Is DSN really trustworthy?

[mengshi]

I'm just going to stick to your queries even though personally I feel your style of posting and questions extremely aggressive and very unreceptive to comments, but here are my answers which I feel will undoubtedly get shot down by yours truly, but they are what I know them to be since I started collecting PAM reps about 3 years ago.

DSN has been around for sometime and all who are into PAMs have used him at some point or another for parts or whole watches. I generally get parts from him, but have on several occasions gotten whole watches, both "Swiss" and "Asian" movements from him. He differs from the standard cartel watches due to the pieces he has, the casesets, crowns, crownguards are either better or worst off than Cartel pieces, depending on model so it really boils down to individual models. There are a plethora or comparison reviews for his pieces, several in my sig.

1) To address your first question, we need to discuss the history of replica PAM movements, I'll stick to primarily the current style of PAM movements and ignore the OP II versions and only deal with the OP XI ones, with either the stamped PANERAI bridges or engraved Cotes de Geneve ones.

Essentially, the OP XI movements back in 2007 came in two forms, either swiss or asian. The swiss could not be called pure swiss movements but more "hybrid" versions whereby the baseplate, gears, hairspring and everything else associated with the movement were swiss except the overhead bridges. These were all based on the easily available ETA 6497-1

A swiss based asian bridged 6497-1

Easiest tells were the novidiac shock system in the escapement, the larger teeth in the main gear wheel which denotes the low beat 17k/bph movement and at that time, ETA stamp just under the balance wheel. And the three straight spokes for the balance wheel.

The asian 6497s at that time also were low beat but used the incabloc style shock system instead but had not ETA stamp and overall, their finishing was less than spectacular.

Around October of that year a new series of Asian movements started appearing, these were high beat 21,600bph movements with incabloc shock systems and better finishing and servicing, i.e. these were coming out of the factories lubed and working very well. Several of the more well known modders like Vacc and Flav, all chimed in and said the newer 6497 model was superior to the "swiss" engined movements out there.

Way to spot them was as I mentioned above, the smaller and increased number of gearing teeth and the incabloc escapement. This more closely resembles the 6497-2 movement the gen OP XI utilises with soprod bridges. Also, the spokes on the balance wheel flared out like the gen as they came closer to the outer wheel.

I show two of such movements above, but the one on the right can only be had from another dealer from RG. Its still a base asian movement, but all the gears are highly polished, the main plates white gold plated and the incabloc has the correct "Y" cut in it as per gen.

The swiss movements never changed and still utilised the older novadiac shock system.

So yes, you are correct in saying that DSNs is "wrong" in stating he is using swiss movements, cause they are not PURE swiss movements. But they are generally swiss based parts in there except for the main plate bridges.

Above is a verified swiss based 6497-1 from DSN.

There are many many more differences between movements, just look at this movement quiz put together by Druhlee on the older OPII movement which contains pics of both gen and rep movements and you'll see the length and breadth of issues that can cloud this discussion, especially in hybrid movements.

2) As for prices, it all depends on what you're willing to pay. Little Hero charges $1200 for one of his 111/112/219 creations. Is it worth it? To most no. Yet I own one. Is it perfect? No, there are flaws as I identified in my thread. Am i happy? Very much so.

Is DSN worth the money versus cartel? In most cases, yes. Cartel from online (and I am not talking about your street side haggling with dealers, I live in Singapore and go to Malaysia often, yes you can get superreps as well at lower prices, but for the general public on these boards, they have no such access, so we'll compare apples to apples here if you don't mind). From a Cartel based website, a normal asian high beat 111H would cost $278+shipping thereabouts. DSNs would cost at last check, $340 with asian movement, or $420 with swiss movement including shipping. The differences? Beefier case, slightly thicker crown (though incorrectly beveled), slightly better CGs, thicker in his current series, and this is the clincher that most people go for, better dials and superlume on the numerals. It's a Panerai, and lume is in its blood. His talk about pressure testing his watches etc etc, I'll take that with a pinch of salt, not cause I don't believe he wouldn't do it, just that it sounds like marketing. But point for point, there are a multitude of differences between a DSN watch and a Cartel watch which in some cases can be shown to be qualitatively better and warrant the price difference.

You mentioned his $800 watch, that is using a genuine ETA/SOPROD movement in there, that is why the price jump (ok fine, with asian rotor to have it engraved). A little research first before throwing numbers around.

So all this is subjective. You've shown you had an issue with his prices. Fine.

I've shown that in some cases they are justified versus normally available Cartel watches.

I hope this brings the end to this thread.

Oh and if you have such an issue with DSN, start up a thread in the Rolex or Omega area lamblasting the cartel on their verified genuine swiss 2824 movements, when everyone knows these are no longer the case. Now that is downright false advertising

Merry Christmas all!

This is an excellent post and I highly appreciate it. Great Christmas present!

Now I see the reasons behind the prices but more detailed analysis like yours is needed (Are they in the reviews here?) especially when the replica bridges are added. Your post put a bit more perspective in the article in Replicawatchreport in which The Zigmeister took an Asian 6497-2 apart (Link: http://www.replicawatchreport.com/articles/watchmasters-corner/new-movement-for-replica-panerais.html). Having reread the above, I think the whole movement may be a complete Chinese replica with the modified bridges given the less than Swiss like finishing although the conclusion was that the clone 6497-2 is quite good. So the question now is does DSN put a genuine Swiss 6492-2 with modified Asian 'Panerai" bridges to make it a hydrid?

Incidentally, the movement in mine is a high beat one with the Cote de Geneva engraving but without the Officine Panerai word like the one on the right side. All I need now is to find a friendly watchmaker who will overhaul and properly oil it as well as give it a proper timing adjustment. Also may need to change the dial as I'm not happy with the lume. May just change it to a homage as there is less pressure to be 'perfect' Ha ha.

[unregistered]

Nobody in the rep world that I know of sells in volume Swiss 6497-2 movements with Asian bridges. They are generally all 6497-1 movements. There may be a few guys with good skills who can somehow get ahold of 6497-2 movements and transplant the bridges, but in general, that is not the case.

DSNs Swiss movements would be the same as pictured above, the 6497-1 asian bridged. Just ask him for the beat count for the swiss movements, he'll tell you its 17k+, which indicates a 6497-1.

[Danny Boy]

sorry to bring up an old thread but who is the other dealer on RWG who supplies the movement with the polished teeth? i want one for my 176H... if you don't want to say publicly then a pm would be appreciated!

thanks in advance

danny

[susumon54]

My dear friend,

It seems you have some fears or "cries of help" with regards to sourcing a reputable rep.

To be really honest, until you do make your first purchase from DSN, you will never know.

It would be pointless to scrutinise DSN for his flaws, when practically it IS a few hundred

dollar investment. I guess we have countless more flaws ourselves than his rep's.

And this not knowing will keep you coming here and asking those same questions over and over

again.

-It would be more prudent to understand that at less than 8% of the cost of buying a genuine piece

and realising a mistake.

-DSN pieces are value for money and very inepensive.

-Options are available for you to play around with once you actually have bought a watch from DSN.

-You can always resell on RWG and any rep forum if you feel it is not for you.

But' until you actually take the first-step into making your first purchase here, needleess to say

all of us here are nowhere to begin with.

So after all the posts and replies, the real question here is; "Are you a player or a spectator?"

Cheers

[PeteM]

sorry to bring up an old thread but who is the other dealer on RWG who supplies the movement with the polished teeth? i want one for my 176H... if you don't want to say publicly then a pm would be appreciated!

thanks in advance

danny

I think you might mean LH on RG mate, but he wont sell you one unless you buy one of his watches 111, 112 219

[unregistered]

LH does more than just polish the teeth so I think he's asking for someone else.

[PeteM]

LH does more than just polish the teeth so I think he's asking for someone else.

Your right mate but I havent heard of anyone that only does that maybe Zig on request?? And by the sound of it you aint either but I have seen a thread on here where guys were trying to justify LH high price and one guy mentioned LH 'only polished the teeth' thats why I thought he might mean him.

[tanya]

Girlfight!! Girlfight!!

[PeteM]

Girlfight!! Girlfight!!

Cant be!! I left my handbag at home

[Eton]

I can't believe this post is still going, my eyes are burning from reading through everything! Great effort on everybody's part though!