txcollector Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Nah, they're reps alright. The gen part stuff is made up by the dealers to sell more of them. Essentially they were made to be sold as gens on the grey market, but they figured they wouldn't hold up, so they sold them to us. This happens once in a while (18k Franck Mullers f.e.), but generally, if they're good enough, why sell them as a rep? (From their point of view) They are extremely nice though and of very high quality, I used to own one the 1500$ Santos. This. We usually don't get to see those. A number of OOR serials are made this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig88 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Most of the cheap rep sites display gens so I guess he will try make you believe that it is 1:1... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjjoyce1 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 What about those "geneva grade" rep rolex? From what i gather these watches are built in gold (14K?) and have Swiss movements. They pop up once and a while on marktplaats (dutch Craigslist) and cost about 2000 euros. Most of them are daytona's.... On a similar note, wasn't there a big controversy not long ago involving the outsourced supplier of gold Daytona cases? They made more cases than they gave to Rolex and sold them. Because they actually where to the same specs and all they're indistinguishable, so now Rolex only makes in-house cases? Someone refresh me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slask111 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Seems the link www.fv-skialpin.de/db_pics/1/grade1truths.pdf is invalid. I would like to read about the "truth" Anyway that dude seems to be missing a screw. Or we are. Maybe we are living in a bubble? Maybe there is better reps at the unknown dealers that sell 800$ 48 jewels swizz rolex. Are we all fooled? Maybe not. But then again. We look at out td`s pages and believe that they have the best reps. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) To me the key word is 'Rep' ... To me the definition is a watch which has been built from parts to replicate a genuine version of the watch... to that end you could argue that in some respect a rep with a gen swiss is not actually a rep in the truest sense... so at what point do you draw the line to define a rep... Is it the case, dial, hands, etc or is it the manufacturer in terms of him not being the official manufacturer or its representative... or perhaps a combination of both .... that line could be drawn in many different places depending on the individuals POV. Tx is correct... I have seen these gensteins which are to all intent and purpose a genuine watch (many made with completely gen parts or using parts supplied by the original makers/subcontractors of the actual marque except that they were not an authorised product.... so does that make them a rep? or an unauthorised issue of the watch.... This trade is generally at the higher end of the watch market sort of $35000 upwards.... its this level that makes it worth it though I have seen lesser values in the same way... Any bet set out like this is either total BS or a matter of semantics.... either way its not worth your time or consideration at any amount... In terms of say a PAM you could argue and many have that the 5218/218a is a rep.... it was made totally of genuine parts by actual employees of OP however it was not fully authorised or officially released through Cartier who owned OP at that time... Indeed after OP semi collapsed during that take over period in '96 many parts went walkies and ex-employees and employees built there own models using all those parts some with boxes papers etc some hybrids of models some copying actual models.... these can still be bought as genuine watches and were bought as genuine watches especially in the few years after OP reestablished itself.. even OP dont have records of what exactly happened to many parts etc at this time and openly admit it... indeed for many years after the take over employees were finding all sorts of old stock from OP dating back many many years... As an afterthought.... whats 1:1 mean even gens aint exactly 1:1 .... surely gens are considered in terms of consistency in quality and overall looks not being exactly the same as each other... again its a POV and a subjective test... blah blah!! Edited July 5, 2012 by PeteM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 To me the key word is 'Rep' ... To me the definition is a watch which has been built from parts to replicate a genuine version of the watch... to that end you could argue that in some respect a rep with a gen swiss is not actually a rep in the truest sense... so at what point do you draw the line to define a rep... Is it the case, dial, hands, etc or is it the manufacturer in terms of him not being the official manufacturer or its representative... or perhaps a combination of both .... that line could be drawn in many different places depending on the individuals POV. Tx is correct... I have seen these gensteins which are to all intent and purpose a genuine watch (many made with completely gen parts or using parts supplied by the original makers/subcontractors of the actual marque except that they were not an authorised product.... so does that make them a rep? or an unauthorised issue of the watch.... This trade is generally at the higher end of the watch market sort of $35000 upwards.... its this level that makes it worth it though I have seen lesser values in the same way... This is good distinction. The rep market is designed to build pieces that cost 10% of less of the original. The gray market deals with prices that range from 40-50% of the gen. The materials, suppliers, etc are all chosen with the intent to fool even ADs (that goes for papers, etc. and the use of OOR to avoid issues with serial number databases). The base cost of a rep should be in the low hundreds and these gray market watches start at $1000 in parts and labor. Those are still not official products and enjoy no warranty from the manufacturer but if you build a Cartier Santos with gen like parts and the right stamped movement Cartier will take your $800 and do the service. They wouldn't do it with the current batch of reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Actually if the other guy thinks you are good for the money he should go buy a gen, win the bet and collect your money and pocket the difference. In the 1:1 reps I have seen a few of the 1:1 $10k gold reps made for the Middle East a number of years ago. They would probably trick the AD but not you or the service center. And back in the day before reps went large scale even one or two of our dealers (who shall remain nameless) even did some of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerthat Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 I think everyone is giving this guy too much credit He probably bought a rep on a scam site claiming Swiss made and believes it because he read it on a website The watch he has is probably identical to one sold by a TD here only difference is the cost was 3x more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 I think everyone is giving this guy too much credit He probably bought a rep on a scam site claiming Swiss made and believes it because he read it on a website The watch he has is probably identical to one sold by a TD here only difference is the cost was 3x more one thing is for sure, you don't get these gray market pieces out of some rep website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackpack Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Is it one of those markets that enthusiasts could never dream of getting into? I realize there is no web site for it, but is it near impossible to find these pieces, or are there members here that get to enjoy such reps? I always thought the Br03-88 was one of these reps made to deceive since its only sold with all the packaging, I kind of hope that more of these reps start to pop up, I know there not for everyone, they are quite costly but the br03-88 rep for example is a great watch for the money because its so close to the real thing it might as well be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porschespeedster Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Interesting discussion, and one i've never heard of on an internet forum, only in person with others. Of course grey market watches exist and are sold as gens, they are gens using gen parts. People doing this are sinking hundreds of thousands of $$$$ into mainly the Hublots, APs etc. and selling them on the grey market as real/gen because they are. This is why so many 'super reps' blah blah blah of the Ice Bang Blu Bang AP Royal Super Mega Offwhore etc whatever exist... the toolings/moulds for the cases/dials etc are re-used in many instances after the sources of the actual gen movements etc dry up. that upper echelon of new gen watches (10k up to 100k or whatever) is full of a lot of markup. people with money are exploiting that markup and making DIY versions of these gens for 5k or so. not even really news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 You need to be careful of the term 'Grey Market'.... as in the watch trade 'grey Market' is similar to car trading from main dealers.. Many watch dealers hold a franchise license to sell the genuine watches these are issued by the marques themselves and are subject to the usual sort of regulations such as presentation rules, positioning in windows etc etc but most importantly meeting sales targets... if these targets are not met then the marque will rescind the license to sell... Therefore many of these ADs sell the gens out the back door to 'traders' we shall call them as an example.. thats a big reason you see many gens being sold with blank warranty cards... stamped by the dealer but not filled in... That way the ADs hit their sales targets but dont make thier profit on the watch if sold off RRP hence these watches can be sold in large quantities by ADs... so a trader would get a call and be told he can buy 4x Rolex SSDs 3xPAMs, 2x Breitlings, etc etc but he must buy the lot... regardless of whether the models are popular in return the trader will get a substantial cost reduction.. As I said its a bit like the main car dealers sometimes the greater value to them is in the overall sales rather than the individual sales... That is referred to as the 'Grey market'... I know a few guys in this game and they make great money but they have to sit on a lot of thier investment for long periods... so cashflow can be pretty irregular ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 PeteM, I applaud you...... Never in a thread have I learned so much since the day I started reading this site.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Frank Mullers staff (or manager, I forget) were pinching parts and building their own watches a few years back.. so I suppose that really counts as a swiss made rep. I'm not quite sure that's what this guy was one about though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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