by a bi-metallic balance wheel.

[Dudemeister]

.. 5 seconds a day is VERY gen-like. TEN seconds a day is considered the very edge for a respectable timepiece. Watches which can be adjusted to multiple positions have multiple setting areas.

So what you're saying is that there probably is no simple way of adjusting the watch any further, and that in its current state is more than acceptable.

I'll buy that (for now). I need to start doing some similar testing on the other watches I have.

Here is something interesting. I have a cheap, PVD Daytona with faux chronos which is probably powered by something similar to the DG2813. I never opened that watch and I only wore it maybe less than a week before I put it in my watch winder, where it's been sitting for the last 2 months. As a habit I set my watches to the second prior to putting them in winder. I just checked it, and it's 45 seconds slow. That puts the accuracy of this watch to less then 1 second per day !! Not bad for a $80 watch.

Some of the other watches I looked at are near right on (10-15 seconds) but they have only been in the winder for less than a week. I'll have to check them.

[Jkay]

From the COSC wikipedia page ... "Only 3% of Swiss watch production receives COSC certification" and "since 1973, this entails -4 to +6 seconds per day accuracy"

So .. the finest "Exceptional Chronometer" from swiss houses can be +6 a day.

[Dudemeister]

Well, I don't have any means to test this as the COSC would, but in my informal "long" test which began this past Saturday at 10PM, I set the watch to the second using the US Time web page..

I then proceeded to wear the watch during the day, and setting it down before going to bed every evening. So the watch is getting an approximate "usage model" of 2/3 on the wrist, 1/3 on the table resting face up. I would say that this is typical use that most of us adhere to (unless you like sleeping with your watch on).

I plan on using it this way for a week, and posting the final results, but as of tonight at 9:00PM (almost 4 days), the total deviation is about 7 seconds. So I think I'll take that. It looks very consistent at the moment.

I was planning on replacing the movement with a ETA 2836-2 I just bought, but seeing how well this one works, I'll wait for now. BTW, does anyone know if the hands from the DG2813 will fit the ETA?

Also, where can I find a movement "fitting" ring for the ETA? The original movement has a plastic ring, but I don't think that will fit the ETA all that well, besides I'd rather have a metal ring.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Dudemeister

[fakemaster]

I mean what did we do before the advent of the quartz watch. Were we condemned to loosing seconds here and minutes there and never knowing what the correct time was?

They didn't care about seconds. If they were bothered by anything it was the manual winding which is what most people had. And they praised the day the quartz came out. You'll find most older people do not wear autos.

[Dudemeister]

Well, I don't have any means to test this as the COSC would, but in my informal "long" test which began this past Saturday at 10PM, I set the watch to the second using the US Time web page..

I then proceeded to wear the watch during the day, and setting it down before going to bed every evening. So the watch is getting an approximate "usage model" of 2/3 on the wrist, 1/3 on the table resting face up. I would say that this is typical use that most of us adhere to (unless you like sleeping with your watch on).

Well, I forgot to check the watch last night at 10:00PM, but this morning at 11:30 AM, I checked it and the watch is 16 seconds fast. Therefore over a 181.5 hour period, it gained 16 seconds, so the hourly deviation is 0.089 seconds, daily deviation is 2.13 seconds!

So what do you think, should I apply for a COSC certificate. ?

I'm happy with it the way it is. I also took some long exposure pictures, which show this watch has a very smooth sweep, more than likely 8 ticks per second. Is it a 28,800 bph ? I don't know, but I'm not planning on replacing it anytime soon.

[jmb]

Geeze, I thought I wuz picky! ;-) I adjust mine then wear it and time it over 24 hours. I have my el-cheapo sub to about +3 sec/day so I'm done with it - it started out about 15 sec/day slow. I only care about regulating it so it's close when worn. When it's in the drawer I could give a rat's butt whether it keeps good time or not! :-D

[Rolexman]

Gaining or loosing time depending on it's position is typical for a watch which beat is off. Have it professionally regulated.

[Dudemeister]

Gaining or loosing time depending on it's position is typical for a watch which beat is off. Have it professionally regulated.

I don't know... considering that at the moment it's close enough to qualify for COSC certification (at least according to some here), I think I'll leave well enough alone.

I don't really care whether it's accurate in every position you can hold it, as long as the average deviation based on "my normal" usage is low. Having it professionally regulated will not guarantee better accuracy than 2-3 seconds/day, will it?