elwopo Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 Hello all. You'll have to forgive the obvious "noob" question....but there is something I have to ask because it makes no sense to me. There is obviously a HUGE market for rep watches. Lots of dealers....lots of sites....LOTS of spam emails....there's money in it. What I can't understand is why I can go to Wal-Mart and pay 10 bucks for a watch that is (for example) guaranteed water resistant and actually is. Of course it's not a "fine timepiece"....but it looks good....the finish wears for about two years....and there is no disclaimer that you shouldn't wear it while even taking a shower. It's made in the same countries that the reps are. I just snagged 4 watches off the bay that are great daily beaters. 2 Gruen and 2 Benrus. I've had the brands before and they perform well. Water resistant as can be....keep great time....and have a nice finish to them. Got all 4 for $34 plus shipping. So if it's that easy to make something halfway decent....why do repeated problems happen with reps? It's not like the problems can't be fixed. When money is involved......anything is possible. I'm new to this and not sure how the whole acquisition process works for the dealers. What I'm not 'getting' is why a $200 rep has worse 'form and finish' than an 'off the shelf' other brand that costs less than 10% of the price. They're made in the same place...... Is it just that the emperor truly has no clothes......and only a select few make serious coin off that? The whole dynamic seems much more complicated than it needs to be. Maybe it's just me......LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roeod4 Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 2 words......Quality Control There really isn't any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cucumber_Jones Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 You do not know what you are talking about - plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochenbrau Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 I subscribe to the theory that it is benefital for the sellers to produce watches with flaws. This keeps the customers coming back. As for the price difference, there are much more risk invovled in producing and selling a rep compared to one that is ultimately sold in Wal-Mart. As a result, the cost reflects this risk. In addition, having names like "Rolex" and "Panerai" on a watch is going to fetch a higher price than Gruen. I should mention this is just my opinion from the outside (a buyer). I have never been invovled in the business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 I've had a $80 Gruen... and it's definitely NOT the same quality as the best reps. Neither are Alphas and cheaper (21J-based) Invictas. I had a $120 Invicta (with supposed Miyota movement) and the winding crown popped out after 3 days. I've had plenty of reps and haven't experienced one single problem with them (except a "reset to zero" problem with a old 7750-chrono). All my ETA-based reps have been 100% perfect. My SMP has taken some serious abuse and runs and looks like a champ after 15 months. Some reps are solidly built and are easily comparable to $200 - $500 watches. You can't put them all into the same basket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 I've had a $80 Gruen... and it's definitely NOT the same quality as the best reps. Neither are Alphas and cheaper (21J-based) Invictas. I had a $120 Invicta (with supposed Miyota movement) and the winding crown popped out after 3 days. I've had plenty of reps and haven't experienced one single problem with them (except a "reset to zero" problem with a old 7750-chrono). All my ETA-based reps have been 100% perfect. My SMP has taken some serious abuse and runs and looks like a champ after 15 months. Some reps are solidly built and are easily comparable to $200 - $500 watches. You can't put them all into the same basket. Ditto ! I have owned over 90 reps... and less than 2% of them have had any problems.. including the lower level pieces that I have given to my teen age sons to beat up and play ball in.... even those are still running after years... I have never even had any of them serviced.. though I think I will, with my favorite top seven.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 Just you keep buying from Wal-Mart....and the Bay.....they need your custom.....and you'll always be happy......you won't have anything on your wrist that has any kind of cachet.....and nobody is gonna go wow......but you'll always be happy......! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy0007 Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 Hello all. You'll have to forgive the obvious "noob" question....but there is something I have to ask because it makes no sense to me. There is obviously a HUGE market for rep watches. Lots of dealers....lots of sites....LOTS of spam emails....there's money in it. What I can't understand is why I can go to Wal-Mart and pay 10 bucks for a watch that is (for example) guaranteed water resistant and actually is. Of course it's not a "fine timepiece"....but it looks good....the finish wears for about two years....and there is no disclaimer that you shouldn't wear it while even taking a shower. It's made in the same countries that the reps are. I just snagged 4 watches off the bay that are great daily beaters. 2 Gruen and 2 Benrus. I've had the brands before and they perform well. Water resistant as can be....keep great time....and have a nice finish to them. Got all 4 for $34 plus shipping. So if it's that easy to make something halfway decent....why do repeated problems happen with reps? It's not like the problems can't be fixed. When money is involved......anything is possible. I'm new to this and not sure how the whole acquisition process works for the dealers. What I'm not 'getting' is why a $200 rep has worse 'form and finish' than an 'off the shelf' other brand that costs less than 10% of the price. They're made in the same place...... Is it just that the emperor truly has no clothes......and only a select few make serious coin off that? The whole dynamic seems much more complicated than it needs to be. Maybe it's just me......LOL If you add to the other points raised above the fact that rep manufacturers tend to continually attempt to improve the quality and likeness to original of the products (incurring tooling costs) and production runs are small compared to most of the cheap and cheerful's things don't seem too bad. As to water resistance- have you considered that waranty terms we almost take for granted on almost every product we can think of may not be offered by the manufacturers of reps? Dealers are more likely to suggest keeping it dry than have every second person asking for a new watch cos the caseback wasn't tight or someone left off a crown o'ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 (edited) Part of the benefit of buying a legal good is that you have companies at every level of the distribution chain that stand behind the product and warrant a certain level of quality for the price the end user pays. Buying from Wal-Mart and not Wo-Mart also gives you a certain amount of assurance that the company has put time and money into sourcing and offering products that give you an objectively reasonable deal. A major reason why reps are cheap is that you are not paying for any of this. Also, this may be shocking but a lot of people selling stuff on the internet are unethical scammers looking to make a quick buck off ignorant or gullible people, and offering the best possible product is far from their highest priority! Crazy, I know! But I know it's true because I wired a guy in Nigeria $599.95 for his e-book on "Insider Secrets of Internet Commerce"! Nobody needs a replica Rolex. These dealers aren't selling spoiled baby formula, they are offering you a piece of a silly dream for a piece of the silly price. You have CHOSEN to buy something that looks like something you want but for whatever reason don't want to buy, for 1/20th of the actual price. Why would that not require any sacrifice whatsoever on your part? I'm not sure why this seems so hard to understand. Edited September 7, 2006 by kanerich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabom Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 Nobody needs a replica Rolex. These dealers aren't selling spoiled baby formula, they are offering you a piece of a silly dream for a piece of the silly price. You have CHOSEN to buy something that looks like something you want but for whatever reason don't want to buy, for 1/20th of the actual price. Why would that not require any sacrifice whatsoever on your part? I'm not sure why this seems so hard to understand. I think people have forgotten that these are, at the end of the day, fake watches (or replicas for our euphemistic sensibilities). High-end watches are not all about screwing the end customer. Many rep owners seem to by very cynical about the motivations of high-end companies. If you want consistent and perfect quality - you do have to pay the price. If you don't want to pay, you get a rep - but don't expect the consistent and perfect quality! People who can't distinguish this in their minds are clearly delusional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 Why do they keep making watches that are 90% reliable? Because we keep buying them. The QC here is applied to the fidelity of the appearance, not the reliability. Can they make a watch that is reliable and rugged? Yes and many of the simple reps based on basic designs will give you many years of service. But buy a chronograph with 2X the working parts of an ETA 2836 and you are buying repair costs as well. I figure my reps have all the parts necessary to make them decent watches but a trip to Ziggy and a $175 investment is part of the process of getting them there. I don't see why this is such a tough concept to get one's brain around. We are the consumer of an illegal product. Who are we going to complain to if the cut of our "peruvian flake" is not to our liking. The bottom line is that this forum gives you all the information you need to make an informed purchase and from whom to make it as well as giving you the tools necessary to fix any problems that might arise. As long as our primary standards are cosmetic in evaluating the quality of the watches we buy, the mechanicals will take a back seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 (edited) What I'm not 'getting' is why a $200 rep has worse 'form and finish' than an 'off the shelf' other brand that costs less than 10% of the price. They're made in the same place...... How can you make statements like this, without any first hand experience? Your making assumptions that's all, but more importantly, you dont' know what your talking about. Have you even held one of the watches sold by the dealers here? Obviouisly not, as if you did, you would not be making a statement like this one... What your saying is simply not true... stick to Wally Mart, and I will stick to the dealers here... Maybe it's just me......LOL Couldn't agree more with you on that point... RG Edited September 7, 2006 by ziggyzumba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cucumber_Jones Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 Hey Zig - thanks for saying exactly what I said this guy does not have a clue what he is talking about. Also Zig - nice to see you back - glad to see you had a good trip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 After reading that post, the word "clueless" just popped into my mind. Back to Walmart for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elwopo Posted September 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 OK.....let me try to clarify before this gets really silly. It's obvious that I did not do an effective job of expressing what I was thinking. The only issue I was having a problem with was trying to understand why....with all the interest and money involved....aren't subs guaranteed water resistant. Simply put.....why, if I spend $200 on something, should I have to be nervous if I want to jump off the boat to get cool or somebody pushes me in the pool? That's all. I only mentioned cheap a$$ brands because I've had them...still do...and not one has had a water issue. I mentioned "fit and finish" because I've just gotten my first rep and am a little disappointed. I covered that in a different thread and received some insightful responses which I appreciate. I've got two more reps on the way and have been reading ad nauseum everything I can find on the TT sub I truly want. It seems like a Holy Grail at this point. My intent was to gain information....and maybe some venting came out in that.....but I certainly was not trying to insult anyone or cast aspersions. To those who have offered opinions based on their wisdom....I sincerely thank you. To those who simply want to bash because it makes them feel better at some level......knock yourself out.....but perhaps you could remember that we've all had a "first day" in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cucumber_Jones Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 Elwopo - I think the biggest thing you need to remember that these are ilegal items. Thus QC will not be quite what you expect. However, usualy with very little work you make make the watch water safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 Two tone Sub......Holy Grail......hmmmm......don't think there's too much in the way of inspiration for a Templar there.....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhinagoya Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 I don't believe your comparison is logical or realistic. I can buy a quartz watch at Wal Mart for $20. It will have a movement in it that costs less than $5 to manufacture. The case and strap will cost less than $1 to manufacture. If I buy an ETA sub from one of our dealers, it will have a solid 316 stainless case and bracelet, a sapphire crystal, and a 25 jewel Swiss movement. Go find a watch in a retail establishment that has the same 'attributes' as my ETA sub example, then compare the price of the retail to the rep. The difference in the two prices is called: "Fit, finish, water resistance, distribution, advertising, inventory taxation, sales tax, etc". If you make a 'level playing field' comparison, I believe you will discover (as most of us have) that the rep is a screaming bargain. You can buy the rep, then pay The Zigmeister to make it water tight and fix the fit and finish, and you will still have just a fraction of the cost of the original in your rep. As far as I know, the only marque that the quality/price ratio of the genuine even approaches the ratio of a rep is with Hamilton. Generally speaking, they are 'only' about twice the price of a compariable rep. The Hamiltons are nice watches though. I like my Khaki X-Wind. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 OK.....let me try to clarify before this gets really silly. It's obvious that I did not do an effective job of expressing what I was thinking. The only issue I was having a problem with was trying to understand why....with all the interest and money involved....aren't subs guaranteed water resistant. Simply put.....why, if I spend $200 on something, should I have to be nervous if I want to jump off the boat to get cool or somebody pushes me in the pool? That's all. I only mentioned cheap a$$ brands because I've had them...still do...and not one has had a water issue. I mentioned "fit and finish" because I've just gotten my first rep and am a little disappointed. I covered that in a different thread and received some insightful responses which I appreciate. I've got two more reps on the way and have been reading ad nauseum everything I can find on the TT sub I truly want. It seems like a Holy Grail at this point. My intent was to gain information....and maybe some venting came out in that.....but I certainly was not trying to insult anyone or cast aspersions. To those who have offered opinions based on their wisdom....I sincerely thank you. To those who simply want to bash because it makes them feel better at some level......knock yourself out.....but perhaps you could remember that we've all had a "first day" in this. I think you are giving the genuines too much credit here. No watch is waterproof. The only genuines that are truly water safe are those with a screw down crown and screw on caseback. Any other genuine with a water rating from 10 to 150 meters in depth have an interesting little disclaimer in all of the instruction inserts. Do not dive in them. This does not mean do not scuba dive, it means do not jump into a pool with them. Why? because the transient pressures a watch is subjected to when you plunge into the water are often far greater that those it would encounter static at depth pressure. There is also usually another interpretation of the depth ratings on watches, a guide to practical usage given the water resistance of the watch. Level one is casual water resistance, sweat, splashes. Level two is showering. Level three is swimming and snorkeling on the surface. Only a watch rated for 200m with a screw down crown is rated for depth and is level 4. I submit that dispite a lack of "guarantees" from the manufacturers, most of our reps are in the first three levels of resistance. With some tweeking, greasing and tightening, many here can attest to dive resistance. So what you are suggesting, that our replicas are not up to snuff when it comes to comparisons to the 30m water resistance of your Timex quartz, is just not true. You are assuming that a 30m Timex is a water resistant rock worthy of a manufacturers guarantee, and it is not. I have had 150m Seikos and Bulovas fog from playing in the surf or diving into a pool. As for taking reps into water, my thoughts on this are well known. I spend money on replicas because I have found a half dozen or so that look so close to the genuine that only an expert can tell the difference. I have no expectation of parallel performance. My reps are like beautiful classic cars, high and dry in the garage and rubbed with a soft cloth often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankt Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 Two tone Sub......Holy Grail......hmmmm......don't think there's too much in the way of inspiration for a Templar there.....! I was just about to post the same thing!!!....holy grail indeed!!....I converted my last "two tone sub" into a Snook lure!!....LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 Hello all. You'll have to forgive the obvious "noob" question....but there is something I have to ask because it makes no sense to me. There is obviously a HUGE market for rep watches. Lots of dealers....lots of sites....LOTS of spam emails....there's money in it. What I can't understand is why I can go to Wal-Mart and pay 10 bucks for a watch that is (for example) guaranteed water resistant and actually is. Of course it's not a "fine timepiece"....but it looks good....the finish wears for about two years....and there is no disclaimer that you shouldn't wear it while even taking a shower. It's made in the same countries that the reps are. I just snagged 4 watches off the bay that are great daily beaters. 2 Gruen and 2 Benrus. I've had the brands before and they perform well. Water resistant as can be....keep great time....and have a nice finish to them. Got all 4 for $34 plus shipping. So if it's that easy to make something halfway decent....why do repeated problems happen with reps? It's not like the problems can't be fixed. When money is involved......anything is possible. I'm new to this and not sure how the whole acquisition process works for the dealers. What I'm not 'getting' is why a $200 rep has worse 'form and finish' than an 'off the shelf' other brand that costs less than 10% of the price. They're made in the same place...... Is it just that the emperor truly has no clothes......and only a select few make serious coin off that? The whole dynamic seems much more complicated than it needs to be. Maybe it's just me......LOL I will harp on.. a few years back I bought a Tag kirum link from a local jewler... not real expensive, but not wal-mart priced either.. about $1500... had it a week and dropped it on a rugged serface... the date wheel stopped moving... ok, i dropped the watch, mea culpa.. but by comparsion, I have done far worse to my reps (clumsy dude) and experienced no problem at all. these watches run like... clocks!! i mean they are accurate resilient and oh btw, very stylish. Plus the dealers here are very up front with you, and give you great advise feedback on the strenghs and weaknesses of the pieces are. Really, this is a great place to fine a watch a stylish watch.. TTK mentioned cache.. i agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elwopo Posted September 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 Plus the dealers here are very up front with you, and give you great advise feedback on the strenghs and weaknesses of the pieces are. Really, this is a great place to fine a watch a stylish watch.. TTK mentioned cache.. i agree. Thanks for the input on the ruggedness of the reps. It's good to know that some things may not need to be worried about. As far as the dealers....I'd have to totally agree with you! I've dealt with two so far and received product from one. The service level from both of these dealers defies accurate description. Top notch all the way! I think it's these successful transactions that make it easier to continue shopping. The PayPal account is screwed........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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