rosnik Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Hi guys, I'm really happy to announce you, my friend ,the watchmaker Domenico, solved SEC at 6 Daytona problem on A7750. The mod do not envelope Teflon or other strange and exotic treatment, Domenico get 3 correct size rubies under the central well gear, ad that get the A7750 running smooth and perfect with the extra gears! The mood is possible to be applied to AP ROO Sec at 12, and PORTOGHESE or INGENIEUR Sec at 6, and off course he work perfectly in SEC at 6 Daytona 116520 . Personally , I hardly tested one modded Daytona, for two mouths ad half , ad it's is perfect time keeper. Take please in count that the modd is not easy , and not cheap, it require total movement dismounting, modding movement base, add the 3 rubies , remounting and get a complete service. Finally I'll get my Daytona 116520 and my new IWC Porto coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Interesting. However, since none of the graphite-treated watches I have worked on have failed & the material costs only a few dollars & requires only disassembly of the relocation plate/wheels (though a full overhaul is recommended to head-off the usual problems that stem from used/unserviced movements, which can also stop a secs @ 6 movement), I am not sure this is a better option? In any case, I would encourage Domenico to post pics of the procedure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosnik Posted January 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 I do not think some pictures about will come....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zeleni kukuruz Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Woow this is cool Maybe a modern daytona in the future ; Thanks for the info m8! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrgod Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Good news. Sounds like an extensive modding, actually rebuilding the movement as it should have been made in the first place. :-) Interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Interesting. However, since none of the graphite-treated watches I have worked on have failed & the material costs only a few dollars & requires only disassembly of the relocation plate/wheels (though a full overhaul is recommended to head-off the usual problems that stem from used/unserviced movements, which can also stop a secs @ 6 movement), I am not sure this is a better option? In any case, I would encourage Domenico to post pics of the procedure. Agree. It would be an interesting discussion to comment and provide insight on the techincal and real merits of such a modification, especially given that the modification of the seconds transfer consists of 4 new gears running on the plates. - How does modifying only 1 gear and only on one side of the gear solve the problem when it only involves 25% of the gears, what about the other 75% of the gears, do they not have friction. - How do jewels on the bottom of a gear work to reduce friction - when the movement if flipped over and the gear is not touching the jewels anymore - How do these new jewels work when the movement is held in the vertical position and the gear is running on it's inner edge, - so many questions, but no answers... This discussion can't take place, because many members get offended if even one question is asked, HOW Dare you ask a question!!! If I raise even one doubt as to the viability of this type of modification, I'll be roasted and flamed to hell...so best to not say anything more...I've said to much already... I'll let the members sort it out for themselves. But you are definetly on the right track...I'm with you freddy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Zig - There will always be nah-sayers, but you should never let them stop you from educating with facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Zig - There will always be nah-sayers, but you should never let them stop you from educating with facts. Many years ago I would not hesitate to step in, but times have changed and I don't have the time to spend defending my comments or putting up with PM after PM blasting me for saying anything... Still recovering from my comment on the poor lume application... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosnik Posted January 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Agree. It would be an interesting discussion to comment and provide insight on the techincal and real merits of such a modification, especially given that the modification of the seconds transfer consists of 4 new gears running on the plates. - How does modifying only 1 gear and only on one side of the gear solve the problem when it only involves 25% of the gears, what about the other 75% of the gears, do they not have friction. - How do jewels on the bottom of a gear work to reduce friction - when the movement if flipped over and the gear is not touching the jewels anymore - How do these new jewels work when the movement is held in the vertical position and the gear is running on it's inner edge, - so many questions, but no answers... This discussion can't take place, because many members get offended if even one question is asked, HOW Dare you ask a question!!! If I raise even one doubt as to the viability of this type of modification, I'll be roasted and flamed to hell...so best to not say anything more...I've said to much already... I'll let the members sort it out for themselves. But you are definetly on the right track...I'm with you freddy... no problem mate........ I'll translate for you. Replay will be soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosnik Posted January 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Many years ago I would not hesitate to step in, but times have changed and I don't have the time to spend defending my comments or putting up with PM after PM blasting me for saying anything... Still recovering from my comment on the poor lume application... Zig I'm sure you are a gentleman! Please fly more high , mate In USA you are sure the best. But all the EU guys got a lot of customs problems to ship to you...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Zig I'm sure you are a gentleman! Please fly more high , mate In USA you are sure the best. But all the EU guys got a lot of customs problems to ship to you...... It's not about customs and it's not about EU. The forum has lost it's ability to be open and discuss things without members getting all upset and shitting on other members. At one time (you remember, you've been here almost as long as me) we could have open discussions about TECHNICAL matters, without members taking anything personally. Today, everyone takes any comment personally, just look at the sales forum, you say one word or ask a question about a watch, and you get flamed. I love nothing more than a good technical debate, epecially about movements, but when members take a technical comment or question as an insult, it's impossible to have a real discussion and learn more... This is why I don't participate or post anymore, what's the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star69 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 there is room for at least two good watchmaker i saw the Daytona - and a lot of APs - i think the fix makes more sense for this bad boys ... cheers, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 This is why I don't participate or post anymore, what's the point? The point is that your posts become permanent references for the rest of us (who can easily tune-out the chaff). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikellem Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 i'll go with The Zigmeister! MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star69 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 you guys dont got it - this is not against The Zigmeister i had personal bad experience with the old method (AP ) and Domi made some great progress - thats what this about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolexman Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Many years ago I would not hesitate to step in, but times have changed and I don't have the time to spend defending my comments or putting up with PM after PM blasting me for saying anything... Still recovering from my comment on the poor lume application... That's just sad Rob. In real life you don't let people shut you up right? I say speak your mind! Always. Let people say or think what they want. If you can effect or help just one person with your post that should be enough. Enjoy those moments and forget the rest. All the vets know who you are and appreciate the input and knowledge you bring to the forum. F#ck the ignorant members. Ps: That lume job wás p!ss poor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star69 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 That's just sad Rob. In real life you don't let people shut you up right? I say speak your mind! Always. Let people say or think what they want. If you can effect or help just one person with your post that should be enough. Enjoy those moments and forget the rest. All the vets know who you are and appreciate the input and knowledge you bring to the forum. F#ck the ignorant members. Ps: That lume job wás p!ss poor Drama Drama YEAH ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TgfRulez Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 My Offshore got also the mod from Domi.. Now it' s running strong!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 To be honest without some decent photos and a good description of what has been done and why I fail to see how 3 jewels on one jewel can reduce the friction of 4 gears when a minimum of 8 would be required ( assuming none of the gears operate co-axialy) to make this any more than reducing the friction of one gear in order for the movement to work in one axis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 My Offshore got also the mod from Domi.. Now it' s running strong!! Was your Offshore running prior to Domi's mod? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zeleni kukuruz Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 I think that this is fantastic!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Ok, so lets see where this goes, here's what I have learned about the seconds modified A7750's since I took apart and did a report on the first one in 2005, if you remember that one was an ETA7750. Seconds at 12 and at 3 models are completely JEWELLED, and these movements, in my experience, are well designed, well made, and with all the gears running on arbors and pivots in jewels, these models need nothing but a good servicing. There is nothing that should be done to these models except give them a correct servicing, my experience is they are good to go as is.On the very rare occasion when one of the above won't run with the seconds transfer gears in place, there is nothing that can be done to fix the problem, it's a design problem and a combination of poor tolerances on the gears. The cause of the problem is not pivot friction, it's gear meshing friction, which can't be fixed without new gears. Graphite may be a solution but I have had zero success in getting graphite to stick to my parts after I have polished them to a mirror finish...On the seconds at 6 models (Daytona, IWC, etc), the problem is 2 parts, Part 1 none of the transfer gears are properly made with arbour and pivots, Part 2, ALL the gears sit flat on the movement plates and this is the real cause of the most of the friction. The reason these movements don't work correctly is due to the added friction of the 4 transfer gears running on the plates. Some have had success with graphite treatment, but as above, I have not...On the seconds at 6 models, the center transfer gear is only 1/4 of the gears that make up the transfer gears (I am not including gear 5 which is the one on the post for the 4th wheel, this gear has no friction because it's on the end of post and turns freely). So how can modifying only 1 of the 4 gears fix all the friction problems.To properly address any friction issues with the transfer gears (all 4 of them) requires eliminating the friction in ALL the gears, not only 1 gear.I have seen what look like identical movements in 2 different watches give completely opposite results, following the exact same servicing procedure, cleaning, oiling, etc, one of the watches will work perfectly with the running seconds gears in place, and the other identical watch won't work at all.For any test to be valid, you would need to start with a watch that won't run with all the gears in place. If you happen to have an unserviced watch that's not running, and you perform this modification, how do you know what fixed the problem, your servicing, or your modification?You would also need a good sample of watches to perform the test on and check your modifications to be able to know if the modifications actually fixed the problem.I would not be comfortable with good results on only a couple of watches, because of the above facts.For any modification to be valid, not only do you have to address the friction in all the gears, you have to address the friction in all the positions, dial up, dial down, and crown down.If you only put in place a fix that only comes into effect in the dial up position, how can the modification be valid.The testing would have to be done in all positions, and the balance amplitude, and rate would have to be monitored. If there is any loss of power in various positions, you will see the balance swings reduce and the timing run faster.I have seen too many variables with these A7750's to be comfortable in accepting that by a simple modification to only one gear in only one position, that the problem is totally solved, it's never that easy, all you have to do is examine any genuine running seconds transfer movement to see what is really needed to make it work. If your modification is not to the same standard as the design on the genuine models, I don't see how it's going to work... That's about it for now, a lot of questions and these are not directed or meant to be negative, maybe they have all been considered. I know I have considered many of these over the past 6 years, and the answer is not simple or easy... More details and pictures of the process would be a big help, lets see what we get... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Here is a good example of my details above... This is a LWO 283 Chrono module, for a movement used in the Genuine AP with Running Seconds at 12. In this module, the transfer of seconds from the middle of the movement to the 12 position is only via 3 gears, 1 gear on the end of the seconds post on the ETA 2892A2, a flat transfer gear (not unlike the one in the center of the A7750) and a pivoted gear for the hand to attach to. Please note the following points, look at the jewelling and the efforts to reduce friction, and this for only 2 moveable gears (as compared to 4 moveable gears on the A7750), also look at the design of the transfer gear, it's completely jewelled and also held in position by a small arm and the center is also jewelled, so the gear doesn't move around when the watch is moved (unlike the A7750 where the center gear is loose between the plates). This is a correct design, if it takes this much work for only 2 gears, how much would we need for the 4 gears on the A7750. Comments? ================================================================================================================== ====================================================================================================================== ==================================================================================================================== ========================================================================================================================== ======================================================================================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bricciola Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) ZIG, You already make a picture of the DD module.. you give yourself an answer.. so why do you want further explanation on my mod methods? the matter of fact is: my method works perfectly... domi.. the modMEISTER watchmarker of the year 2011 Edited January 18, 2012 by Bricciola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Domi how many times have you done this and with what results. What was the amplitude before and after? In what angles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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