dabom Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 I've seen some posts lately about people spending close to or over $1000 on a replica. How much is too much? For me about $500 is the limit including servicing and luming. After that one is getting too close to resale prices of genuines. Sure you may think that $900 is still cheaper than $3000, but honestly I would prefer to pay $3000. The person who spends $900 does so because he desperately wants to get his rep as close as possible to the gen, but after spending that much - it really is still a rep even with genuine crown/dial/date-wheel. It's never going to last several lifetimes, it's never going to be worthy to pass as an heirloom and you're never going to have the kind of perfection that comes from a genuine. And one is not always going to be able to service it easily. That's just my opinion because I use my reps as beaters not as part of my main collection. If I love a watch's design, then nothing short of the real thing is going to do. I buy a rep precisely because I have no interest in buying the gen, or because I am trying it out. For someone who spends close to $1000 or more on a rep - obviously the watch is meaningful enough to the person. So if so - why not get a resale gen and have a perfect watch and a perfect ownership experience? For you - how much is too much to spend on a rep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 To each his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linder Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 I must confess.. this is driving me insane.. I'm hoping this thread takes off into a huge discussion as this delihma haunts me almost daily.. I have what most would consider to be a very high income but at the same time, I have very high bills. In the end, there is not a lot of money to go around. While my wants and desires match my income, saving for an expensive watch at this point sounds silly when we have so many bills that need to be paid. From time to time, I can sneak off a few dollars here or there and put towards my rep hobby.. but I want the gens! So I mod my reps.. I figure I will have close to $1000 in my 16610LV by the time I finally finish it. I love the green bezel sub.. but how could I afford it? Then other days, I could sell everything and buy a genuine moonwatch.. but would that make me happy? I don't know! I am going crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighDef Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 For me if it is a blue blooded rep (100% rep) don't care if it is moded or not, anything above $300 is too much but I will not hesitate to pay a lot more for a franken with gen parts if I like it. I am cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epanoui Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 I've seen some posts lately about people spending close to or over $1000 on a replica. How much is too much? For me about $500 is the limit including servicing and luming. After that one is getting too close to resale prices of genuines. Sure you may think that $900 is still cheaper than $3000, but honestly I would prefer to pay $3000. The person who spends $900 does so because he desperately wants to get his rep as close as possible to the gen, but after spending that much - it really is still a rep even with genuine crown/dial/date-wheel. It's never going to last several lifetimes, it's never going to be worthy to pass as an heirloom and you're never going to have the kind of perfection that comes from a genuine. And one is not always going to be able to service it easily. That's just my opinion because I use my reps as beaters not as part of my main collection. If I love a watch's design, then nothing short of the real thing is going to do. I buy a rep precisely because I have no interest in buying the gen, or because I am trying it out. For someone who spends close to $1000 or more on a rep - obviously the watch is meaningful enough to the person. So if so - why not get a resale gen and have a perfect watch and a perfect ownership experience? For you - how much is too much to spend on a rep? You are assuming we are talking about #3000 watches though. For me, the watches I want are well above $10k, and I won't be able to buy a watch that expensive any time soon, let alone 5 of them. So for me, if I spent $900 (i never have) on a rep, that's still less than on tenth the gen price, sooo.... But yes I agree, no matter what you do it will still be a rep, and no matter what I would still always want the gen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estaban Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 $300 is my max as well. I can't see spending more than that unless it has a gen movement (2893 or Valjoux 7750). What I find totally insane is spending $300 to mod a $200 rep watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baltic Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Then other days, I could sell everything and buy a genuine moonwatch.. but would that make me happy? I don't know! I'm currently rationalising my collection - 10 down to 6 at the moment, maybe one more to go. The remaining have/will been modded (PAMs lume and pin fix, Omega gen parts). I'm freeing up money to spend on a gen and the moonwatch is one I'm seriously considering... I think £250-300 max on a rep if you have it modded and serviced and if it's a reliable movement then you've still got a good watch that costs £300 but looks like a £3000 one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitmic Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 I would say not more than $400. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 I long since came to grips with this by establishing a personal "rep/gen ratio". Since reps like watches come in different levels of quality I vary it. For instance on original movement reps such as PAM 2893 PR and GMT or 7753 Daylight I am willing to go as high as 15% if I can get it to 95%. That percentage includes mods. So if the 2893's and 7753's regularly go at about $6,000 for gen I am theoretically willing to go up to about $900 including service/proper sealing, relume, Jimmy crown guard, new datewheel, Watchman cyclops (when appropriate), and Palp/Lello/Homer crown. In truth it is only the Power Reserve and 7753 Daylight where you can end up near that number. On the non-original movement but still high quality reps I max out around $350 and generally the ratio falls to 10% or less (other than cool reps like MBW's and or DW Daytona which can go as high as $500-600 including gen part mods). Finally, on the lower end no more than $120 and no mods. Then again don't listen to me as I have way too much money into this "hobby". And the new trend in better VC's, AP's and IWC's isn't helping either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeroy697 Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 (edited) Id say its up to you. If it makes you happy to spend $900 on a rep then go ahead. In the end its your money and you can spend it however you want. Plus I would not be worring about what we think Id ask your wife!!!! Edited October 6, 2006 by Leeroy697 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 It's a personal choice. Even though I can do all of the upgrades, the only things I tend to do is lume and service...and maybe a insert on a Rollie sub... If it's going to be a "keeper" then in my mind it's to each his own. I have one of the new Omega Chrono's on the way, I love the look, and have been seriously considering installing a ETA 7750 in it...I see them on the Ebay for $240 for a new 7750, hard to resist having a 99% rep for $500...vs $5000... It's like people who customize their car's, some spend thousands of $$$, others don't even wash or clean the car out... There is no right or wrong answer, everyone has to decide what is acceptable. One important point (at least I think it is) is that everyone should know what the normal "costs" are for standard watch services, and what is included...it's too easy to get taken in with extra costs that are inflated and wrong... Now if you will excuse me, my garage just called, I have to take my car in and get the summer air in my tires replaced with winter air, thankfully my garage is only charging me $20 per tire, what a deal...I am sure glad they called me and let me know about this service, they are looking out for my best interests as I know nothing about cars... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 i have about 450 in my pam 47 i'll have close to 600 in my 177h but most of the rest are just retail rep prices The answer to the question is - What is too much to spend on a rep? - IF your wife see's your watch budget and decides to leave you - youve spent to much !!! if your eating mcdonalds for lunch to save for a rep - your spending to much if your putting off that MRI you need to fund reps - your spending to much if your kids are wearing old clothes - your not spending too much - if your kids have no clothes - your spending to much I have lost over 600 in this hobby so far - probably a little more - in watches that didn't live up to advertisment or services that didn't. i'd say i got about 3000+ in my collection of 10 watches -so i average about 300/watch I will spend a few bucks to mod a watch if i think its a perminant keeper in the collection. I'm getting away from servicing watches unless there is something very special - first, i wear a different watch each day so if it gets 48 hrs of usage in 2 weeks its doing well. second, if spent 300 on the watch and service is 150, well, [censored], i'm going to ding it up - its like insurance, the insurance is to high, better off holding the risk yourself and buying a new one if it breaks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 So for several of you guys, how much is too much to spend on supporting RWG? (Some people have high incomes, others are cheap. I'm a bastard, and I admit it.....) Also, it looks like I've killed this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 I've got $3k into my El Primero Daytona... And I'd gladly do it again. I don't mind spending what I do on watches, and I don't spend what I do because I'm desperate to have something that's only pretending to be something else. I do what I do because it's fun. It's fun to build. It's fun to see how close to gen I can get. Not because I'm trying to fool someone into thinking my rep is a gen... But because it's a hobby, and buying genuine is frankly quite boring to me. The last gen I bought was my vintage Seamaster 300, and it just sits in my watch box, as there's nothing to do to it. I bought it, brought it home, took some pictures of it, and put it away. Don't get me wrong... I appreciate gens, and there are some I'd still like to purchase, but they're just not as interesting to me as reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Gens are a whole different animal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 It's a personal choice. Even though I can do all of the upgrades, the only things I tend to do is lume and service...and maybe a insert on a Rollie sub... If it's going to be a "keeper" then in my mind it's to each his own. I have one of the new Omega Chrono's on the way, I love the look, and have been seriously considering installing a ETA 7750 in it...I see them on the Ebay for $240 for a new 7750, hard to resist having a 99% rep for $500...vs $5000... It's like people who customize their car's, some spend thousands of $$$, others don't even wash or clean the car out... There is no right or wrong answer, everyone has to decide what is acceptable. One important point (at least I think it is) is that everyone should know what the normal "costs" are for standard watch services, and what is included...it's too easy to get taken in with extra costs that are inflated and wrong... Now if you will excuse me, my garage just called, I have to take my car in and get the summer air in my tires replaced with winter air, thankfully my garage is only charging me $20 per tire, what a deal...I am sure glad they called me and let me know about this service, they are looking out for my best interests as I know nothing about cars... RG what the hell is winter air? it doesn't compact as much in the cold? in florida we just have summer - and then something slightly less than summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 what the hell is winter air? it doesn't compact as much in the cold? in florida we just have summer - and then something slightly less than summer. Finally someone caught on... It's a scam, there is no such thing, but if you didnt' know the difference, you would probably think that $20 a tire is a good price... Here we have winter, then it's nice for a day, and then it's winter again... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omni Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Here on the equator in the middle of the Pacific, its just summer, period. Winter air - that's a slap on the knee funny scam I've never heard of before! To those who actually state their personal limit on a rep., trust me, you will always eat your own words eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indyclmbr Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 To each his/her own, but that's a pretty vague answer to the question. Personally, the top limit for me is $450 and I have two in that range, both eta 2893 movements, one an Exp II and one a Pam 063. I've spent more on the 063 to get an updated crown, a cyclops and I'm on the list (I think) for the datewheel when those come out and I'll gladly pay extra for that. However, I too have had the same thoughts. I have bought and sold several other reps. In the process, I've spent enough to buy two or three nice gens. The problem is, the gens I could have bought for the money I have spent on reps are not the gen watches I would most want. For me, spending upwards of $500 or more for a modded 063 is worth it since I wouldn't spend the several thousand that watch commands for a used gen. I could sell three or four of my reps and pick up a gen Tag GMT, which I think is a stellar looking watch. I also think it is terribly overpriced at $1600 for what you get using basically the same movement. Plus, I'd be giving up a few watches to buy one. The way I've rationalized it is this. If you look at genuine eta 2893 based GMT watches, the cost is going to be around $1000 on the low end and much more on the high end. For approx. $400-$500 dollars I can have a similar eta 2893 gmt watch with, in my opinion, better styling than a Glycine. For someone looking at one of the 7750 chronos with a swiss movement, I can see $600 not being out of the question, but that comes back to each his or her own. Personally, I think it has more to do with individual style preference and cost/benefit than gen vs. rep. Yeah, I could buy a gen, but am I willing to spend the amount of money the genuine watch I would really want goes for? As evidenced by my collection of reps, the answer is no. I love the Exp II, but the new prices are listed at $5000. I have a very nice facsimile at $425 with a solid movement that keeps great time. I could have a Tag and an Omega, or I could have one Explorer II, but this way I can have an Exp II, a Pam 063, 192, a GMT II, Sub and a Tag Link for less than I would have spent on one gen. Just my thoughts. Climb on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 To each his/her own, but that's a pretty vague answer to the question. Personally, the top limit for me is $450 and I have two in that range, both eta 2893 movements, one an Exp II and one a Pam 063. I've spent more on the 063 to get an updated crown, a cyclops and I'm on the list (I think) for the datewheel when those come out and I'll gladly pay extra for that. However, I too have had the same thoughts. I have bought and sold several other reps. In the process, I've spent enough to buy two or three nice gens. The problem is, the gens I could have bought for the money I have spent on reps are not the gen watches I would most want. For me, spending upwards of $500 or more for a modded 063 is worth it since I wouldn't spend the several thousand that watch commands for a used gen. I could sell three or four of my reps and pick up a gen Tag GMT, which I think is a stellar looking watch. I also think it is terribly overpriced at $1600 for what you get using basically the same movement. Plus, I'd be giving up a few watches to buy one. The way I've rationalized it is this. If you look at genuine eta 2893 based GMT watches, the cost is going to be around $1000 on the low end and much more on the high end. For approx. $400-$500 dollars I can have a similar eta 2893 gmt watch with, in my opinion, better styling than a Glycine. For someone looking at one of the 7750 chronos with a swiss movement, I can see $600 not being out of the question, but that comes back to each his or her own. Personally, I think it has more to do with individual style preference and cost/benefit than gen vs. rep. Yeah, I could buy a gen, but am I willing to spend the amount of money the genuine watch I would really want goes for? As evidenced by my collection of reps, the answer is no. I love the Exp II, but the new prices are listed at $5000. I have a very nice facsimile at $425 with a solid movement that keeps great time. I could have a Tag and an Omega, or I could have one Explorer II, but this way I can have an Exp II, a Pam 063, 192, a GMT II, Sub and a Tag Link for less than I would have spent on one gen. Just my thoughts. Climb on. I am closest to the perspective you represent here. My most expensive rep is a PAM 029 2893 from EL, and like your 063 it went for 425 or 450 i cannot remember which (BTW the 063 was my first choice but i just missed the boat..don't leave it unattended around me!!) Seems like a lot of money until you realize that pre-owned 063's and 029 go for upwards of $6K. I would and am seriously considering datewheel, cyclopse, and crown mods.. i realize those will cost some bucks but it gets me very close to the gen which i really love. But it really has to be something special to go that far. I have a relatively high income as well, but I have other interests and priorities and frankly bills, and I need to maintain some kind of balance against those. (I can easily get carried away) Besides, my G/F totally doesn't get this although she is very patient with my indulgences. I guess if i was as skilled as Ubi or others here, I would probably feel differently. I can definetly see where you can get off totally crafting a franken watch project. That would be an expensive but fullfilling hobby.. It would be killer to be able to do that The only thing I will add, is as you know, it is not always strictly a case of choosing reps or gens.. you can have both .. still, the basic value proposition for having reps remains being able to have and wear a variety of high quality watches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabom Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 first - I think The Zigmeister you are an exception, since you can easily mod/service your watches with no cost to yourself. second - those who like to mod as a hobby - you guys don't count either, since it's the MODDING that you find more interesting than the ownership experience. third - let's talk about resale prices. Many people in this hobby justify it by comparing with RRSP prices - and of course if you look at it that way you're getting a bargain in a rep. But have you guys checked out the resale marker (eg. on ebay?). Many fantastic gens can be had for 50-70% off. When you consider that - suddenly spending heaps on mods doesn't become so attractive. Now mind you, I love my Panerai rep because I haven't felt the unbearable urge to buy a gen, and the Swiss movement Panerais are good enough for me (since the Panerai is a simple watch, and you can't really go wrong). I back my Panerai feelings by not spending heaps on them (just lume + service). Obviously if I love the watch so much that I start spending hundreds on mods, maybe I love the brand and actually WANT the genuine thing. And if so, why not just spring for a resale one instead of spending heaps on a rep? Just my thought, but it's interesting to hear everyone's perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 I think it's pointless to put a fixed dollar amount on rep expeniture unless there's a fixed dollar amount you can afford to spend period. I usually compare the cost of a rep to the cheapest price I can get a used gen in good condition. Let's say a decorated swiss 2892 FM Conquistador w/ OEM crown, dial, and strap;relumed hands; and a professional polish is up for sale at $750. You'd be a fool to pass up that watch just because your arbitrary rep value cieling is $600. That $700 is indistinguishable in form AND funtion with a watch that sells for at least $5500 used. I understand the "rep-will-always-be-a-rep" truism that gets slinged around here (but the line is becoming increasingly blurred and that saying increasingly not-always-true). Even so, for super accurate, same movement as gen watches I love, I'd even go 35% of the cost of a used gen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 I agree that reps may never be heirlooms, but then again how much of your collection has to fit that category ? Even still, speaking on passing watches to our sons,..I have four, and have tested them with watches they assumed were genuine, and was shocked as they threw them around, played ball with them on, left them in gym lockers or on dusty tables surrounded by other guys they barely knew... After,..when I let them know they were replicas.. they just shrugged and laughed, but I let them know that watches were not in their future at least not from me... Though I don't think many in their generation care about timepieces the way I do... Back to the rep price issue, for me $600 is tops,... I think though that I will start searching for smartly priced gens with original style and real history, if such a thing exists.... and see where that takes me....if not far, then I can always come back to replicas.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Like most people, $200-300 is what I'd like to spend out of the box for a high-quality rep that I'm happy with. I might get some mods done should I want particular favorites closer to gen, but in general with all the good reps out there lately, the enjoyment per dollar isn't there for me once the price tag spirals upwards of $300. I've put $500+ into a several of my reps but I wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDad22 Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 This is a great thread.. so here is my story and perception.. As a kid my father was into pens and my grandfather was into stamps. Both in a big way and a collection by anyone's standards. Now me as a young man I was fascinated with swiss time pieces. At 20 I had a decent job and bought my first high end watch ( Tag Heuer ) for about $1100. As my career progressed I bought all my close relatives Tag watches. A few laters when I sold my first business I went out and bought a solid gold Tag 6000. In my late twenties I bought I couple of Omega's. I had kind of lost my fascination with watches, although I had always kept up with the latest Cartier, Rolex, and Breitling models. Two years ago my father came over to my house and was sporting a new Submariner. Of course I noticed it about 5 minutes after he came in. I said nice watch and he took if off for me to admire / inspect. At that time I was clearly ignorant to CG's, Pearls, Rehaut depth, Date mag etc.. My parents are not weathtly, but he certainly could afford a Rollie if he chose to do so. My dad told after I inspected it that it was a fake. In fact a fake he spent $750 on via COD with idealwatches.. I was flabergasted on two counts. One that the watch was fake as it was beautiful and had a gem like quality and two that he had spent so much on a watch he could have bought used for ~ $2k. Well I've been fortunate over the past decade to have a successful career. Now I'm no jetmid by any means, nor am I independently weathly, but my income is very considerable. No one that knows me would ever question the authenticity of a watch I was wearing ( of course when you wear a 5k to 25k different watch every day for a couple of weeks people wonder a little about your sanity ). I'm not intending to brag here by any means. Since then I bought at least 20 watches. I've sold a couple of really great ones to friends. I've recently been modding some on my own. The only expensive reps I had until recently was my original yachtmaster from Ideal ( it was quite expesive ). Of course I found RWG about 24 hours after receipt of that watch. I have sent one Sub LV off to RBJ last year and he did a very good job on it and in teh end I had $540 in that rep. Over the past couple of months I've been picking up vintage MBW's and been buying OEM parts. I'm pretty sure both of those will have ~$700-$800 in them when I'm done. I have spent about 10 hours a week on RWG1, RWG2, TRC, RWI browsing since the beginning. I have loved reading and interacting with members here and elsewhere. My wife of course thinks I have and OCD problem and maybe I do. That same OCD has allowed me to provide very well for my family and me. I've spent a large amount of reps. I've bought plenty of shitty ones just to get a feel before I ordered a better version from EL, Joshua, PT, or WM and in a couple of cases I would out and acquire the genuine. Now the real question is what are the residual value of a rep. My personal belief is the money is gone as they are worthless day one in terms of resale value, however many of them are great timepieces and should last a VERY VERY long time. As for resale value I think for most watches it's [censored]. If you do a simple time value of money or net present value calculation you can see owning any other reasonable investment is probably better for your future net worth. The real question here is what brings you joy? Anyone who asks me about my watch I let them inspect. If they ask if it's real I usually respond with it was real expensive. If I know the person well enough or sometime I tell them it's a fake and made in China". Most people laugh at me and say "Yeah right, just like you car is made in China. If I dont know the person well I will leave it that. If they are really interested in the watch I will offer to sell it to them right there on the spot for 50% of what I paid for it. It's always nice to buy a new rep right? Anyway this hobby brings me a lot of joy. Right now I'm trying to find parts for MBW White SD 1665 and waiting on a couple of parts for my 1680 ( although I screwed up the keyless system for the crown stem so it's off to The Zigmeister soon ). Just yesterday I got a kickass MBW modern sub in from another member on RWI for a co-worker of mine that own 5 gen Rollies. He wanted this one because he doesnt has a modern Sub. I'm watching for spingbars for Pan and a strap for a Santon 100.. this is great. Lastly, I have learned so much from people all over the world that share in this hobby. Also I've met mostly very reputable people ( alot that have helped me with this hobby and I try to pay it forward when I can ). In summart,, I would do $2k max for an 18k watch and about 800 for a SS watch Cheer, Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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