My current dilemma.

[bell]

Okay, so I'll try and keep this short.

I purchased a watch from a member of another forum, payment via paypal.

The seller sent the watch over using a postal method, the watch passed customs no problem, but is now apparently lost.

Now normally, I know that when the post office loses an item they will reimburse the sender for the insured value.

I know because last year I shipped a turbocharger over to a guy in Nevada, and they lost it.... But since I like being on the safe side, I paid the extra 15 bucks and had it insured for $750 (which is what I sold it for).

I got a check about 90 days later, a long time, but I did get my money back.

In this case, the sender decided to put the value at $30 - I paid $200 for the watch.

Not sure if he did that to avoid suspicion, but I can't imagine anyone at the post office giving a sh*t over a $30 loss.

So usually, this is pretty cut and dry, Paypal will get my money back since the item never arrived.

He did send the watch out but he originally agreed to cover the shipping, so I had no control over the method or any insurance.

He made the choice to insure it for $30.

The dilemma is that I didn't really want it to go this way, I know the rep community is fairly small and I don't like seeing someone get screwed - whether it's me or someone else.

I would really appreciate some feedback on the matter, I don't want to have to resort to a PP dispute or anything like that.

Edited May 1, 2012 by bell

[shirotenshi]

If he stated not to be responsible after shipping out, I think the loss should be on your side, of cause he should have the proof of sending it out, receipt with weight destination etc.

Insurance wise, some postal service doesnt offer insurance for watches so it may be the case that he wanted to insure it but couldnt unless he use another (more expensive) shipping method.

Either way, u should discuss with the seller to see what can be done, refund? 50-50? or you eat the losses.

To be fair to both side that is....

Edited May 1, 2012 by ShiroTenshi

[Tom Hawkes]

So usually, this is pretty cut and dry, Paypal will get my money back since the item never arrived.

Nope.

Paypal pretty much doesn't give a crap unless you bought something off the bay. Also if the sender has a receipt they wont help you either. It's not the senders fault that the post office has screwed up.

Also what is insuring a package good for when it contains a rep, something that you aren't allowed to do business with in the first place? Are you going to show the guys at the post office the invoice from your replica dealers site and claim the money? They will have a good laugh.

The whole insuring procedure with reps is good for one thing only: getting a tracking number. Doesn't matter if it is insured for 30$ or 300$ unless you can prove what was in it and that it was legit. At least that's how it works in Europe..

[ExtraExtra]

Depends on what was stated in the listing. Did it say buyer is responsible? If none was stated and neither specified shipping details, both of you are responsible. If you stated shipping details and was not followed, then its sellers responsibility. Hope this helps.

[ubiquitous]

Seller may have listed the declarable value at a lower figure to get the parcel through customs without incident.

Agree with what has been mentioned- The liability of the transaction depends on what was specified in the sales listing regarding responsibilities of parties involved.

[bell]

Nope.

Paypal pretty much doesn't give a crap unless you bought something off the bay. Also if the sender has a receipt they wont help you either. It's not the senders fault that the post office has screwed up.

Also what is insuring a package good for when it contains a rep, something that you aren't allowed to do business with in the first place? Are you going to show the guys at the post office the invoice from your replica dealers site and claim the money? They will have a good laugh.

The whole insuring procedure with reps is good for one thing only: getting a tracking number. Doesn't matter if it is insured for 30$ or 300$ unless you can prove what was in it and that it was legit. At least that's how it works in Europe..

Actually, for insurance the post office in Canada doesn't give a rats ass what the item is because you pay a premium for it.

If you want to insure a pebble for $1000, you can.... No need to prove any worth once it's lost.

I've shipped out a t-shirt and had it insured for $100 (The maximum "free" insurable amount).

And Paypal refunded that customer with the turbo I sent out - I sold it over a car forum not ebay, and I had tracking number showing no delivery or signature. They side with the buyer because, as previously stated, they assumed I got some sort of coverage in case of loss (which I did), so I'll get my refund.

The fact that the watch was indeed insured for $30 means he could purchase more if he wanted to... It's insurance for an item, they don't usually care what it is and you don't have to prove it since usually if you need to use the insurance it means the item is lost or destroyed.

Anyway, I'm going to wait a bit and send the seller a message, $200 isn't going to break me - But you can be damn sure I'll be honest in my review of the seller and say I never received the watch nor any compromise if I'm going to eat the entire amount....

And honestly, if the rule is that all a seller has to do is write "buyer responsible once it leaves my hands" and be scott free of any responsibilty, trust me - This is a nice wide open door to start scamming people.... All one would need to do is send out a pre-ripped envelope with the correct address, and when the post office holds it thinking the package got damaged under their care, "well too bad buddy! Money is mine!"

lol

EDIT - Also forgot to mention, I called and emailed the post office, and they were very insistent that I can't do a damn thing since I'm the receiver.... The sender would need to open a case, which he did.

I tried calling the post office again with the case number, I was told the same thing - I have no control over this only the sender does....

Edited May 2, 2012 by bell

[hiker01]

And honestly, if the rule is that all a seller has to do is write "buyer responsible once it leaves my hands" and be scott free of any responsibilty, trust me - This is a nice wide open door to start scamming people.... All one would need to do is send out a pre-ripped envelope with the correct address, and when the post office holds it thinking the package got damaged under their care, "well too bad buddy! Money is mine!"

lol

Not a good idea. If you want to stay here for awhile.......that's not how we do things at RWG. I've been here awhile and when I sell anything here, I always state "Shipping problems; i.e. damage, lost or otherwise, are at buyers Risk!" If you don't accept the risk, you tell me and the deal is off! Hope that helps.

[bell]

Not a good idea. If you want to stay here for awhile.......that's not how we do things at RWG. I've been here awhile and when I sell anything here, I always state "Shipping problems; i.e. damage, lost or otherwise, are at buyers Risk!" If you don't accept the risk, you tell me and the deal is off! Hope that helps.

I guess so, well guess it's a $200 lesson for me.

[woof*]

Can you give us a link to the original sale?

[shirotenshi]

Actually, for insurance the post office in Canada doesn't give a rats ass what the item is because you pay a premium for it.

If you want to insure a pebble for $1000, you can.... No need to prove any worth once it's lost.

I've shipped out a t-shirt and had it insured for $100 (The maximum "free" insurable amount).

And Paypal refunded that customer with the turbo I sent out - I sold it over a car forum not ebay, and I had tracking number showing no delivery or signature. They side with the buyer because, as previously stated, they assumed I got some sort of coverage in case of loss (which I did), so I'll get my refund.

The fact that the watch was indeed insured for $30 means he could purchase more if he wanted to... It's insurance for an item, they don't usually care what it is and you don't have to prove it since usually if you need to use the insurance it means the item is lost or destroyed.

Anyway, I'm going to wait a bit and send the seller a message, $200 isn't going to break me - But you can be damn sure I'll be honest in my review of the seller and say I never received the watch nor any compromise if I'm going to eat the entire amount....

And honestly, if the rule is that all a seller has to do is write "buyer responsible once it leaves my hands" and be scott free of any responsibilty, trust me - This is a nice wide open door to start scamming people.... All one would need to do is send out a pre-ripped envelope with the correct address, and when the post office holds it thinking the package got damaged under their care, "well too bad buddy! Money is mine!"

lol

EDIT - Also forgot to mention, I called and emailed the post office, and they were very insistent that I can't do a damn thing since I'm the receiver.... The sender would need to open a case, which he did.

I tried calling the post office again with the case number, I was told the same thing - I have no control over this only the sender does....

Post office in different countries have different policies. Mine does require the original invoice of the item for the insurance claim, and doesnt insure jewellery.

As for the disclaimer part, its the sellers' way to protect themselves, buyers could be potential scammers too if they received it and claim the item is broken, or item in it stolen, when not.

There's why we often say to "buy the seller before the watch", TD would be the best alternative otherwise.

Either way, I hope something can be worked out between u and the seller here, since it looks like no one is at fault here except the postal service.

Good Luck!

[Ronin]

When I ship something, I go overboard with photo and video documentation right up to the point I hand the package over to the post. It is at this point, where my responsibility ends, and I generally say so in a deal.

In the past, I have had mail mis-haps (a postal rep Daytona theft) where we (buyer/seller) kinda-sorta split the difference because we are cool/friends, and like good karma. YMMV.

This is why it is import to define your sales terms as a seller, and as a buyer know said terms.

[Dave123]

I think this is why i gave away more watches than i sold,and i never bought outside of dealers,unless it was for charitable reasons,dont need to get into this kinda BS. The savings over dealers that guaranteed my delivery was always minimal and not worth it.

Buddy,rep buyers are always looking for a deal and shipping a value of $30 is something alot of sellers do so that the buyer doesnt have to pay customs fee's. Claiming the item "used auto. movement" or something generic instead of "fake watch" or things like this.

In the end,this s hits not insured and a buyer could be sporting the watch while grumbling that he didnt get it and wants his money back,this s hits on the seller.

Reminds me of when i sold my RWG watch,i bought it in a charity thing here to help a guy out,later sold it,shipped it to AUS from here in Canada,he said he didnt get it,i refunded him. I bought it twice.

All you can do is hope both sides are level headed and can work things out via pm.

Buying and selling on these forums are "beware" on both ends. Good luck to both involved,i hope you learn something.

[woof*]

I'd still like to see the original sales ad. I'm thinking op bought the watch from another country and the seller covered himself.

Op probably agreed to those terms and now it's sour grapes.

I hate to see anyone lose a watch and I feel sorry when it happens. I got burned on a deal awhile back, but I did my homework first and knew the seller was a stand up guy. In the end we split it, he was a good guy. I hope Op can get some resolve and not be put off by this experience.

[FxrAndy]

Okay, so I'll try and keep this short.

I purchased a watch from a member of another forum, payment via paypal.

Not being nasty or any thing if you bought on another forum why are we talking about it here?

Do we get the link to the original sale?

Is the other party a member here?

What is the other forum and what is your name there?

Is there a post about this on the original forum?

[bell]

http://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/omega-planet-ocean-97428.html?t=97428

That's the link.

As everyone pointed out previously, he did indeed state As usual buyer takes custom and shipping risks

And before you start acting border line "E-thug" on me, reason I didn't post it on that forum is because - as I said in my OP - I just want some feedback.... Same reason I won't discuss a problem employee/client in FRONT of said person - I'll have a discussion with my peers and decide what possible course of actions could be taken.

As far as I know he isn't a member on this forum, and it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what my name on RWI is.

Only problem I have is there's a slight lack of common sense here.

Read the following letter I received after calling the post office 3 times, maybe it'll give you some insight:

If you need some help, read the second paragraph - Multiple times if needed.

I contacted the post office again today, with the case number I received from the seller and was told it doesn't work in their system, they have no updates, and that I can't really do anything at this point except wait for the sender to take action.

I basically have no control over what happens now, just as I had no control over what shipping method was used, or how the package was wrapped - The seller did.

If he would've offered a better shipping method for $20-$30 more, I would've taken it, just like I do with all my purchases from TD's - But I had no input in it.

So now if the seller decides not to call his post office, sit on his hands and say "f*ck it, why follow through with an investigation? I got my money!" - It is of course, 100% without a doubt my fault according to everyone here. Makes perfect sense.

Honestly, if you can't see how ignorant it is to adamantly think that a sellers responsibility ends entirely once it leaves his hands, well I don't know what to say.... I know I've shipped a lot of automotive items in my time, and I followed through 100% if there was any problem with my carrier. I also know the seller had some feedback, but besides that, I don't know him from a hole in the wall, just like none of you know me.

Anyway, I sent him a PM yesterday, and asked him politely to call his post office because nothing is really getting done and it won't unless he calls them.

Guess We'll see what happens.

[TimeStopper45]

The fair thing to do would be to split the cost (issue you a 50% refund) since neither of you are getting the watch

[woof*]

Bell,

Sorry your in this situation, But there may still be help for you.

The first thing to do when you have a problem with a sale is to contact the moderators at the forum you bought the watch. That's number one.

Before you post about an issue contact the mods.

They have the ability to pressure the seller and often get good results.

Never involve Paypal unless the mods tell you to. No one wants undo attention to our hobby. We are dealing in grey area items and in some cases illegal. We are not dealing in common products like a turbo.

Having said that, your seller is a noob with recent join date and low post count in a foreign country, that in itself is risky. He does have 4 or 5 positive feedbacks, but I would have passed.

He has been online on the forum yesterday and today..that's a good thing and the mods will be able to find him since he seems to be ignoring you.

So contact them, present your case and see what they can do. you might get a pleasant surprise.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[Tom Hawkes]

I just want some feedback.... I'll have a discussion with my peers and decide what possible course of actions could be taken.

Oh, so you want a discussion?

Only problem I have is there's a slight lack of common sense here.

Oh, so you don't want a discussion, but hear from everyone how you did the right thing?

I basically have no control over what happens now, just as I had no control over what shipping method was used, or how the package was wrapped - The seller did.

If he would've offered a better shipping method for $20-$30 more, I would've taken it, just like I do with all my purchases from TD's - But I had no input in it.

Oh, so during the usual back and forth of PMs while making a buy, you couldn't have said "Listen buddy, please send it like this and that; I'm going to pay extra"?

Honestly, if you can't see how ignorant it is to adamantly think that a sellers responsibility ends entirely once it leaves his hands, well I don't know what to say....

Oh, so it was clearly stated and agreed upon, but everyone else is ignorant?

If he pays you anything back, wow, what a nice guy. If not, well you're out of luck again. How can you expect every seller on this earth to be responsible for the package after it has been sent out?

[ExtraExtra]

Certainly a lot of time and effort now in reacting to what happened. Still points to what was agreed or discussed in the shipping details. You will find in most if not all of sale listing, buyer is responsible for their own country's customs and duty. You can pretty much get the sense from the responses that this is the case. If no details (declare value, shipping type, how to pack etc) were agreed by you and the seller, then both of you responsible. So your best route is to settle this with the seller.

[bell]

Bell,

Sorry your in this situation, But there may still be help for you.

The first thing to do when you have a problem with a sale is to contact the moderators at the forum you bought the watch. That's number one.

Before you post about an issue contact the mods.

They have the ability to pressure the seller and often get good results.

Never involve Paypal unless the mods tell you to. No one wants undo attention to our hobby. We are dealing in grey area items and in some cases illegal. We are not dealing in common products like a turbo.

Having said that, your seller is a noob with recent join date and low post count in a foreign country, that in itself is risky. He does have 4 or 5 positive feedbacks, but I would have passed.

He has been online on the forum yesterday and today..that's a good thing and the mods will be able to find him since he seems to be ignoring you.

So contact them, present your case and see what they can do. you might get a pleasant surprise.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Woof*,

Thank you for actually taking the time to read what I wrote, and respond as an adult.

This is basically what I needed to know, I thought of using PP as a motivator for action, but I didn't consider getting the mods to help.... Its the first private purchase I made, it's going to be back to the TD's after this.

I'm going to contact the post office again in a week, and if it's still MIA, I'll ask him what he wants to do.

Thanks again.

[woof*]

Good,

Although you might feel attacked, most of the previous were actually trying to help.

The first thing to do when a private sale goes wrong is to alert the moderators. They have the power to make life miserable for the seller in various ways As I said, we are dealing with somewhat nefarious items. If we involve PayPal it could turn into the same situation as guns. PayPal is anti and will make your life hell if you get caught selling guns through them. Most of our dealers that use PayPal really need it and if they get banned from PayPal it could get really inconvenient buying reps. We also don't wear our reps into AD's for similar reasons.. we are trying to enjoy our hobby by staying under the radar.

Anyway...get those mods on it and see what they can do. Hopefully they can help get this resolved.

Welcome to the forum, there's tons of info here, in fact there's more real knowledge here than anywhere else...and lots of great members

[Watchmeister]

Unfortunately there is no dilemma on your side. It is on his. His listing is clear as day. He lives in one country and anyone buying outside that country takes the risk. You can't blame him for insuring it for $30 if you didn't tell him to do otherwise. He is not a mindreader and most people list watches for less than the actual value for lots of reasons - trying to fly under the radar screen to avoid seizure, avoiding VAT or whatever. In that situation, if I were the seller, I would probably offer to split the loss with you but he has no obligation. And no mod is going to rake him over the coals, He didn't do anything wrong,. Not what you want to hear but......take away the appropriate moral of the story. Think long and hard before buying from another country and if you dobuy from someone who is experienced as well.

[thepolack]

i haven't really made any buy for watche ... but i am looking and seaarching for the goods and bads

after reading this i gotta say that i dont see why bell should be responsible for anything the fault is on the sellers end, he probably didn't do something right or maybe even try scamming bell, who knows, but i dont want to pay for something i never got to play with, 'now wha i mean.

but i know tha when i buy product online the seller is responsible for all shipping, i bougth a phone online and the mail man left it at my door and someone stole it, the company told me i get a refund or another phone.

just saying that as im buying my reponsbile is payin tats all

[Tom Hawkes]

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