Who makes the Best Daytona - Cost not an issue

[metalshopper]

If cost is no issue, I suggest either gen, or building...

Yes, I am really loving those.

Is there any way to get a "raw" el primero movement somehwhere direct or do I have to rip it out of an old watch.

So the rest of the watch is Genuines? (Case/Dial/Bezel, ect???)

If there were on of these rep dealers that could make 1:1 rep of the case/dials/hands/ect this conversion would be just the cost of the movement + rep parts...

< $2000?

[ubiquitous]

The EP400/Ebel 134 that's in my white dial 16520 came a la carte; no watch to dismantle or part out to procure the movement on that one. They do turn up every now and then, though it's been a year or so since I've seen one for sale in this manner.

The El Primero 3019/400 was a movement that had to be sourced from a complete watch:

This is an older movement, but still beats at 36000bph; I also made sure to get the 31j version (there are some 17j variations out there, I seem to recall). Due to the age, I had Zigmeister give it an overhaul prior to putting it to use.

The black dial 16520 has a non-genuine mid case, though the dial, bezel, etc. are gen. So, parts are definitely out there... Though I do think a gen dial is a must for this kind of project.

[metalshopper]

The EP400/Ebel 134 that's in my white dial 16520 came a la carte; no watch to dismantle or part out to procure the movement on that one. They do turn up every now and then, though it's been a year or so since I've seen one for sale in this manner.

The El Primero 3019/400 was a movement that had to be sourced from a complete watch:

This is an older movement, but still beats at 36000bph; I also made sure to get the 31j version (there are some 17j variations out there, I seem to recall). Due to the age, I had Zigmeister give it an overhaul prior to putting it to use.

The black dial 16520 has a non-genuine mid case, though the dial, bezel, etc. are gen. So, parts are definitely out there... Though I do think a gen dial is a must for this kind of project.

I definitely don't mind all rep parts as long as they are 1:1.

Is the rep case on your black dial daytona normal sized? do you know who makes those? All of the daytona reps I've seen so far are so obvious because of the fat case and extra high Bezel.

[ubiquitous]

The case used for my black dial shares the same dimensions as my white dial 16520.

[southcoast68]

These folks offer a stainless steel case kit for the 16520 Daytona (like Ubi's) for $1650 US, which probably does not include the dial even though it is pictured;

http://www.jewelryandwatch.com/index1.html

Many members have done these projects and can probably attest that it was a long, expensive road. I only got as far as getting the dial for one when I got stopped in my tracks, its just too expensive a project for me. Keep in mind that the correct hands must be fitted, if the donor movement has a date function, this has to be removed properly for the movement to fit the case. Many of these aftermarket parts need some modification to fit properly as well as having the movement serviced, these projects are not for the faint of heart.

Now I'll take this opportunity to get on the soapbox in the hope that someone in the rep making industry listens. Recently they have released new versions of the Omega Planet Ocean and Constellation chronos as well as a new version of the Zenith Defy chronos, all of which are advertised as new format A7750 movements with closer sub-dial spacing, the Zenith is actually advertised as having "same subdial spacing as El-Primero". If this is all true, then why the hell are they all putting so much energy in bringing out the same seconds at 6 timebomb in hundreds of different flavors as well as comming up with amazing reps of everything BUT a good solid Daytona? As said above, they don't care because they don't have to care. If they can do the El-Primero subdial spacing right, do a high quality dial for it (like the ones on the current seconds at 6 timebomb), and figure out a way of not having the bezel as conical as a volcano, then I would buy and finally be satisfied in the Daytona category.

I am curious as to what WM9's project will be.

So, if cost is no object your only option to build a real nice, dependable Daytona is to go the franken route. Even if it costs near the $5k to $6k range, its still half the cost of the genuine.

Cheers

[JoJo35]

If cost is no issue, I suggest either gen, or building...

I came to that same crossroads...

...you can see what path I ultimately chose:

[metalshopper]

Now I'll take this opportunity to get on the soapbox in the hope that someone in the rep making industry listens. Recently they have released new versions of the Omega Planet Ocean and Constellation chronos as well as a new version of the Zenith Defy chronos, all of which are advertised as new format A7750 movements with closer sub-dial spacing, the Zenith is actually advertised as having "same subdial spacing as El-Primero". If this is all true, then why the hell are they all putting so much energy in bringing out the same seconds at 6 timebomb in hundreds of different flavors as well as comming up with amazing reps of everything BUT a good solid Daytona? As said above, they don't care because they don't have to care. If they can do the El-Primero subdial spacing right, do a high quality dial for it (like the ones on the current seconds at 6 timebomb), and figure out a way of not having the bezel as conical as a volcano, then I would buy and finally be satisfied in the Daytona category.

I am curious as to what WM9's project will be.

So, if cost is no object your only option to build a real nice, dependable Daytona is to go the franken route. Even if it costs near the $5k to $6k range, its still half the cost of the genuine.

Cheers

Well said. I am very optimistic on the new WM9 Daytona since their other products seem to be a success in making 1:1 reps...

[freddy333]

You will need to research/locate some of the sellers listed (addresses may have changed since the article was written), but this will cost you less than a grand & will fool all but the most knowledgeable WIS (assuming they are in very close proximity)

[kikom3]

WM9's planned daytona though plans to use a 7753? which is still thicker meaning thicker caseback.

Franken still the way to go. Mine assembled and overhauled by The Zigmeister :

[metalshopper]

WM9's planned daytona though plans to use a 7753? which is still thicker meaning thicker caseback.

Franken still the way to go. Mine assembled and overhauled by The Zigmeister :

oh, I thought it was going to be a thinner movement because of something about not having to add the 11 extra gears???

Guess not.

[ubiquitous]

Consider that an EP400 is 6.5mm in profile, whereas a Valjoux 7753 is 7.9mm; 1.4mm doesn't seem like a lot, but when we're dealing with something as small as a watch case and movement, it will definitely add to the height of the case/case back.

Also, the 7753 will not have the same subdial positions as the El Primero 400. The registers are positioned too far out towards the edge of the dial (an EP400 has the registers grouped fairly close together).

[southcoast68]

Consider that an EP400 is 6.5mm in profile, whereas a Valjoux 7753 is 7.9mm; 1.4mm doesn't seem like a lot, but when we're dealing with something as small as a watch case and movement, it will definitely add to the height of the case/case back.

Also, the 7753 will not have the same subdial positions as the El Primero 400. The registers are positioned too far out towards the edge of the dial (an EP400 has the registers grouped fairly close together).

This would be a deal breaker for me. One of the things, IMO, about the Daytonas personality is the subdial spacing. If they are too far out, it just looks bad. I am wondering about the "new closer subdial A7750" that the cartel folks advertise for the new Zenith Defy. If the subdials are infact "same as ElPrimero", then the dial issue could be solved with a good quality rep dial (or franken one using a gen dial). the you would still have a movement that is too thick and have to use a case that is too thick. However, if the "thinner" rep Daytona case was used, and some re-work to the bezel assembly (so it would not be too conical and still have a nice rise to the crystal) was done, you would be on to something. Of couse, the thinner case that Freddy used for his mod project a while back may be hard to get, even if you found a rep dealer who advertised that case, there would be no guarantee that that is what you would get.

So, here is the recipe;

1. New "closer subdial" A7750 from the Zenith Defy rep.

2. Rep Daytona hand set (hoping what you get actually fits the movement properly).

3. Gen or aftermarket dial (hard to get, would be better if rep factory made a good one of).

4. "Thinner" older Daytona rep case as Freddy used in his project.

5. Rep oyster bracelet.

At this stage, only the too conical bezel and caseback would be the only outstanding issues. The caseback could maybe be taken from one of the "faux chrono" Daytona reps, as some of these may have a caseback that looks closer to the gen. The bezel assembly would require some case modding, and even then it may not be possible to re-work the case to get a gen crystal and bezel (or aftermarket) to fit and have the watch still work properly.

A lot of work to go through, and AFAIK, the new closer sub-dial A7750s' are not that common yet to be able to know its durability, so there may still be some problems. IMO, using the 7753 for a Daytona project is going in the wrong direction if the sub-dial spacing is going to be wrong, but we shall see. I still think that if the rep folks can do a Zenith Defy ElPrimero with better sub-dial spacing, then why not the Daytona? In fact, why not also the Zenith Rainbow, Zenith DeLuca, Omega Speedy-Pro, etc.?

Trying to answer the question of the best Daytona rep project. Seems like we all got a way to go.

Cheers

[ubiquitous]

Well, in terms of using a 7750, I agree that the thin case used for the sec@6:00 116520 is the way to go.

Here is a comparison of a thin profile 7750 seconds at 6:00 case with my El Primero case:

7750 case on top:

And a couple of pics of the 116520 build I did for my Uncle (his watch has been long since dead, BTW):

The profile of the mid-case is about the same, nice low profile/flat bezel and shallow rehaut, but the back of the case has a flange/lip that provides the height to allow fit of the movement. Since the height is added with the flange, the shape of the mid case body is more correct; on the wrist, you are less likely to notice the added height.

[southcoast68]

Ubi, if you don't mind me asking, was the bezel and crystal you used on your Uncle's project standard rep issue, or was it aftermarket replacement for Rolex?

IF, the entire case was rep issue, and IF I can find one of these cases, and IF the new "closer sub-dial" A7750 will fit, and IF the aftermarket Zenith Daytona dial I have fits the movement, then maybe I will be able to build one of these at some point.

A lot of IFs there, but I think its worth me looking into. Now, all I need is more $$ (well, don't we all)

[ubiquitous]

SC-

The case used for that watch started as all rep. The only parts that I swapped out were the crown, tube and pushers. I should have probably changed out the crystal for him as well since it's a bit too low, but he didn't want to spend a ton of money on it.

Most of what went into the project were items I already had and gave him. The only thing he had to pay for was the movement, dial and hands...

[bertieng]

Building the almost correct Daytona is very hard, even when you have all the parts ready. Getting the gen. case is basically almost zero chances, this really depends on your luck. You can get a good copy case but the cost is not small, and it only accepts gen. parts.

Having the A7750 built to the spec of EL400 or Rolex 4130, you can forget it. These movement are simply so special and complicated to copy. To get both the subdial spacing and thickness correct is far beyond the investment that the rep maker will be willing make. In this sense, I dare to say a correctly made or even close to gen. Daytona rep. will not be seen on the market in the foreseeable future.

Trust me, be ready to go crazy, be ready to spend months and $$$$ to get the parts, be ready to spend hours to get the assembly correct, be ready to ruin numbers of gen. parts particularly the hand set(then spend another round of parts searching), if you decide to build the franken.

If someone who is willing to sell their franken at 5-6K, and if you really is a die hard fan for the perfect Daytona, my advice is grab it because with the amount of energy, time, $$$$, patience all added up together is well above this value.

[lanikai]

is jetmid back ???