gran Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Someone wants to make money some will use the word SWISS to get the price up unfortunately sometimes a seller does not know much about movements and how to tell one movement from the other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Someone wants to make money some will use the word SWISS to get the price up unfortunately sometimes a seller does not know much about movements and how to tell one movement from the other... A point in note with the seagull 2892 copy being sold in watches as an ETA2892, nothing wrong with the movement (pictures earlyer in theis thread) i have one reliable keeps good time but it is not an ETA, it took a bit of education on my part before i realised this. When i see these works being described as ETA it is annoying i would much rather see it described at a seagull even at the same price, it is a great movement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingkitesurf Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 For what I heard about the ETA 2836 and 2824 is that when it has the -2 in it (2836-2), it is a chinese assembled but from original parts (which might very well also be produced in China). The full gold versions idem dito. Words go that the nikkel version really got it's QC and assemblage in Swiss. They can be bought at 80$ approx at Ofrei. Then there are the imitations of the ETA. those are all Chinese but also use look alike parts etc. They have the measurements but are different than ETA. Factories are Seagul, Chi whatever brandname they have. Is this all true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 If CHI ETA is made in China (ok, maybe with a Swiss parts), why ALL the dealer sell them as a 'Swiss ETA' and not 'Chinese ETA'?? Because ETA calls them Swiss Made. They even stamp it on the movement before it even gets to Switzerland. Swiss Made is a very specific term. It's a legally binding term defined by the Swiss government and watch industry. No replica on the planet is Swiss Made, no matter what anyone ever tells you. What it boils down to is that if a dealer sells you a 'Swiss' Watch, he means it has an ETA movement in it. If that ETA is made in Switzerland or China, it's still an ETA movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 he means it has an ETA movement in it or beleives (is under the impression) it has an ETA movement in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 We all understand -I hope-that our rep watches vary due to many "assemblers" acquiring parts from different manufacturers. ETA, ( regardless of where their factories are based) would probably source some component parts from outside contractors. Therefore these parts COULD also become available to other assemblers.. there lies the $64 question... which will probably never be satisfactorily answered. I have told this story before, however I believe it throws light on the whole Asian manufacturing physche. Some years ago, I was buying parts for outboard motors, considered " aftermarket" ie. non original. In one factory I was shown a high volume part, and was offered it .. with or without the original manufacturers part no. When I queried whether the "manufacturer" would sue them for using the P/N, I was told..." Oh no, we make that part for them, we just have 2 dies, one with the P/N and one without... which one do you want?" They didn't see that the part belonged to the "manufacturer" it was theirs, and they could sell whatever they produced, to whoever had the ready $$!! I bought many thousands of that part, and made a lot of money, until the manufacturer, ( a major listed company) told me to stop selling the part ( and others) with their P/No's... with a threat of ongoing legal action, which I would certainly loose. So I purchased the part, without the part no. embedded, and heard little more. Eventually, other steps were taken to stop my trade, ( another whole story) So parts is parts! They may be produced for ETA, they may be copies, (they may even come from an old die, or manufacturing process from the original).. That which is assembled may be all/some/ or none, of the original or copied parts. They may be assembled by ETA factories, or by ETA workers out of hours freelancing, or by some grotty little shop with unskilled, ill equipped workers, using whatever bits are laying around. ETA... Swiss....Asian....Chinese... we probably would need to DNA each part to try to find an origin... and we still wouldn't know the truth of the assembly quality. Just my take on it guys. Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Absolutely! 'Back door' stock is a common phenomenon where items are made under licence in the Far East. There is of course the point that ETA themselves grade their movements and mark them accordingly (The Zigmeister did a fantastic post about this over on old RWG) so they are willing to accept there are tolerances in their product. Furthermore, ETA will use different parts in production depending on availability (eg. the shock protection on the balance wheel can be either Incabloc or KIF-Flector, distinguishable by the different shape of the retaining spring). I have absolutely no doubt this is 100% true, and also that there are many "not-really-quite-ETA ETA's in our reps, but just as a matter of real world experience: I have never had a problem with a bum movement in a rep if it was 1)verified as one of the above mentionted "versions" of an ETA movements or 2) a decent model of chinese movement that I had serviced immediately. I have had problems with 1)crappy chinese movemnts (Asia 7750, asian movements with complicatons added at the rep factory, etc.). It is very interesting to investigate our movements...but I hope new collectors don't worry too much, and as a result clog the forum and dealers' inboxes with "Is this movement really a real swiss ETA" questions. Statistically, they can expect to never have a problem as long as they: --buy watches powered by a movement that a respected dealer advertises as ETA and --send all of their seagull, etc. powered reps to a smith as soon as they're delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I just wish that i had the photo skills of Pug or TTK so i could show you the works in my railmaster, full perlage fantastily clean, keeps almost perfect time (-1 sec per day now) nickle plated. I doupt that is was shipped to Shitinerand for finishing and then back to china to be installed. I aslo doupt that the factorys buy from otto frie to install a better looking movement. I realy belive that all of these are made in china and am happy with that, and even happier when people talk about there gen breitling or tag being better because it has a swiss works! made in china, they realy refuse to belive that when i tell them. The same realy about porche 4x4 owners with there German car (made in the Chech republic) So lets raise a glass to the swinese or chiss watch factorys who make us happy. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I just wish that i had the photo skills of Pug or TTK so i could show you the works in my railmaster Send me the watch and I'll photograph it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Send me the watch and I'll photograph it I would if i could get it off my wrist, but it is like a magnet, have had it on for a month away, come home swap watches and a day later i look down and it is back on there. It realy is that good, got it from josh if you are interested. how ever the best phot i could find was on trustys site, take you pick, have a look at the middle photo close up of the works, it realy is fantastic.trustys railmaster PS sorry for hijacking the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 So lets raise a glass to the swinese or chiss watch factorys who make us happy. I like those terms. I think we should officially adopt them and use them every time a noobie asks about the origins of our watches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 WOW... what a thread ... and it's my first thread :-) If CHI ETA is made in China (ok, maybe with a Swiss parts), why ALL the dealer sell them as a 'Swiss ETA' and not 'Chinese ETA'?? Simple answer is because irrespesctive of which ETA plant made the movt, ETA is a Swiss company not Chinese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 SWISS MADE sounds better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-Stu Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 (edited) Hey I second the motion that this is a great thread. As a side note I'd like to give a plug for the Eterna watch company whose wonderful Super Kon Tiki I am presently wearing. You see, back in the day ETA was the movement manufacturing division of Eterna. Then in 1932, ETA split off and joined Ebauches S.A. Eterna and ETA continued to work jointly on some designs for a number of years. Almost all ETA and Eterna automatics share the Eterna-designed automatic winding system: a ball bearing mounted rotor winding in two directions via springless twin click wheels and two reduction wheels on the locking wheel. The 5 ball bearings of the rotor in pentagon configuration continues to be the symbol of Eterna watches and it is proudly displayed on the face and bracelet of my Kon Tiki. Now for the real point of my posting. With ETA movements ostensibly now made in China and a good deal of the case and bracelet assemblies of "Chiss" origin, what exactly are you paying for when you plunk down the big bucks for some Swiss "designer" brands. There is undoubtably some quality control on the Swiss end and in some brands there is finish work and filligree applied to the movements visible parts. The movement may be oiled and regulated as well. But, and here is the huge BUT-MONKEY, can this amount of labor and "expertise" justify a price increase of several thousands of dollars? No-way, no- how. You are just paying for their marketing and the cache of their name recognition. You will notice that I refer to these companies as "designer brands." There is certainly an exception for those companies that create and manufacture their own movements and do most, if not all of their machining. Hey, I'm really glad I found this place, because you guys really love your watches and that's very cool with me. Edited October 31, 2006 by True-Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 That kon-tiki must be worth quite some money. 2000 dollars or so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-Stu Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 That kon-tiki must be worth quite some money. 2000 dollars or so? It really isn't worth that much. On the used market it might fetch $800 US. Eterna as a watch brand never really caught on in the modern era. The Super Kontiki chronometer 300m that I have is 1998-2000 vintage. I think the retail price was just under $2000. The company is now owned by Ferdinand Porsche and manufactures their own line as well as the Porsche design watches under license. I bought it at the time because it was a drop dead gorgeous watch that didn't look like a Rolex Sub wannabe. The unique history of the watch also appealed to me. The Kontiki model was originally designed in 1947 as one of the first sport watches. It was commissioned for the crew of Norwegian explorer and writer Thor Heyerdahl in his expedition across the Pacific in the balsa wood raft they called "Kontiki" after the Peruvian Sun God. The back of the watch has a nice engraving of the Kontiki. I happen to think that the watch spanks the Sub in terms of style, fit and finish and most importantly (to me anyway) people comment on how nice it looks, but have no idea what it is or what it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-Stu Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 I really do need to take the time to include pictures. My descriptions just don't do the watch justice. I think I'll do a search on picture posting and get some advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-Stu Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Ok, here are some pics of the Super Kontiki This one is the black face, like I have. A simple, yet elegant variation on the Sub theme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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