freddy333 Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 I was about to begin modding the crown guards (enlarge the lug holes and reshape the guards) on the very nice vintage DRSD I got from Andrew at TrustyTime when I ran into a couple of snags: 1. None of the sockets in the Rolex caseback removal tool set from TheWatchPrince.com fit the splines on the DRSD's caseback. The largest of the six sockets, the No.5 socket labeled "29.50", is the closest but it doesn't seat all the way home and, so, I'm afraid that if I apply any pressure and turn it, it'll slip and strip the splines on the caseback. Is there a trick to this or is there a 7th socket for this model that doesn't come with the standard caseback removal set? 2. I've read a (large) number of postings over the course of the past couple of weeks describing how others have successfully drilled out the lug holes on vintage Subs and Sea-Dwellers, but I'm kind of confused as to the correct drill size and whether the drilling operation can be performed with a good Black & Decker hand drill and titanium drill bits (made for drilling metal), or whether I need a drill press? If the latter (I need a drill press), does anyone know if I can use one of the relatively inexpensive gizmos that Home Depot sells that allows you to mount a standard hand drill into its frame and then use it like a drill press? Has anyone had good success with one of these (presuming the hand drill by itself won't cut it)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbj69 Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 the 29.5 is the standard correct size, i dont know if your caseback is standard cause i have not done his watch but im sure it is , but taken one off by hand using that tool usualy is fairly simple unless something is stripped on the drill bit size, i have yet to seen one u can require from our home depot or lowes i order mine online, i use a mini drill press and a jig to hold it steady that i made, so it does a precise clean cut , then i mill around the edges to give it that vintage look sort of like a very slight counter sinking also it deburrs the freshly cut holes, the size i use is slightly smaller than the metric ones most use only because i like the springbars to be snuugger and hold the bracelet snug to the case,(also with wear they loosen up a little bit) i will also tell u i use cobalt bits made by bosche company they seem to last longer and r harder to break when they flex a bit while drilling , i used to use a dremel and it did fine but it was a slow process and sometimes could oval the hole if u dont hold it straight , i hope this helps joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 on the drill bit size, i have yet to seen one u can require from our home depot or lowes i order mine online, i use a mini drill press and a jig to hold it steady that i made, so it does a precise clean cut , then i mill around the edges to give it that vintage look sort of like a very slight counter sinking also it deburrs the freshly cut holes, the size i use is slightly smaller than the metric ones most use only because i like the springbars to be snuugger and hold the bracelet snug to the case,(also with wear they loosen up a little bit) i will also tell u i use cobalt bits made by bosche company they seem to last longer and r harder to break when they flex a bit while drilling , i used to use a dremel and it did fine but it was a slow process and sometimes could oval the hole if u dont hold it straight , i hope this helps joe Joe, Thank you for the info. Can I ask what size drill bit do you use and while I've got your ear, can I also ask what size spring bar you use in the enlarged lug holes and where you purchase the spring bars from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbj69 Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 oops i forgot to put size lol i was rambling and forgot sry , the springbars r 2 mm , and there is a guy on ebay that sells some good ones but i dont use him anymore cause i have a different source , if u need a pair shoot me a email and i will try to help ,size of my drill bit is 1.19 mm , its not written on my bits i just checked , but i found a package with that number on it made by bosch so i believe its right , i ordered 100 of them last time i ordered so they last me a while , i got through some bits man lol i buy other sizes for other projects as well hope this helps joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Snap-On has a number 55 bit that works, it's cobalt and you can order it online. The freight will kill you, but the bits are only $3.25 each. Best to order a few. If your a mechanic, just call your salesman. I think a drill press is the only way to go and as Joe says, you need something to hold the watch, a jig or whatever while you're drilling. Use the slowest speed possible- 550 rpm maybe. Some use oil but I didn't and the cobalt bits cut like butter, but go slowly cause their little bits and very wobbly. Don't want to snap one off! Oh, the dies usually work, 29.5 is the right size, but I have one rep that's a bastard and the Bergeon die doesn't quite fit it. I don't know what WatchPrince sells, but I did have a cheap set from India and it was a POS. FWIW, TWG has some oddball cases, esp. when you get the asian 21j movt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Snap-On has a number 55 bit that works, it's cobalt and you can order it online. The freight will kill you, but the bits are only $3.25 each. Best to order a few. If your a mechanic, just call your salesman. I think a drill press is the only way to go and as Joe says, you need something to hold the watch, a jig or whatever while you're drilling. Use the slowest speed possible- 550 rpm maybe. Some use oil but I didn't and the cobalt bits cut like butter, but go slowly cause their little bits and very wobbly. Don't want to snap one off! Oh, the dies usually work, 29.5 is the right size, but I have one rep that's a bastard and the Bergeon die doesn't quite fit it. I don't know what WatchPrince sells, but I did have a cheap set from India and it was a POS. FWIW, TWG has some oddball cases, esp. when you get the asian 21j movt. Alligoat, Thanks for the additional info. I didn't see that part number (55) on the snap-on.com site, but I did find a part number DBCE55A (http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?tool=all&item_ID=63028&group_ID=939&store=snapon-store), which is a 'Drill Bit, Wire Gauge, Cobalt, .0520"'. Is that the same one? Also, I've already got a set of titanium drill bits (titanium's supposed to be better than cobalt for drilling through steel) in sizes of 1/16", 5/64", 3/32" on up. I realize this probably isn't your specialty (mm-to-inch conversions), but do you know if the 1/16" bit size is similar to the bit you used? The DRSD rep I got from TrustyTime contains an ETA and the caseback removal tool from WatchPrince looks like the same thing ofrei is selling for a few dollars more. So, from your comments above, I'm guessing that the caseback on this DRSD is slightly larger than normal. Any suggestions as to how to remove the caseback since the 29.50 socket I've got doesn't quite fit? Here, and I thought removing the caseback would be the easy part! I guess I'll have to make another trip to Home Depot to see if they have any of those drill press stands that hold a hand drill (I live in an apartment and don't have access to either a drill press or shop where I could borrow one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbj69 Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 it would be more like 3/64 , the ones i use resist heat to 1100*F of heat i use no oil , i used to with those cheap bits however, bosch has it numbered co4130 btw and yes those cheap openers suck especially the t-handle ones joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Dbce55a is the bit. It is smaller than 1/16th, which is .0625". I have all this stuff at work and was writing last night at home, CRS disease. 3/64ths is .046875, so the .0520 is between the two sizes. Nanug's wad of duct tape has worked for me in the past, but it's not the greatest for getting the case back on tight for WR purposes- maybe one of those cheap Indian dies would fit! But who wants to spend the money to find out. One guy talked about buying the rubber end for maybe a set of crutches, or something like that and using it as a suction tool. It definitely going to call for an inventive mind. I'd give the Home Depot drill press thing a try. Look at all the experience you'll gain, but don't forget to try on a cheap rep first. I've got 3 or 4 of those $50-60 reps, they're great for learning and experimenting. I even bought one CN Datejust last year for $60 and it's such a good watch, that I haven't even opened it up or torn it apart. Hell, it's even WR. Maybe I should lube the o-rings and get it pressure tested. I wear it alll the time for doing my "[censored]" work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 The oldest trick in the book is to wad up a hunk of duct tape into a ball, mash it against the caseback and use it to unscrew the piece. It's worked on every one of my reps, and none of my gens. You had my hopes up there, but I just tried it and it didn't work. That thing is definitely screwed on (water?) tight! As an aside, I just checked the fit of that same socket on an old (cheap) 5513 that I purchased a several years ago (with Asian movement) and the 29.5 socket fits perfectly. However, when I compare the splines on the 5513 caseback to those on the TrustyTime vintage DRSD, there's a visible difference. When viewed from the side, the profile of the DRSD splines are considerably more vertical than that of the splines on the 5513, which look very much like the gen caseback. Odd, considering the 5513 was a cheapo and the TrustyTime DRSD is an otherwise well-constructed ETA-based rep. Gee, I sure wish I could find one of those MBWs I keep reading about (but have so far been unable to locate...hint, hint...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Dbce55a is the bit. It is smaller than 1/16th, which is .0625". I have all this stuff at work and was writing last night at home, CRS disease. 3/64ths is .046875, so the .0520 is between the two sizes. Nanug's wad of duct tape has worked for me in the past, but it's not the greatest for getting the case back on tight for WR purposes- maybe one of those cheap Indian dies would fit! But who wants to spend the money to find out. One guy talked about buying the rubber end for maybe a set of crutches, or something like that and using it as a suction tool. It definitely going to call for an inventive mind. I'd give the Home Depot drill press thing a try. Look at all the experience you'll gain, but don't forget to try on a cheap rep first. I've got 3 or 4 of those $50-60 reps, they're great for learning and experimenting. I even bought one CN Datejust last year for $60 and it's such a good watch, that I haven't even opened it up or torn it apart. Hell, it's even WR. Maybe I should lube the o-rings and get it pressure tested. I wear it alll the time for doing my "[censored]" work. Alligoat, Good points, all. I'll order a set of the Dbce55a bits (along with 2mm diameter spring bars) today. Re the caseback remover: what do the modders here usually use to r&r the casebacks? The "L G Rolex Case Opener" that Birdman's got advertised for $75 looks good (even includes a case holder), but I'd like to get some feedback on this (or other recommended options) before I buy another opener that turns out to be...well, problematic. I've got a handful of old reps that I'd like to mod. I'll be making a trip to Home Depot this evening in search of a drill press of some form (hopefully that I can use with my hand drill). I'm not too worried about my ability to do the actual modding, it's getting all of the tools and parts together that I'm worried about. Based on my initial days of reading, I thought I'd had everything I needed a few days ago. But plans went awry when the caseback put the brakes on the operation and some of the recent responses I've gotten have raised other questions that weren't answered (at least not clearly) in what I read. For instance, I now understand that the larger 2mm diameter spring bars may not fit inside the stock rep bracelet end pieces. As these are just bent sheet metal, I'm not clear on how to enlarge them to fit the wider spring bars??? I'm sure I'll have more questions once I get the caseback off and try to remove the crown tube (e.g., is there a recommended crown tube remover?).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 A couple of years back, someone posted on TRC, a tool that was a suction cup arrangement, sort of like what is used for carrying sheets of glass ( only a lot smaller) They got them at Wallmart ( automotive section) for $2.98 at the time ( watch out for inflation) I just dropped over there to try and get a pic for you, but all the links have died. The folks over there swore by them at the time, I tried to find something similar here in Oz, to no avail. You can also try Narikaas " sticky balls", duct tape, or the tool pictured below, they all work with limited success. Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionsandtigers Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 ductape like nanuq says, works every time, dont waste your money on a tool you dont need Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Offshore: I know the tool you're talking about and almost purchased one a few days ago. But I wondered "how do you tighten the caseback to assure water-tightness (or at least water resistance) without the proper socket (to lock onto the caseback splines) and torque"? I figured you still need some sort of socket to reinstall the caseback, and, if so, I might as well get that issue squared away before I try to remove the caseback. I don't want to do a Dubya and get in without having a plan to get out (or, at least, close up). (There's a joke in there somewhere...) lionsandtigers: I don't know if it's a good sign or not, but the duct tape didn't work on the vintage DRSD case I just got from TrustyTime. Alligoat: I don't mean to question your memory, but are you sure the Dbce55a is the correct drill bit to enlarge the lug holes to match the gen Sea-Dweller case and fit the OEM sized spring bars? Just before I placed the order for the Dbce55a, I took another quick look at my 1/16" titanium bit and it doesn't look much larger than the stock lug holes the TrustyTime DRSD rep came with (and the stock lug holes are definitely smaller than the gen holes). So if my 1/16" titanium bit (which is larger in diameter than the Dbce55a) looks too small, could the Dbce55a be the wrong part number? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 works every time, Sometimes, most of the time, rarely, but not every time. If it did we could all do away with all our case back openers. I have quite a few, and recently i had a watch that I couldn't budge ....for the life of me. It was a challenge... and I wasn't going to be beaten..... A week later, it found its way to my friendly repairer/ supplier. He gave it back... opened ... a week later.... unmarked.... with the comment. "That was a tough one, needed hot water to move it" But he wouldn't elaborate further??? He is an old school repairer, and passes on a lot of tricks, but wouldn't be drawn on this. I fail to see how hot water could assist, as the whole case would heat up! Oh well lifes mysteries! Maybe he was having a lend of me. Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionsandtigers Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 on all of the reps i have ever had, (3 mbws, sd from andrew and sub from el) the ductape worked every time. sometimes more force is required, but the casebacks have always come off, and back on tight with no problems whatsoever. maybe its just my luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I just had a brainstorm: I'll get a 50lb iron anvil and weld the front of the watch case to the top face of the anvil. Then I'll weld the caseback to the drill chuck of my 10 ft/lb hand drill. In theory, since the drill can only muster 10 ft/lbs and the anvil weights more than twice that, the caseback outta loosen long before the anvil leaves terra firma and begins to spin... It's been a long week.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Offshore: I know the tool you're talking about and almost purchased one a few days ago. But I wondered "how do you tighten the caseback to assure water-tightness (or at least water resistance) without the proper socket (to lock onto the caseback splines) and torque"? I figured you still need some sort of socket to reinstall the caseback, and, if so, I might as well get that issue squared away before I try to remove the caseback. I don't want to do a Dubya and get in without having a plan to get out (or, at least, close up). (There's a joke in there somewhere...) freddy, Water tightness/seal/ whatever, comes from good seals, not large loads of torque. It only needs to be tight enough to not unscrew.... the only test of waterproof-ness, is to pressure test it. Relate a little story about an underwater camera housing I built years ago. It had 4 wing nuts, on threads tapped in to the housing, securing the face. On a dive ( deep- 200ft) I noticed the wing nuts were all loose. The pressure had compresed the O ring, and the nuts were spinning loose. So ( probably with some narcosis,) I tightened them. As I surfaced, ( and pressure decreased) the threads that were tapped in to the housing tore out of the tapped holes, face plate released, and my precious camera drowned. Took me some time to work this one out. So if you are diving, deep, and notice your caseback is loose ( why you would be checking is another question ) DON'T tighten it... you could probably strip the threads. Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Offshore: Ok, just so I don't end up with the watch equivalent of a drowned camera: the suction-handle contraption (like the one Birdman sells for $4) should be sufficient to reinstall the caseback and still achieve water-tightness (presuming all seals, etc., are up to snuff)? If so, I'll add that to my parts order list. Any other tools/parts/supplies you'd recommend for movement removal, hand r&r, crystal r&r, vintage Sub/Sea-Dweller dial reluming, lug hole enlarging, crown guard modding, etc.? Many thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 (edited) By the way, is this the proper forum for these questions or should I post them in the Expert Area? Edited October 13, 2006 by freddy333 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 @freddy, Here is fine for these sorts of queries. Yes, the suction tool should give you enough leverage to create a seal... as long as the seals are OK you should be waterproof. But as stated earlier, you will only know, after a pressure test. I commend you to spend some time at the following to fora, many questions answered. For instance, I was myself questioning the best hand remover... searched it and voila.. instant answer. http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/6286058233 http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/9486087461 Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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