ICHS GMT IIc ETA Movement Question

[pilot]

Morning all,

Many thanks to all of you for voluntarily providing so much helpful information for forum noobs. I've had several reps of varying quality from SM's to DD's and several in between.

With the GMT IIc having made such an impression I'm fighting the urge more and more to have one on the winder.

The CHS version appears to be a bit of a mess, By-Tor's review of the ICHS version got me thinking about exactly what is going on inside this watch.

Having ruled out the CHS variation. I'm keen to understand what the movement inside the ICHS GMT IIc is doing that differently to a normal 2836-2 (which from previous experience is a sturdy movement). I have looked at the reviews covering this and from what i can understand the GMT function is accomplished by simply slowing the GMT hand using a larger diameter ring??? In which case my worries may be unfounded as the function of the movement is not being technically changed, just fooled into doing something it doesn't know its doing.

I have spoken to Andrew at Trusty Time and he has assured me that an authentic ETA GMT IIc can be dispatched within 7-12 days, although PT may be a better option due to them being in the UK. Both dealer reviews seem good so any recent personal opinions welcomed.

Many thanks

P

[RWG Technical]

The 2836 is not designed to be a GMT movement, it doesn't come with a GMT function, it is modified and turned into a GMT movement.

Adding the GMT function requires:

- a gear to take the turning motion from the hour wheel and transfer it to a new gear (the GMT one)

- and the new GMT gear which sits on top of the hour wheel

There is also one other gear added near the stem to allow you to set the GMT hand, the gear is not needed to make the GMT function operate, it is simply there to allow adjustment.

The movement is technically changed, since you have added extra gears.

[panerai153]

To add to The Zigmeisters explanation, there have been quite a few threads started on this and other watch forums about the 2836 as a GMT movement. If you will look through some of these you will see some pretty graphic photos of the "baling wire and duct tape" methods that the rep manufacturers use to make the 2836 into a GMT movement. Forget sophisticated Modules that are used by genuine manufacturers to add on complications to a watch movement, these are crude attempts to make something into something it isn't. Back in 2006 when i started buying reps and participating in forum discussions, the 2893-2 movement was available. It was more expensive, but most of the rep sellers offered the 2893-2 as an alternative. I had two very nice PAM reps ,a 029 and a 063 I believe, that both had 2893-2 movements. They were great watches, kept good time and had a flawless GMT function.As the 2893-2's became less and less available, the rep manufacturers switched over to the 2836-2 with the GMT modification. Almost immediately post started popping up on the forums about the GMT hand not working, watches stopping, etc. The Zigmeister in one of his posts fairly early on, expressed his frustration at the obvious poor guality and "unfixability" (Is that a word!) of the modified 2836-2 movements. In fact he stated that he would not work on the movement.

If you want the watch, buy it. I have one coming in myself with the 2836-2 modified ,it's supposed to be a genuine Swiss ETA movement. Plan is, wear it and see what happens. If it craps out, i'm hoping that a 2893-2 movement can be swapped out. If not it's a paperweight.

Just My Dos Centavos

Arthur

[By-Tor]

To add to The Zigmeisters explanation, there have been quite a few threads started on this and other watch forums about the 2836 as a GMT movement. If you will look through some of these you will see some pretty graphic photos of the "baling wire and duct tape" methods that the rep manufacturers use to make the 2836 into a GMT movement. Forget sophisticated Modules that are used by genuine manufacturers to add on complications to a watch movement, these are crude attempts to make something into something it isn't. Back in 2006 when i started buying reps and participating in forum discussions, the 2893-2 movement was available. It was more expensive, but most of the rep sellers offered the 2893-2 as an alternative. I had two very nice PAM reps ,a 029 and a 063 I believe, that both had 2893-2 movements. They were great watches, kept good time and had a flawless GMT function.As the 2893-2's became less and less available, the rep manufacturers switched over to the 2836-2 with the GMT modification. Almost immediately post started popping up on the forums about the GMT hand not working, watches stopping, etc. The Zigmeister in one of his posts fairly early on, expressed his frustration at the obvious poor guality and "unfixability" (Is that a word!) of the modified 2836-2 movements. In fact he stated that he would not work on the movement.

If you want the watch, buy it. I have one coming in myself with the 2836-2 modified ,it's supposed to be a genuine Swiss ETA movement. Plan is, wear it and see what happens. If it craps out, i'm hoping that a 2893-2 movement can be swapped out. If not it's a paperweight.

Just My Dos Centavos

Arthur

People always put these two modifications into the same basket, which is totally wrong (imho).

There are 2 different "faux" ETA GMT's: Correct hand stack modification and the wrong hand stack "GMT" modification.

Based on my own experience, the reliability between these two models is like a night and day.

I'm a big fan of 2nd timezone watches and I've owned many: 4 CHS movements. 3 of them had serious problems. 2 died within a month. One is running fine after 4 years (but I haven't touched the independent hour setting at all). But based on both Ziggy's report and member feedback it's safe to say this modification is absolute garbage.

I've also owned more than 10 WHS ETA movements in the past 5 years. Not even one single of them had any problems. NONE. Just ask any veteran RWG member if they had any... they'll all answer no. Then ask bklm1234 how many WHS movements he has sold... probably hundreds. He'll also tell you that there are very, very few problems... ever.

I've only heard of some rare problems about the 24h hand not following properly... never of any fatal ones. But when the CHS version dies (or breaks) it's completely trashable. There are no spare parts and the "fork" that operates the independent hour hand is made of "rubber bands and iron wires". The usual problem is that the hour hand starts to "slip" because the whole system "loosens" or wears out. In the case of CHS movement, it's the hour hand which is usually slipping. That means you can't even use the watch for its basic purpose: to read time.

The WHS might be a bastardized movement and I have no idea how serviceable it is... but reliability wise it's not even 1/100 as bad as the CHS... and while it's not a "real" GMT movement it serves its purpose (to show the time of the 2nd timezone). Maybe it's "horologically cheap" but I have no idea why people insist on calling the reliability crap because both my own experiences and the member feedback have always told a completely different story.

[panerai153]

By-Tor,

I stand corrected. I was getting the CHS and the WHS interchanged . After deciding to by a GMTII A few days ago,I searched the forum for 2836. Lots of posts, and the thread by Zigmeister with all the photos. I went back and read Zigmeisters review of the 2836-2. Unforttunately, I got called away from my computer and didn't really read the article in depth. I do remember that when the first 2836 GMT movements came out there were some folks who reported problems. Possibly the reason was they were the CHS models, or the modifications today are much superior to the first attempts.I do remember too that a lot of the complaints were about the GMT hand not keeping correct time. losing time over a period of time. Of course what you said is true. It may not function properly as a GMT, but that problem didn't affect the basic watch functions.

My question and possibly you can answer this is, why don't the rep manufacturers "clone" a 2893-2 movement? It's a true GMT and the Swiss ETA versions are pretty durable.Is the problem just not enough demand for GMT reps to justify the tooling costs?

Arthur

[freddy333]

For whatever it is worth, I second Ziggy's & By-Tor's comments. The CHS GMT is, at best, a Rube Goldberg 'fix' that teeters on the edge of self-destruction due to its patchwork construction. This is not to say that every CHS GMT is absolutely destined for early-term ruination. A few members' CHS GMTIICs have been utterly reliable (mine being 1 of the most dependable & accurate watches - gen or rep - that I have ever owned). However, on the other hand, the WHS GMT has a proven track record of long-term reliability, backed by its wide-spread use. Unlike the complicated 11-gear carnival ride that turns a common 7750 into the enigmatic seconds-@-6 Daytona heartbeat, the WHS GMT, as Ziggy explained, requires only a couple of additional parts & these do not appear to over-tax the engine's performance or the movement's overall longevity.

Anyone considering a GMT should read (all of) By-Tor's GMT reviews before proceeding with ANY purchase. This would save alot of frustration for the buyer & repetitiously hackneyed questions for the rest of us.

[FxrAndy]

I've only heard of some rare problems about the 24h hand not following properly... never of any fatal ones. But when the CHS version dies (or breaks) it's completely trashable. There are no spare parts and the "fork" that operates the independent hour hand is made of "rubber bands and iron wires". The usual problem is that the hour hand starts to "slip" because the whole system "loosens" or wears out. In the case of CHS movement, it's the hour hand which is usually slipping. That means you can't even use the watch for its basic purpose: to read time.

My EX2 has this problem, i stripped it down and found the pinion that allows the GMT hand to be independently set was bone dry and slipping, i cleaned and added a drop of D5 (this added a bit of sticktion and it has been perfect ever since!

[By-Tor]

The WHS modification of ETA has always fascinated me. I even wrote an article about it. Read it here. As I said, I've found the system very reliable, and while it has nothing to do with a real GMT movement(techically), the function is just as useful. Of course there's a huge compromise to make (horologically)... otherwise we couldn't have $200 replications of $6000 watches.

Perhaps the serviceability might be the "achilles heel"? I have no real technical knowledge of the movements... I can only look at the functionality and base my opinion on the member feedback. It would actually be great to see Ziggy's technical review of the WHS movement.

The funniest thing about this Chinese invention is that there are genuine watches that use this mod now. Here is one... Bernhardt Globemaster.

@Arthur: I recall you owned a beautiful 1675. Rolex 1575 movement is functionally similar as this. There just isn't luxury like adjustable 24 hand available. I always found the purpose of old orange hand Explorer II (with fixed bezel) very "questionable". With 1575 you can't use it as a 2nd timezone watch. This system works great with a watch like Explorer II. The owner just has to understand how to set it properly.

[panerai153]

By- Tor

Of all the watches I've bought sold traded over the past 20 years, the only one that has stayed and will stay is the 16750. I wore it yesterday and brother it is still the best looking and most comfortable watch in my watch box. It truly is one of the very few watches that disappear on your wrist. You have to look down to check if it's still there! I agree the fixed GMT hand is different, but for me the 16750 has more utility than the newer adjustable hand models, I can set the time to my time zone I'm in and rotate the bezel to the 2nd time zone I'm interested in and it is just foolproof. When my wife is in Europe, she really gets Po'ed if I call her at 3 AM, because I set my watch incorrectly. With the 16750 that isn't a problem.

What you are saying then is the WHS models work similar to the 1575 Rolex movement, where the GMT hand is basically a non adjustable 24 hour hand? I would imagine the problem with the CHS movement is trying to make it into an adjustable GMT hand like the modern Rolex GMTII's I would suspect that adding that adjustability component in would create a lot of problems.

Arthur

[By-Tor]

@Arthur: This is very common misunderstanding. The old GMT Masters (like 1675 and 16750) are totally different in every way. The 1575 movement is not a complication but the 3185 (which the new Rolex GMT's use) is.

I own the modern GMT Master II 16710 with 3185 movement. That watch doesn't have an independently adjustable GMT hand... it has an adjustable hour hand which moves in one hour increments. The function is similar on the CHS replica (except that the gen doesn't have a quickset date, which is terribly annoying). The 24h hand and 12h hand are always in sync automatically.

I meant that the WHS version is similar with 1575 in the sense that the hand stack is the same and the hour hand isn't adjustable. The freely adjustable GMT hand is totally weird on the reps because it moves freely around the dial and the owner can set it to any position (even not syncing with the hour hand). That's why you have to set the second timezone in-sync manually. If the factories simply removed the independent 24h hand setting, it would be exactly similar functionality as on 1575.

The 1575 movement is functional as a second timezone watch on your GMT Master because the watch has rotating bezel. But Explorer II Orange hand has a fixed bezel. How can you use it as a 2nd timezone watch? There is no way. Only the "cave dwellers" can see the beauty of this feature, which makes it extremely pretentious model (imho). The modern Explorer II's use the 3185 movements so they function perfectly as GMT watches.