AP's and the Development of the Franken

[Watchmeister]

I have always been very interested in AP's having gotten my first AP Royal Oak almost 20 years ago. Yes, I am embarassed to admit it was quartz. Before finding the rep forums I bought, enjoyed and sold a couple along the way. It wasn't a very efficient way though as I tended to lose money on each trade. Then I came upon the forums in the early 2000's and the first decent AP rep came - the MBW Jumbo. Of course the ETA movement was not very convincing under the clear case back but the overall dimensions, exterior finish and dial was really very good. Below is a poor pic but the only one I have and you can see it sitting next to my first gen which by the way I still own.

After the Jumbo, MBW then started making seconds at 9 Offshores. The dimensions and aesthetics were great but of course it had the wrong sub-dial functionality. And for those who were obsessed with detail (i.e. correct functionality) the franken was born.

The MBW and First Generation Franken era:

What is interesting is that unlike most watches the first innovative franken did not come from the hobbyists or watchsmiths. It was actually built by MBW themselves in 2008 using their seconds at 9 model. At the time they made a total of 6. They got their hands on a batch of cheap dials and donor watches for the movements. And at the time they sold for either 2500 or 3500 Euro's - a princely sum. Now when they came out we all thought that they did a limited run of special cases, used gen dials and tachy rings, hands, etc. With 20/20 hindsight the beauty of using that watch was that it had dimensions much closer to gen since you were able to use a thinner standard 7750 model. The construction was nowhere near gen in terms of design but aesthetically it was closer to gen than the current seconds at 12 models. Here is an original offering pic:

Here are pics of the original case when I got it. The construction may have been wrong but the dimensions were so much better than our current seconds at 12:

On my end my first opportunity to try my hand at a franken came when one of the original MBW buyers screwed up his movement and sold off the watch in parts. I bought them. And what we found was that there was no limited run of cases - it was their standard case plugged and redrilled. Then we saw the hands were the rep ones with the hand tubes crudely closed to jam them on the much smaller 2892 pinions. Today we regard the larger hand tubes as one of the critical tells (the hole in a 7750 hand tube is bigger than the entire hand tube on a 2892). We also found out that the tachy ring was rep as the gen wouldn't possibly fit in the MBW bezel. So with a minimum of parts (gen dial (no tachy ring) and LWO 283 movement) a Franken could be recreated by a watchsmith with the proper skills. And thus the franken era began. On my end my first one was a rebuild of the original MBW with a new working movement and here it is:

And now we knew that all you needed was the MBW watch, an LWO 283 movement and dial which matched up with the MBW tachy ring - and most importantly a skilled watchsmith. As a result an entire build was almost reasonable - unlike today. Here is one of my early "seconds at 9" builds:

Back then I and one or two others built and sold a few to close friends based on whatever dials came up.

And then came the seconds at 12 we all know today. Of course they had the correct functionality but the tradeoff was the thicker amended 7750 adding extra gears, etc. which required reproportioning the whole watch with thicker caseback, mid-case and bezel. As many know it does a great job of making a great rep but in larger proportion . One could say that the size difference is de-minimus as the whole watch jumped only 4mm from 13mm on the gen and MBW to 17mm on the new one. But proportionately we are talking about a 30% increase in height. I do have to say that it is a marvel though with the same functionality as gen and incredibly close gen construction later.

The Second Generation of Seconds at 12 AP Frankens

With the coming of the Seconds at 12 (and it's close to gen construction) now there was a theoretically better base for frankens where the gen tachy ring could be added.but the bar had to be lifted. The whole case needed a diet and a better movement ring had to be made. And as time has progressed over the last couple of years.improvements have included improved custom movement rings, lowering of the height and reconfiguring of the inside of the bezel (to fit the gen tachy ring) and of course the slimming of the caseback and even mid-case. Hobbyists and watchsmiths like Francisco, Sander, Loosetime and Ziggy all continually raised the bar further. I am sure some of these names ring a bell.

Today these frankens can take virtually all gens parts - dials, tachy ring, hands, crown, pushers, crystals and even gaskets. And at least one watchsmith can service the base movement and even the chrono-module. By the way even AP simply replaces the chrono module. We of course don't have that luxury. Here are a couple pics of the last two frankens I own but there are plenty of other pics of the limited number of frankens on the forum.

The Future

Unfortunately it is probably dimmer. AP gen parts are now virtually impossible or prohibitively expensive to purchase so Frankens as we know it may very well never have the same level of "frankeness" but at the same time different folks are now making carbon parts and even cases and folks are even pursuing gen dial projects. So we shall see.

I hope folks have enjoyed my diatribe.

[dluddy]

Awesome historical view Kruz

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[mt666tm]

I love that Ti case blue dial of yours. Is that the same that was posted that the case was just refinished/microblasted?

If an asian movement factory is able to rep the DD chrono module then it stands to reason that a true 1:1 AP rep could be made.

If Noob just slimmed the case/caseback, relocated the crown tube, and updated the datewindow position on the dial, then simply use the A-2892 or the Sellita SW-300 + DD module and we are in business!

[Watchmeister]

That is the same sandblasted case albeit with the original finish when the case was new. Unfortunately I don't see the Asian factories repping the 2892 chrono module movement. It is not used on very many contemporary movements and as for the AP which is one of the last remaining uses it would require a factory going to the trouble to change everything - new dials, tachy rings, modified cases, etc. Hope springs eternal though.

[colorao]

kruz I love this post, thanks by do it !!

[Legend]

W, you're guy I turn to for help when I encounter issues with my frankens and need advice.

This is why. Well done and thank you for the informative posts.

[Jurgenk]

W

Thanks for that very enlightening review of the AP franken story-- fascinating reading and explains a lot of the joys and frustrations of the process-- particularly rewarding and challenging for AP ROO. It's a shame that the game has changed so that parts are so hard to come by, but that may be that the trail you blazed just got too popular.

I've been away from the rep game for a little while but happy to see a lot of familiar people still sharing knowledge and doing what they love

Edited September 26, 2012 by Jurgenk

[Orologiomagico]

Ciao where is possible buy franken ap??

[panerai153]

Ciao where is possible buy franken ap??

Look at the rep sales forums, they come up for sale occasionally, but be prepared to spend big dollars, as it is very expensive to build a true franken sec@ 12 AP.

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[Jordanf1]

Ciao where is possible buy franken ap??

 

With 1 Post on the Forum id say for you Virtually Impossible ...........

[sputim]

Thanks for this interesting historic insight! There is a case project running over at repgeek if I remember correctly that is very promising

[panerai153]

Great post sir. Very informative and enlightening. I do like my AP reps, and would love to own a really nice franken, however I believe those days are past for me. At my age and retirement looming larger and larger, it's hard to justify spending several thousand on a rep. But I do admire them nonetheless.

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[valante]

nice post.

[jpohl402]

(I know it's old)

But I think this may quite possibly be the most interesting & informative thread I've read about our watches to date!!

Thanks a million for sharing

[OSX]

nice short story that tells a lot about the level of passion that has contributed to AP frankens over the years. They are incredibly complex reps... and it takes time, money and dedication to have one built

[Tinitonsi]

Very nice and informative... Thx so much