Mike on a bike Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Ran across this next store , never saw it posted here. Good stuff! Memeber ALE7575 did this great work, all hail! Posted 07 December 2014 - 07:38 PM KW PAM382 Bronze material – Official Chemical AnalysisWe all would like to know the chemical composition of PAM 382 reps bronze material.Therefore in order to get the answer I contacted some months ago with KW owner Mehmet and Puretime’s Angus asking them for case samples of KW and ZFac PAM 382 respectively. In parallel I contacted with official Spanish laboratories trying to get a free but reliable chemical analysis of the samples. KW’s Mehmet was immediately willing to send me the sample when the Laboratory was ready. But it was not able to get ZFac sample, because Puretime told me that he had already sent a sample from ZFac to another member (Pete M) in order to make the same official analysis as I wanted.In August 2014 I got, through a friend of mine (an engineer colleague), the possibility of a free chemical analysis from a first class Official Spanish Laboratory. I ask Mehmet for the sample and in some days I received the sample of KW PAM 382 case from Kuvarsit.The sample was an unfinished KW PAM 382 case before machining, taken directly from the current production as I asked to KW. You can see the sample received in below pic.SAMPLE OF KW PAM 382 CASE BEFORE MACHININGAt that moment my fried was just starting his summer vacation and I had to wait until the end of September to send him the samplesIn October my friend got the sample to start the chemical analysis of the bronze. I have the results from about 20 October, but I have not found time to prepare this thread until this moment. TECHNIQUE OF ANALYSISI wanted to get a chemical analysis by an Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometer, because that was the analysis method I was used to using when I worked in metal alloys. But my friend told me he liked to use a more modern system. It was used one of the most modern, reliable and precise techniques available at this moment: Scanning Electron Microscopy (SEM)See below link for more info:http://serc.carleton...niques/SEM.htmlhttp://www.labtestin...g/sem-analysis/To get an idea about the sophistication of this method, you should know that the cost of the equipment to make this kind of analysis is about 3 million Euros.Of course SEM is a very reliable method of chemical analysis and there is no doubt about the precision of the results.PREPARATION OF THE SAMPLEIt was necessary to cut a part of the case to make the analysis. The Laboratory cut a lug of the case to prepare the final sample to be analyzed. This lug was slightly polished to be introduced in the SEM device. You can see in below pics the lug detached and prepared.SAMPLE OF KW PAM 382 CASE WITH THE LUG DETACHED AND PREPARED TO BE INTRODUCED IN THE SEM ELECTRON MICOSCOPETHE RESULTSIn the figure below showed you can see the results of the chemical analysis extracted from the SEM Electron Microscope.The square marked in yellow is the chemical composition in Weight%, which is the composition we were looking for.CONCLUSIONSAs we can see from above Figure the bronze of the sample KW PAM 382 studied has a chemical composition about as follows:Cu (Copper)- 93%Sn (Tin)- 6%Zn (Zinc)- 1% Therefore, KW bronze is not exactly a CuSn8 like gen, but it is very close to this material. Mainly we can state without doubts that KW bronze is a TRUE BRONZE (it is not at all a Brass, as many people have commented)I have knowledge about this matter because I have worked many years (many time ago) producing Bronzes and Brass and another alloys.KW bronze is actually a CuSn6Zn1 bronze. It is really very similar to CuSn8 and the colour and properties are almost identical to gen bronze.In below Figure you can see the differences between a gen bronze CuSn8 and the CuSn6Zn1 and KW bronze.As you can see differences are a little less content of SN, but a bit more of Zn (less than 1%). Differences between KW bronze and CuSn6Zn1 are almost non existent. Indeed both are the same material.In practice and bearing in mind the application in a watch case, we can say the materials are actually equivalents. In other words: We can expect from KW bronze the same properties and behaviour regarding appearance and patina creation that we will get from Gen bronze PAM 382Besides, as you can see from the chemical analysis, KW bronze has no impurities. That means that this alloy is made from almost pure metals and using no recycling materials. Therefore KW bronze used in KW PAM 382 is a very good quality alloy.To get a better idea of above statements, you should know that we are using Stainless Steels for super reps much more different from the gen SS than the differences observed between CuSn8 and CuSn6Zn1.To illustrate this matter read my thread about Stainless Steels in watches:SS 316L vs. 316F vs. 904L- The final VERDICT- A technical study http://www.replica-w...ead.php?t=82263As you can see in above thread the differences between SS 316L and 316F and mainly with SS 904L used by Rolex are way bigger than differences found between CuSn8 and CuSn8Zn1.See below figure where the differences of three SS are showed and compare these differences with the bronzes table differences.Despite above showed differences of composition, we are using SS 316L in some watches made of SS 316F and vice versa. And we are always using either PAM 316L or PAM 316F to make the super reps of Rolex, which the gens are made of a very different SS 904L as you can see in above table.Being the KW sample unfinished and not machined, polished or brushed I was not able to make a reliable comparison between the KW sample and the bronze of my KK PAM 382 V1 from May 2014. But cleaning and brushing a little the surface of the sample, and using my experience in these alloys, I would say that my KW PAM 382 V1 and the sample are made form the same material (it is almost impossible to get a reliable comparison by pics, because some pics seem identical and other different, just a direct visual comparison can show the materials are very close in appearance)Unfortunately we have not the same analysis of ZFac bronze. Some people is saying, and some reviewers and reviews (remember NCcheff reviews http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=234018 & http://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=187564 ) that ZFac material is more reddish than KW bronze. From the pics I have seen, I have to agree with these observations. That just means that ZFac material, most likely, has higher content of Copper (Cu) and less Tin (Sn) and other elements, what goes against the quality and properties of the bronze alloy and detaches Zfac bronze from the gen. But that is just a speculation from pics and comments.Anyway, forget the colour on the pics, the false comparisons, the patinas, the speculations… Now we know what we are actually getting when we buy a KW PAM 382: a true bronze CuSn6Zn1 of very high quality, from which we can expect the same colour, properties and behaviour than a gen CuSn8 bronze*************************************************I would like taking this opportunity to say many thanks to KW’s owner Mehmet for being so kind (and even brave, why not to say it) sending me the sample of the KW case to make the analysis, and congratulations to KW for the good results of this chemical analysis. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rower Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Wow, that was fantastic! You gave me a front seat for todays Chemistry class. Well done! This should be a sticky. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helldiver Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Thank you very much Mike for sharing the info. Totally missed it where you found it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Thanks Mike for the info. I agree with rower, this should be stickied. Sent from Mars using tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightwatch Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Thanks Mike and Ale, great info and research:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppen Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 +1 on this being a sticky. Threads like this make the community great. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted March 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 OK guys saved it to sticky so we can always find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Mike, you're a good guy. Thank you once again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 OK guys saved it to sticky so we can always find it. Mike, just a suggestion, perhaps a more relevant place to sticky this would be the PAM section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Repfreak83 Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 This is nuts! Great thread though, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pick_br Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Wow that's really involved, a fantastic read, cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassboink Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Seems like the stuff I do at Ohio State studying Chemical Engineering....... But it's so fun to see my kind of work apply in one of the hobbies I enjoy you made my day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Awesome analysis ! i would like to add some of my bronze ownership experience with a genuine bronzo.in the middle transition phase of patina from new (let's say 3-4 months) of natural wear, perspiration, salt water air but no submerging of any type of water... The watch turned a reddish copper color and the polished plots on the bezel had a blue/purple hue and look to them. Now about a year later. Same wear not in water of any kind but on the beach about 4x a week, it's much darker and yellow instead of reddish.what do you gather from this besides constant change and patina, which is a natural occurrence? I guess the reason I bring this up is because I had at one point a very red bronze tone with the genuine cusn8all the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcardoza Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 PHOTOS!!!!!!!! Where are the photos?????? Awesome analysis ! i would like to add some of my bronze ownership experience with a genuine bronzo.in the middle transition phase of patina from new (let's say 3-4 months) of natural wear, perspiration, salt water air but no submerging of any type of water... The watch turned a reddish copper color and the polished plots on the bezel had a blue/purple hue and look to them. Now about a year later. Same wear not in water of any kind but on the beach about 4x a week, it's much darker and yellow instead of reddish.what do you gather from this besides constant change and patina, which is a natural occurrence? I guess the reason I bring this up is because I had at one point a very red bronze tone with the genuine cusn8all the best 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted August 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 +1 Pics!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Okay, here we go. First set of pics were from new and few weeks after wearing it just about every day.Here is a shot with my RG 44... When new the bronzo has a rose gold tone and look... Next set, first two a month in starting to darken.. but still shiny About 3-4 months in Edited August 19, 2015 by MJC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 About 5-6 months inNext to a fresh bronze buckle, not sure what kind of bronze content as it doesn't look like my bronze case now with patina. Its lighter The reddish tone it took on as I said, I loved loved loved this look !!!!!!! When it started turning yellow which I'm unsure why. I think the flash accentuated that tone, but still, in bright sunlight it had a yellow mustardy look which was strange. This may be because I was with the watch up north in NYC away from the salt water air in Florida where the watch was every day?This was about just over a week ago and recently how its been looking. Getting green but not nasty verdigris. This is 100% all original my wear, no water of any kind except perspiration every day lol. Ive had the watch since January.Today, no sunlight. Looks very dark without direct sunLastly, my favorite look for my bronzo. Wish I could keep it like this all of the time, however, I do love seeing the changes. Its a special watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcardoza Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 G O R G E O U S !!!!!!!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 G O R G E O U S !!!!!!!!!!Thanks !!!!So where is Mikes assessment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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