Guest chronomat123 Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Hey all-- Just wanted to take a second to explain everything, thank Arthur, and let everyone know that he's been taken care of. Few weeks ago, Arthur (panerai153) posted here on RWG that he was dissatisfied with the MBW 1680 he received from me-- with good reason, might I add. I was late in mailing the watch to him on the promised date, because of exams and internship rotations (I'm interning for the oral/maxillofacial surgery and head & neck surgery dep't of a very well-known hospital here in Florida). I'm in over my head with school and work and really shouldn't have offered the watch for sale when I knew I wouldn't be able to offer the buyer the speediest PM replies, mailing, etc. Arthur understands this, as he was once a medical student and he has not only accepted my apology but wished me the best of luck in my endeavors. He's a genuinely good guy, and very easy to work with. Anyway, Arthur was disatissfied with the watch because I'd botched an attempted lughole drilluing mod on it. In all honesty, it didn't look as bad in person as it did in his pictures-- the photos of the lugholes he posted were quite magnified, and the lighting made them stand out. Not that he was trying to be deceptive, but I felt that needed to be put in some perspective. Truth is, I absolutely should've told him about this in advance, but I nevertheless intended all along to follow-up with him as to how he wanted me to take care of it, as I knew he would be sending it to The Zigmeister for mods as soon as he received it from me. Arthur had the intention all along of sending the watch off to The Zigmeister for mods as soon as he received it from me. So I have told him I will happily cover the cost of rectifying the lugholes to his satisfaction by the watchsmith/modder of his choice. Additionally, Arthur claimed the watch arrived DOA, not running, although it was only 2 weeks old from "our MBW source", and was running perfectly when I mailed it out. But [censored] happens, I guess... So I have also offered to cover the cost of any necessary work on the movement to get it running again. Fortunately, I insured it, so insurance may cover that. As for the bezel-- Arthur cleared this up, but I felt it bore repeating: The bezel insert on the MBW indeed was missing a pearl, and indeed had some wear-- that's because it was a genuine Rolex bezel insert. Not like I threw some cheapo piece of crap bezel insert on there. Surprised the experts who called out the insert as junk didn't realize they were staring at a genuine Rolex part. Additionally, I am also sending Arthur a small gift for his patience. All in all, Arthur got a 2 week old MBW 1680 with a genuine Rolex crystal and genuine Rolex Submariner 1680 bezel insert-- for less than $300. That's almost $600 worth of watch. He got a good deal, but should've received it sooner, and with better lugholes. Thanks again, Arthur, for being a stand-up guy, and giving me the chance to make everything to your satisfaction. PS: I've been scarce around RWG, as I don't have very much free time these days. I have a few rep vs. gen reviews I've been working on, so I'll post them when they're complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikellem Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 My honest opinion is.... You should NEVER sent that watch off like you did. I don't care if you were taking the Medical Boards. Arthur is an extremely kind person and is willing to forgive you! That's more than I could ever do! This isn't the first time you have had problems representing your watches on this board. I personally find no reason to ever do business with you or someone of your nature! Sorry! -MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chronomat123 Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 mikellem-- you're halfway right. i should've fixed the lugholes before I mailed the watch off, but I didn't want to screw them up any worse, so instead I told Arthur I would pay for him to have them done right. there was no malevolence involved here. As for your other comment....I don't know what you're talking about. This is the first and only time I've "had problems representing [my] watches on this board." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Apart from the trade, good luck with your studies!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Chronomat, not to beat a dead horse over and over, but if you happen to read this thread again, can you let some of us nosies know why you would drill the lughole on the watch, when you told Arthur that you are sending him a new watch? Besides the bezel and other issues, that is the most puzzling thing on my mind. If you tell him you are sending him a new watch, why did you even attempt to drill the lughole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikellem Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Chronomat, not to beat a dead horse over and over, but if you happen to read this thread again, can you let some of us nosies know why you would drill the lughole on the watch, when you told Arthur that you are sending him a new watch? Besides the bezel and other issues, that is the most puzzling thing on my mind. If you tell him you are sending him a new watch, why did you even attempt to drill the lughole? Thanks Woody! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 (edited) I am sorry but that explanation is just full of holes, rationaliztions and improper logic... The way you tell it overlooks some major issues: You say he was angry because you botched some drilling... I would think he was angry becuaes you represented that watch as "new" and there is NO way that was an honest mistake. Your intention all along was to make it right to him? How would you feel if you went in to have filling done and the dentist used a known bad method to do the work, then a week later when you found out and came back to complain he said "Oh yeah... no obviously I knew I was doing something wrong, but really I planned not to charge you for the root canal to fix it later when you found out about it." There is a saying I try to keep near and dear to my heart: "Don't [censored] on my leg and tell me it's raining." The bezel thing... again... it's a case of "well it was wrong but I rationlized it". Legitimately it may carry signficnt value becaue it's a gen and it may offset the damage to it, but it's not the right way to do things to justify it after the fact. If you want to exchange one value for another the other person should be aware of it and ok. If I pay you for an SS band and you send me a Rose Gold band, in all fairness that RG is probably worth far more and so I should be ok with it. But it's still not right unless you told me about it and I agreed. It's not for you to decide what's ok to switch up on someone... in all fairness I would think he would be more than happy with a slightly worn gen bezel... but it was wrong not to give him to opportunity to say it's ok or not. How about: You go in for a root canal, come out of anesthesia and find out he pulled the tooth and made you a bridge. He says "Don't worry, I will only charge you for a root canal and not for the expense of making the bridge." Well yeah... I just got a tooth pulled and a bridge made for much less than it normally costs... but it wasn't his choice to make to give me that deal... To tell someone the details upfront and get their consent, even if that means offering to pay for known problems is an honest and legitimate way to do business. To missrepresent something, knowingly send damaged product (regarless of how you rationlize it's value or the level of it's damage by way of your own scale) then try to rationlize your way out of it... that's just not kosher. One way is a legitimate and honest way to do things, the other is a sort of "crap you caught me, ok lemme fix it up for you" way to do things... From what I have read it sounds like you are trying to justify your actions because you did the right thing in the end... but I personally don't feel that's how it works. It's about character. And everything about this deal seems to lack character on your end. Anyone can fix it when they get caught and the spotlight is on them. The real test of character is whether you leave anything to be caught on. I am sorry, but I have to agree that you are lucky he is a good guy and is forgiving you... I am new to reps but not new to life and I would be leary of doing any kind of business with you based on this transaction. I am sorry to see this happen because I believe you have contributed a lot of value to the forum... and I am not trying to say anything about you outside your business practices... but your business practice... well it could use some serious work on the bedside manner. Edited November 5, 2006 by Devedander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosanim Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Quote: I don't care if you were taking the Medical Boards Just beside the topic, but have you ever taken any board exams(medical, dental , anything)? It is easier said than done. There are many members here who had gone through that, so please, be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikellem Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 @dosamin... It's not a matter of being nice or not... It's a matter of honesty, integrity and credability... Or the lacking of there of... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chronomat123 Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Damned if I do, damned if I don't, eh? I'm planning on leaving these forums. Over some goddamn lugholes, a stupid mod I tried to do as a favor. I literally had NO SPARE TIME between 9-5 (USPS store hours) any day for almost 2 weeks, so when I had a free second from the hospital, I literally sped to USPS and got it off to him, I wanted to get the watch to him as quickly as possible, which meant I had to send it to him with the lugholes in the condition they were. I followed up with Arthur the following day and explained it all to him and he had no objection to or dissatisfaction with having The Zigmeister repair the lugholes on my dime. Mind you, Arthur indicated to me he was going to send the watch to The Zigmeister for mods and he only had a certain amount of time to get the watch to him. If I had taken the watch to a jeweller to fix the lugholes, Arthur would've had to wait another few days, which might have caused him to lose his place in the waiting line for The Zigmeister's mods. I didn't want to do this to him. As for the bezel...Arthur had indicated to me that he would be putting the genuine bezel on the watch, so I went ahead and did that for him, which is harder than it sounds, because I had to file down part of the bezel insert so that it would fit. I still have the piece of crap MBW bezel insert. Furthermore, the Rolex bezel insert was never described as brand new. It wasn't misrepresented. Dishonest? There's a difference between this and dishonesty-- genuinely malavolent, ill-intentioned "I'm hiding something from you, sucker" dishonesty. as for your comment that I handled this in a "crap you caught me, ok lemme fix it up for you" manner. Well, you're dead wrong there, too. I called Arthur the day he received the watch and asked him what he wanted to do. It's not as though he called me and we argued and he "caught me." we had a polite, friendly phone conversation and he understood things better. I sucked with communication, and that's the main reason this happened. Bottom line. I was extremely busy with something that affects my life and future very seriously. I should have waited until I had more time to sell the watch. As a result of me not having a life vis a vis midterms and interning, I was late in mailing out Arthur's watch, caught between a rock and a hard place because I wanted to get the lugholes repaired but that repair would take at least 2-3 days, which would have further delayed delivery and may have thus forfeited his spot in line for The Zigmeistermods. so I sent the watch out when I had the earliest opportunity, and followed up when he received it and we resolved everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 (edited) As for the questionable morality of rep watches, I made a post about that very issue a few days ago... I was honest and upfront about how I feel about it. But this is more an issue of "honor amongst thieves" if you will... Again, all the rationlizations you made sound kind of good... until you think about them... the main link in all of them? You didn't check with Art before making deicisions that weren't yours to make. You made decisions and choice bassed on assumptions about the situation that seemed ok to you... but I think you are seeing how that doesn't really work. As for never claiming the gen bezel was new... come one... he didn't even know he was getting a gen bezel! If you are sending a whole watch, and you say the watch is new, then I think it's implying that the entire watch is new... I mean how can it be a new watch if you ahve done any modding to it at all? You only have to look at Arts reaction to the damaged bezel to see that indeed that was the meaning he understood. Rationlizing after the fact never leaves a good taste... Maybe it will be more obvious when you see someone else doing it... check this post and see if you can draw some similarities to the explanations of things... certainly it's a different situation but I get the same bad taste from reading it http://www.replicacollector.com/members/in...c=26416&hl= @ Chronos last post: First off your delayed mailing was covered and if that was all I think we could understand. You should have known better than to put an item for sale during such a hectic time in your life, but hell if we haven't all done similar things at some point. That can easily be viewed as an honest mistake. As for the other parts, I said dishonest, I didn't say mallevolent. And you keep wrapping your actions up in rationlizations and things to make it look pretty... If you had taken it to a jewlers it would have made him loose his place with The Zigmeister? No... if you hadn't tried to drill lugholes in a watch you represented as new then he wouldnt' be in a position to risk his position. Driled lugholes as a favor? During the two weeks you were so totally bombed from school you couldn't mail a package you took it on yourself to attempt a mod on a watch which at this point wasn't really yours anymore (it was Arts since the agreement was made)? Ok let's say you did... and you did out of the goodness of your heart. You still screwed up the "new" watch... This is the point at which you were damned... there was no damned if you don't, you already did. Whatever the reason behind it, you did it. And unless I missread Arts detail of it there was a rather significant gap between when he recieved the watch and when he got some contact with you. And no I am not a lawyer... I am just articulate and detailed and I have an aversion to people who can't be honest with themselve and others about their shortcommings. I try my best to be honest about my failings and I think that's all you can really ask of someone... to be honest about their failures and to try and learn from them. It just rubs me the wrong way when a situation like this comes along. I truely hope I am totally in the wrong here and just a victim of hearing about a sitauation vs being in the situation... but from where I sit it just doesn't look likely. As I said it's a sad thing that you want to leave becuase I believe you have contributed some real value to this forum (during my many hours reading this forum to try and educate myself on reps I seem to recall you rname comming up quite a few times) and I honestly am not trying to drive you away. But it is just hard for me to sit idly by while a (at least as far as I can understand it) situation like this unfolds. This is all getting too complicated and it's getting too late for me to write anything of increasing value so I am just going to say that to me, all the other details, who was going to do what, how it was tied together and whatnot, it all stems from doing anything to a watch advertised as "new" and which was already spoken for, so really not yours to make decisions about anymore. After the drilling of lugholes the only legitimate solution I could see at your disposal to meet the timeframe from Art was to send back the white one that he originally bought from you rather than send off the damaged red one. That would have shown honest good intention and integrity... I just can't fathom the rationlizing and special circumstances it would take for me to not see you for a bad light considering the path you chose. I hope when you get your degree and are working on a patient under the gas, you aren't quite as liberal making decisions that aren't yours to make... I see you are reading the post over at TRC... you can see how it rubs me the wrong way that people act like this... so I hope you don't take it personally... and in reality... I hope either I am totally seeing this wrong (in which case I apologize) or you see the error of your ways and learn to accept the conscequenses of your actions instead of rationlizing and trying to work your way out of a nasty spot. I think that' ability is a virtue in life that helps build character... and let me tell you character is VERY important to the success of anyone in the medical profession. Edited November 5, 2006 by Devedander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chronomat123 Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Actually, Arthur did know he was receiving a genuine Rolex bezel insert and crystal. And you're even further mistaken with Art's reaction to the bezel--he thought it came off my other MBW, as it was missing a pearl. When he realized the bezel on there was not transplanted from my other used MBW but was in fact the genuine bezle he'd been promised, he was satisfied. Seriously, if you're going to malign someone in a public venue, isn't it ethical to at least have some knowledge of the facts of the situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitmic Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 I don't know the issues of your deal, except the pics I've seen. I won't even comment the deal gone down. Whatever the solution to this deal might be, I'd like you to stay on this board. If you choose to leave: Take care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chronomat123 Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 But it is just hard for me to sit idly by while a (at least as far as I can understand it) situation like this unfolds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 What do I have to do to have you satisfied? I suspect a lot of people would have preferred that you didn't get to the point you needed to gift him in the first place. That's the impression I get. Still, if Arthur is happy, you've made good on the trade and that's all we can ask for. I suspect you'll find it a little harder to trade for a while, but RWG is a forgiving bunch. Sometimes a little too forgiving, tbh, so you should be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 But it is just hard for me to sit idly by while a (at least as far as I can understand it) situation like this unfolds. Well, deve, let's be constructive. I've apologized profusely, am sending Arthur a gift, paying for lugholes and springbars on his new watch, paying for movement repairs even though I sent him a watch that was running perfectly. I can't speak for him, but he said he's satisfied and content with the deal. What do I have to do to have you satisfied? You have to be show character and integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 (edited) I suspect a lot of people would have preferred that you didn't get to the point you needed to gift him in the first place. That's the impression I get. Still, if Arthur is happy, you've made good on the trade and that's all we can ask for. I suspect you'll find it a little harder to trade for a while, but RWG is a forgiving bunch. Sometimes a little too forgiving, tbh, so you should be fine. I would give more head to what Pug says than what I do... while I think I am still in the right, he has more expeience here and I think summed it up quite well. This whole ordeal is bell you can't unring. I hope you stay around and contribute to the forums the value you have shown you clearly can (more than I have contributed to say the least) but I also hope in the process you show that you have learned from this and moved on and hopefully it avoids future ringing of bells you would want to unring Edited November 5, 2006 by Devedander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chronomat123 Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 I suspect a lot of people would have preferred that you didn't get to the point you needed to gift him in the first place. That's the impression I get. I intended that line to be dripping with sarcasm, but I've neevr been the best writer. Arthur is satisfied with how I made things right, so what does this devedender guy want from me. A customer expresses dissatisfaction. Seller goes above and beyond what he had to do to make customer happy. The customer is happy. Integrity and character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 (edited) I guess he's just an eloquent chopbuster. For all my eloquence, I couldn't have said it better myself! But to be fair... if how Arthur felt was really all that was important... you wouldn't have started this thread... you opened the door... I just walked through it. Integrity: A customer expresses dissatisfaction. Seller goes above and beyond what he had to do to make customer happy. The customer is happy. Character: Never putting yourself in a position where you have to prove your integrity. Edited November 5, 2006 by Devedander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chronomat123 Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Integrity: A customer expresses dissatisfaction. Seller goes above and beyond what he had to do to make customer happy. The customer is happy. So you would at least concede this deal was ultimately resolved with integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 (edited) The resolution was handled with integrity. You could well have left Art hanging high and dry. The actions that made the resolution necessary... not so much so. Why you chose to resolve this the way you did, and how you use this experience in the future will atrribute greatly to your character. Look at how some of the senior members treat Paul from Womart... remember it doesn't take much to brand yourself in a negative way... it takes a lot to remove that branding. Pauls apparently good service and quality products of late don't seem to be doing the job very quickly... and I would think this fiasco will take a far amount of effort on your side to counteract... but I hope you managed achieve that counteraction eventually. Integrity and character I think would go a long way towards that goal... toss a little humility in there and I think you will find the journey shortened considerably I honestly hope the best for you in all respects going foward. After all, there is nothing to be gained by anyone for wishing the worst on someone Edited November 5, 2006 by Devedander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Good luck on your boards. I was the last year in ID when you had to take them once for a lifetime. Thank God!!! 4 out of th 6 attendings in our practice have to teke them every 10 years and that might be enough for me to seek another career. IMHO, what you are concentrating on is FAR more important than this little hobby that sure as hell has it's share of pompus, opinionated prima donnas. The fact that you are contrite and open about an honest mistake says loads about your character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajoesmith Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 @Devedander Sounds like chronomat123 has learnt his lesson this time, he getting lots of stick from you and he has to pay a lot of $$$$ to fix arthurs watch. Now..... Since youve had so much input in this thread how about upgrading to RWG Supporter??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajoesmith Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 oh and you too crystalcranium you been around longer than i have!!!! How about supporting the forum a little?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 oh and you too crystalcranium you been around longer than i have!!!! How about supporting the forum a little?? Hey, my subscription just expired 5 days ago and I forgot to re-up. Give me a break! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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