Want to hear your opinions on purchasing first Gen.

[Submariner400]

Hello everyone, big time lurker, not a big poster.

Well i wanted to get the opinion of everyone here, seeing as we are all here for the same thing, love of watches. In a nut shell, since i was young i wanted a Rolex Submariner, my uncle had a two tone back in the day and i loved it. I currently own a WM9 V2 sub with custom parts from BK, and its a great watch, but as we all know, it just makes you want to get a Gen even more!

I have an opportunity to get a Sub for under 4k (16610 with date) with box and papers, great condition i think its a 2003. From searching around (correct me if im wrong) any 16610 with box and papers at or under 4k is pretty good. I was planning on waiting to get a Gen, im in the process of getting a new job which will involve more money then im currently making but will also involve a move that will cost money. My plan was to wait until i was "settled" at my new area and job, but after seeing this one pop up for a decent price, im considering it.

I know this is personal preference but i wanted to ask about re-sale and the "investment" side of purchasing a Rolex. Now i dont need to make money off the watch but lets say i buy it and found out that i have made a mistake, i feel like i could resell it for very close (if not a little more) then what i bought it for. Let me be clear, I would be buying the watch because i want it, and i would wear it daily, but i feel that these watches in a sense are a good investment. Im a young guy starting off on my first career, so this is a big purchase for me. Sometimes its hard for me to justify spending so much on a watch, but i love watches and always have, and this has been my dream watch.

Well any advice, clarifications, whatever, id appreciate it!

[kbh]

A used Sub is probably not going to lose much in value but it sounds like it shouldn't be your priority at the moment. You've got plenty of time to buy a watch in the future. Now you should be saving for more important things in life. A gen watch is a luxury, not a necessity.

You'll be ready for a gen when you don't have to ask this question. Be happy with the WM9 Sub. You won't be able to tell the difference anyway.

[Fer]

Life is short and death is certain.....go for it. Enjoy it every day and work hard to deserve it.

[Submariner400]

Thanks for the replies guys, keep them coming!

The problem im having now, is i almost dont even want to wear my rep because im getting obsessed with the small problems it has as a rep, now dont get me wrong, its one of if not the best rep for a Sub out there (also have a Gen crown on order for it) but i feel if i had a Gen, i would never take it off.

I did a few searches and it seems the time to pull the trigger is the time im at, i would not stop with Reps, but to have one Gen i feel like it would be "easier" to own other high end reps.

But like kbh said above, this is a very busy, hetick, time of my life - so part of me thinks i need to wait, but this one is at a good price. I will admit that i told myself if i got this job i would buy a Gen, this is the job i have wanted my whole life and worked my whole life for, so to me this would be a gift to myself and a gift of achievement.

[JoJo35]

Less than 4k for a full set? Buy it, you'll never loose money on it

[Submariner400]

Less than 4k for a full set? Buy it, you'll never loose money on it

Thats why im tempted too, i really cant see how i would loose money on it..

[Greystash]

Thats why im tempted too, i really cant see how i would loose money on it..

Hey Submariner400, I purchased a Gen Sub (date) under very similar circumstances as you. One came up at a good price, with full box and papers and I had to make a decision. I went ahead and got my Sub and here is what I learned.

I learned that the longer you wait, the more your Sub is going to cost. I spent $3100us two years ago. If I tried to buy a full set now at that price, I probably would not be able to find one.

I also learned that because Rolex puts their prices up every year. So I'm actually making money with my Sub. And that is a good feeling.

Having the Sub gives me a good sense of security in terms of cash in some kind of dire emergency. I know at any tick of the clock I could go on eBay and sell this watch for more than what I paid for it.

Now a negative. If that Sub is a 2003, by now it should have the oil refreshed in the works. So if your buy this Sub, at some stage in the future you really should get it serviced. If you have it done by Rolex it will be a significant expense. You could however have it done by a competent watch maker and save a lot of money. Then again, having the service done by Rolex can, to a small degree, enhances its resale value. Now having said this, the Sub I bought had never been serviced. When I took it to Rolex it was the first service it had had in 12 years and it was fine actually.

And all things considered, mechanical watches need to be serviced; that's just part of owning one.

I love wearing my Sub. Where I come from (small city) nobody really notices it for what it is, but I know what it is. The Rolex Sub is really a genesis design and you can see the influence it has had on many different sports watches. From the hands to the dial markers to the bezel, you can see the spirit of a submariner almost anywhere you care to start looking at what other people are wearing on their wrists.

The very few times I

[kbh]

No offense, but you guys all sound like the same people that were buying houses in the last 3 or 4 years cause the prices were going up. Now most of them are in foreclosure. Sometimes memories are soooooo short.

Don't listen to me but I'm telling you, Take care of your necessities first and them worry about your bling.

[Submariner400]

Hey Submariner400, I purchased a Gen Sub (date) under very similar circumstances as you. One came up at a good price, with full box and papers and I had to make a decision. I went ahead and got my Sub and here is what I learned.

I learned that the longer you wait, the more your Sub is going to cost. I spent $3100us two years ago. If I tried to buy a full set now at that price, I probably would not be able to find one.

I also learned that because Rolex puts their prices up every year. So I'm actually making money with my Sub. And that is a good feeling.

Having the Sub gives me a good sense of security in terms of cash in some kind of dire emergency. I know at any tick of the clock I could go on eBay and sell this watch for more than what I paid for it.

Now a negative. If that Sub is a 2003, by now it should have the oil refreshed in the works. So if your buy this Sub, at some stage in the future you really should get it serviced. If you have it done by Rolex it will be a significant expense. You could however have it done by a competent watch maker and save a lot of money. Then again, having the service done by Rolex can, to a small degree, enhances its resale value. Now having said this, the Sub I bought had never been serviced. When I took it to Rolex it was the first service it had had in 12 years and it was fine actually.

And all things considered, mechanical watches need to be serviced; that's just part of owning one.

I love wearing my Sub. Where I come from (small city) nobody really notices it for what it is, but I know what it is. The Rolex Sub is really a genesis design and you can see the influence it has had on many different sports watches. From the hands to the dial markers to the bezel, you can see the spirit of a submariner almost anywhere you care to start looking at what other people are wearing on their wrists.

The very few times I

[stilty]

Nice Huskie!

[Star69]

i whould reccomend a watch without Box and papers -

they start at around 2500 Euro here -

a Sub 16610 is not a good investment - you can alsways sell is easy - but it will not raise in the price

like some vintage pieces

before you get the older Sub - check the subtile differences like SEL and lume

if i whould wear the watch every day i whould def. get SELs and SL ....

so go for it - but take your time.

you can sell the WMV2 also for a good price here .

cheers,

Frank

[By-Tor]

I love Sub and I love gens... and I fully understand the "little things" that make the gen stand out from reps. But WM9 v2 (with v1 SELs) is so good that I simply can't justify the gen.

But then again Sub is not my "grail watch". Just a legendary model that I like very much.

But if you really, really love the Sub I say go for it. Any working adult can afford to invest a few K's to something that they're passionate about. It's not like you're buying a house or anything, just a steel sports Rolex.

[HauteHippie]

If this is *the* watch for you, and you're sure you can afford it (kbh's words not to be taken lightly), then absolutely go for it. You don't sound too sure, so it may be wise to enjoy the WM9 a while longer until things settle down in your personal life. Anyhow a 2003, I believe, will have lug holes with SELs. These models should always be a couple to a few hundred less than the 2004+ non lug hole models. So the full package should definitely be under $4k. I'd consider $3500 a good deal but not a stunning deal. If you're patient, you can and will find one for slightly less in good shape. Expect to lose a little on resale down the road even so. But you're not ever going to lose much if you keep it in good shape. Some day, I'm sure subs from this era will drop below the $3k mark but that will take a while and you'll have enjoyed it a lot by then if you do decide to sell. Never look at it as an investment, though. It's a luxury item, and nothing more.

Let us know what you decide to do, and of course post pics if and when it arrives.

[Greystash]

Obviously I'm passionate about the Rolex Submariner, but I do acknowledge the points about finacial priority and I think they are well made. And while we are on that note I would also affirm there is always another Sub coming along.

However if you were going to make a decision about those two Subs I would say the biggest issue would be about the lume. The older one will be tritium and while with effort, it still could be read at o'Dark-thirty, it's not a practical lume anymore.

Do you want the charming lug holes and very weak lume of the older Sub? Or would you be happier with the superlume on the 2003?

Also the Rolex Service Centre will want to swap out the Dial, Bezel Insert and hands when you service the older one. I had to sit down with the Sydney Rolex Guy and explain to him how I did not want them to ruin my all original tritium Sub byy making it into something that it isn't with a new dial etc. To their credit they did understand.

Would I swap my 1995 'W' Serial Sub for one from 2003 with superlume? Well I might, but I do like the lug holes (as do many) and would have to think about it.

[By-Tor]

Or buy one with SELs, superlume and lugholes.

My 2003 K-series GMT is exactly like that. Best of both worlds. They produced Sub with this same combo as well.

[highoeyazmuhudee]

I dont see the point of buying a gen anymore after visiting the AD and learning the new list prices for the 16610.. ARE THEY OUT OF THEIR F'ING MINDS! I still cant get over it, ALMOST $7K for a watch with $500 worth of materials in it. then you go outside and look at your super rep as you put it back on your wrist and you cant help but laugh all the way home. there is NO DIFFERENCE ANYMORE! the watch feels the same, i've studied it carefully. by raising the prices of their watches every year Rolex stands to alienate their customer base and make their watches out of reach of the casual collector. Rolex will push their prices until they start to loose money. remember, you're NOT buying a $7,000 watch, you're buying a membership to an exclusive club, and I think the WM9 v3 MORE than gets you there, part for part the only thing the Rolex does better is the finishing, but thats not worth $6500 more and you can polish your own bracelet. the new ceramic black SS sub will cost about $9,000 in Sept my AD says as they mark up the 16610 because it's "discontinued"(a$$holes) and collectible now (what ever that means). when you visit the AD the price of BKs V3 isnt too shabby at all, in fact it's a steal! only thing it needs is a gen insert

[Submariner400]

Thanks again for the replies, good points about the older one compared to the 2003. My V2 now i feel like i can never see unless its been "charged" in the sun, i own a Lumni Nox watch that i wear a lot too and with those gas tubes i feel like nothing can beat it.

As far as the investment side, maybe i shouldnt have used those words, i guess i like the idea of having something that i can use and in the long if i HAD to, would still sell reasonably well. Im def. not looking to make money off of it. As far as the rep side, i do agree that they are so similar now that it does make it hard to purchase the Gen, but i can say that since i do want the Gen Sub, there is no doubt in my mind on that. My V2 has a custom crown and looks really really good, but like i said its hitting the point now where i almost dont want to wear it because i want more from it, every detail perfect.

When i first got the V2 i looked at it like an experience that would be pretty much exact to having the Gen, i wore it on the boat, in saltwater, cutting the lawn, whatever - i actually used the watch, i didnt baby it and i loved it. But little by little (because i really do have a thing for the Sub) the little flaws (which are very little) kept popping out to me. I def. used the V2 to find out if i wanted the Gen and in my head i do, but like any human being, this is a big expensive purchase, so thats why i posted here.

I have sent emails to the sellers and im waiting to hear back, the 92 is really in good shape and the price would justify it but those little things like the superlume are a big deal to me so i will have to see. In my eyes i would not really make money off the watch down the road (and i wouldnt be buying it to sell it) but its good to know like i said that it wont really loose to much in resale.

Hope i dont stir up the whole investment thing but they seem to hold their value.

[Star69]

++ SEL and lugholes - sexy combination

cheers,

Frank

[Greystash]

My bad, just going from memory I thought they lost the lug holes just after 2000. Happy to be wrong about that.

On a different note though, I don't really agree with the comments on the resale value down the track. While these Subs are not rare, at the rate Rolex prices move they are not going to be investment flops either. I don't see my Sub racking in money, but I am seeing it's secondhand resale figure steadily rising to reflect the new prices.

In 1980 the new price for a 16610 was about $1000, $2500 in 1990, over 3000 by the mid 90's, $4500 by 2005 and $6000 in 2008.

One could argue that the new bigger Sub might kill the old sub market. But since the old Sub is such a global classic, the opposite might be true.

[TeeJay]

I dont see the point of buying a gen anymore after visiting the AD and learning the new list prices for the 16610.. ARE THEY OUT OF THEIR F'ING MINDS! I still cant get over it, ALMOST $7K for a watch with $500 worth of materials in it. then you go outside and look at your super rep as you put it back on your wrist and you cant help but laugh all the way home. there is NO DIFFERENCE ANYMORE! the watch feels the same, i've studied it carefully. by raising the prices of their watches every year Rolex stands to alienate their customer base and make their watches out of reach of the casual collector. Rolex will push their prices until they start to loose money. remember, you're NOT buying a $7,000 watch, you're buying a membership to an exclusive club, and I think the WM9 v3 MORE than gets you there, part for part the only thing the Rolex does better is the finishing, but thats not worth $6500 more and you can polish your own bracelet. the new ceramic black SS sub will cost about $9,000 in Sept my AD says as they mark up the 16610 because it's "discontinued"(a$$holes) and collectible now (what ever that means). when you visit the AD the price of BKs V3 isnt too shabby at all, in fact it's a steal! only thing it needs is a gen insert

+1

My concern is that if you get a gen, you will wind up with buyer's remorse when comparing it to your BK Sub. I totally get your point that you're buying it as a daily watch, not an investment, but, should you need to sell it in the future, hey, nothing wrong with getting a reasonble price for it, that's just good sense As KBH mentioned, way more important things to be buying/saving for than an overpriced sports watch, when you already own the next best thing already. While I totally get that you're noticing the flaws in the rep, I think you'll find the gen boring in its perfection, and gradually get that sickening feeling of being rolled for several thousand...

After quite a while with this watch off my wrist thanks to a dead movement, I just received a new movement to put into this self-built Tudor 79190 Submariner, and I can quite easily say that it won't be coming off my wrist:

Here's the gen 79190 for comparison... Look how easy that cyclops makes reading the date

Even if I had the cash to buy the gen counterpart, I would not, simply because this watch has personal history and sentimental value (I wore the bracelet and case in a GMT configuration on my honeymoon in Tokyo, the dial was a gift from a friend, the new movement was a gift from another friend and the crystal was from the very first project watch I built) An identical purchased gen would not have any of those things... It might well be 'gen', but in my eyes, it would always be 'less of a watch', and without personal connection. Is the watch perfect? Well, obviously, the insert needs replacing, and the case should have lug holes, I removed the cyclops myself, as I don't like them, but those things don't bother me as it's my watch...

At the end of the day, it's your call, I just wouldn't want you to drop the cash, only to wind up with buyer's remorse...

[mjmj]

I purchased a Gen A series Sub early last year for $2750 with box and papers. I was very content with the watch but then the itch came again and I started looking at other models of rolexes and purchased an F series turnograph. So I decided that the sub had to go and with good quality Sub reps easily available, I thought that I would buy a rep if I missed the watch. So I purchased a V3 from BK in Jan 2010 and I must say that I can hardly tell the difference. I ve put the watch on a 93150 bracelet and it looks exactly like the ex A series minus the lug holes. I have not looked back and am happy that the V3 has filled my modern Sub void. What I am trying to say that for me personally, if the watch looks 99% like the real thing, then there is no need to spend 5-10 times more on a gen. I guess its a personal thing I am quite satisfied wearing a rep that looks great, because the person who really cares is me and no one else really notices or cares about whats on your wrist.

[aeromatic]

I dont see the point of buying a gen anymore after visiting the AD and learning the new list prices for the 16610.. ARE THEY OUT OF THEIR F'ING MINDS! I still cant get over it, ALMOST $7K for a watch with $500 worth of materials in it. then you go outside and look at your super rep as you put it back on your wrist and you cant help but laugh all the way home. there is NO DIFFERENCE ANYMORE! the watch feels the same, i've studied it carefully. by raising the prices of their watches every year Rolex stands to alienate their customer base and make their watches out of reach of the casual collector. Rolex will push their prices until they start to loose money. remember, you're NOT buying a $7,000 watch, you're buying a membership to an exclusive club, and I think the WM9 v3 MORE than gets you there, part for part the only thing the Rolex does better is the finishing, but thats not worth $6500 more and you can polish your own bracelet. the new ceramic black SS sub will cost about $9,000 in Sept my AD says as they mark up the 16610 because it's "discontinued"(a$$holes) and collectible now (what ever that means). when you visit the AD the price of BKs V3 isnt too shabby at all, in fact it's a steal! only thing it needs is a gen insert

Ditto! i couldent have put it better myself! rolex reminds me of a james bond film! no not goldfinger, but the "world is not enough" its just a watch! they do not only want the world they want the universe too! i love rolex watches but crazy prices are not justified these new offerings with bk parts are superb, you dont need a gen! and rolex is not content with taking you for a ride on the purchase alone but on there aftersales service too! rolexes are no longer a "watchmaker" just mass production watches riding on the past reputation! sorry no offence intended here! while i can justify a vintage sub like say a 5512 selling between 2,000 and upto 3,500usd but no more than that, but modern rolexes just not worth those prices!

[aeromatic]

I purchased a Gen A series Sub early last year for $2750 with box and papers. I was very content with the watch but then the itch came again and I started looking at other models of rolexes and purchased an F series turnograph. So I decided that the sub had to go and with good quality Sub reps easily available, I thought that I would buy a rep if I missed the watch. So I purchased a V3 from BK in Jan 2010 and I must say that I can hardly tell the difference. I ve put the watch on a 93150 bracelet and it looks exactly like the ex A series minus the lug holes. I have not looked back and am happy that the V3 has filled my modern Sub void. What I am trying to say that for me personally, if the watch looks 99% like the real thing, then there is no need to spend 5-10 times more on a gen. I guess its a personal thing I am quite satisfied wearing a rep that looks great, because the person who really cares is me and no one else really notices or cares about whats on your wrist.

well said!

[TeeJay]

Ditto! i couldent have put it better myself! rolex reminds me of a james bond film! no not goldfinger, but the "world is not enough" its just a watch! they do not only want the world they want the universe too! i love rolex watches but crazy prices are not justified these new offerings with bk parts are superb, you dont need a gen! and rolex is not content with taking you for a ride on the purchase alone but on there aftersales service too! rolexes are no longer a "watchmaker" just mass production watches riding on the past reputation! sorry no offence intended here! while i can justify a vintage sub like say a 5512 selling between 2,000 and upto 3,500usd but no more than that, but modern rolexes just not worth those prices!

+1

Absolutely spot on, bro

[aeromatic]

+1

Absolutely spot on, bro

Thanks teejay i was expecting your response here! and besides its true we may get bored quickly with a gen and regret all that money gone on a watch!

our hobbie and fun is from getting our reps looking like the gen, and appriecating all our efforts, when you got a gen where do you go from there?

of cause this does not apply to vintage subs! its like a house its one thing buying a house and moving in and another if you built it all my yourself! this adds sentimental value to it!