Eta Movements - How Rare Are They?

[tvt]

>>>Other than this one measly comment, I think TVT did a fantastic job, kept his composure and covered it all in wonderful detail.

<<<

Glad I got it right though just to clarify one thing The Zigmeister, I was NOT the one who said the apparently incorrect statement that no gold ETA movements come from Switzerland, that was someone else. What I said was that the RUMOR is and that most people seem to think that the gold movements are from Asian ETA plants while the silver ones are from Switzerland. HOWEVER I also said that this has never been confirmed. If there is one thing I have learned in my years of dealing with this hobby is that VERY few people actually know what they are talking about on ANY level. Most people (and I admit I have been guilty of this as well) simply read something and then parrot it back as fact. So somewhere alomg the line someone wrote that gold=Asian ETA and silver = Swiss ETA, and since then it has been repeated so many times that it has almost become fact.

I do not work for ETA, I have never inspected Swiss or Asian ETA facilities so I have NO CLUE what the truth is. I do know that almost all the fakes we see have GOLD ETA movements and I SUSPECT that they come from Asia simply because I think it would be much easier for the Asian makers to get movements from within Asia as oppossed top Switzerland, especially at the volume we are talking about.

I am not sure that it really matters if a genuine ETA movement is made is China or Switzerland but I must say it is likely misleading for dealeras to continue to call them "SWISS" when in fact they probably are not. Simply calling them "ETA" sends the same point that it is a quality and genuine movement, no need to through in a possibly inaccurate point of origin. "Swiss" has become some sort of sign of quality among the dealers. By saying "Swiss" you are in essence saying "genuine". "Swiss ETA" equals "GENUINE ETA". ell I just assume drop the damn "Swiss" crap as it is inaccurate and ultimatley meaningless.

Finally I am glad you modified your lisat comments by saying that the "Seagull" copy of the 2892 was the exception to the rule because those movements are COMMONLY sold as genuien ETA and they simply are NOT. I feel that I have been misled in the past by a very well known and respected dealer whom I have purchased many watches from. He sold me a copy of the 2892 and I was told it was genuine... and paid more for it. Today it does not work or works in a very sportatic nature. So it is a cloudy market place. ETA means ETA unless you are talking about the 2892. Swiss means genuine and not really from Switzerland unless you are talking about a "Genuine Swiss 7750" in which case it IS swiss and so on. VERY confusing and needlessly so.

[HauteHippie]

if it's sold as an ETA - then it's an ETA...no question about it. Where it's made? who cares and what does it matter, Swiss made or not, if it's an ETA that is all that matters...

Nuff said.

[Devedander]

I get the feeling that "ETA" is becomming more broadly excepted as "not asian 21j or quartz" instead of meaning what it actually says...

And I can see both sides of it in that, as long as it works, what does it really matter, these are all reps anyway - as well as the other side which is be honest with me about the details even if you don't think they are important, especially if that details can cause an increase in price...

It's just a slippery slope kind of thing... I never like slippery slopes... would we put up with it if an ebay dealer sold a rep as "Gen Omega with replaced third party movement" for $400? No... it wouldn't matter that that's not a particularly bad price for a rep with a nice working movement or that someone who knows a lot would be able to spot telltale signs of what it really is or that it's a decent value or whatnot... we would be all over him for missrepresenting even though in the end, it all works out to a fair value.

One reason I think bears keeping in mind is that often people pay extra for the ETA model because parts and skill to replace or repair it should be readily available later on... I would think this might be undermined in receiving a copy movement that mimicks the functionality but not the actual parts/layout.

[RWG Technical]

Glad I got it right though just to clarify one thing Ziggy, I was NOT the one who said the apparently incorrect statement that no gold ETA movements come from Switzerland, that was someone else.

That was tourbillon that said that, I quoted him and his name in in the quote... sorry if there was confusion...

Finally I am glad you modified your lisat comments by saying that the "Seagull" copy of the 2892 was the exception to the rule because those movements are COMMONLY sold as genuien ETA and they simply are NOT. I feel that I have been misled in the past by a very well known and respected dealer whom I have purchased many watches from. He sold me a copy of the 2892 and I was told it was genuine... and paid more for it. Today it does not work or works in a very sportatic nature.

I have 2 TWO watches with the copy movement, both sold and advertised as having ETA2892's in them, your not alone as being mislead... Mine both quit, like yours did, they are crap.

On my 007 original version (which came with the Seagull), I replaced it with a ETA 2892, the other one is scrapped out.

Even today, looking at the offerings, I still see the Seagull advertized as ETA, it isn't and isn't even close...I'll got two paperweight ones if anyone wants to see them...even a Miyota is better than this one...

RG

[tvt]

Sorry for any misundertanding about your quote The Zigmeister, my fault.

As The Zigmeister pointed out he has had issues with the "Seagull" as I have as well and I think MANY others have. I know nothing about the quality of these things but The Zigmeister says they suck and the one I own crapped out with VERY little wear. So here lies the rub and why I cannot buy the "they are just replicas" argument:

i paid extra, a LOT extra because I was told I was buying a genuine ETA 2892 movement. teh entire premise of why the watch was so expensive was because it had a gen movement, a movement which costs hundreds on it's own, a reliable work horse movement which would be easy to repair, in fact the same movement the gen has! OK, great, so I paid for something I did not get, I was flat lied to. This is NOT the same as buying a fake watch KNOWING you are buying a fake. It would be like buying a gen and being ripped off and sent a fake instead.

I do not know if the dealer intentionally lied to me or if he himself did not know but the bottom line is that something was billed as a genuine swiss ETA and with was not genuine, not swiss and not even an ETA.

This STILL bugs the hell out of me as I never would of purchased the thing for the price I paid had I known the movement was fake, and crappy at that. I now have to locate a genuine, spend hundreds more and then have The Zigmeister replace the thing for me at yet additional costs. None of that was advertised when I bought the damn thing.

[Devedander]

I don't think I am alone in saying "If it leaves The Zigmeister with a doorstop, it's absolutely a concern to the rest of us".

While it's not so much the Swiss vs not issue, I still think it falls into the same category... and in general I think more accuracy in description is important.

I know it gets people riled up when someone says this but: The dealers make a hefty profit for their services... I don't think it's too much to ask that their margins include as accurate a description as possible and being heald to it. I mean mistakes happen and things may be overlooked, but something as important as ETA (that can double or triple the price of a watch) I would think warrants attention.

1:1, Light AR, Swiss ETA...

After all, I say again, aren't we here to help each other find out about exactly this kind of thing, not make reasons for why it's ok? I am glad our dealers are as honest as they are, and that we have an alternative to the scam sites listing "Exact 100% identical" reps... but let's not let a slope get started here... who knows how slippery it could get...

[pollux1]

just a small point, and far be it for a noob to join in such a discussion..... can anyone tell me if genuine Swiss ETA movements is more expensive to buy than Asian genuine ETA movements, assuming that all parts and manufacturing processes are the same? ( I'm assuming they are btw )

[Devedander]

just a small point, and far be it for a noob to join in such a discussion..... can anyone tell me if genuine Swiss ETA movements is more expensive to buy than Asian genuine ETA movements, assuming that all parts and manufacturing processes are the same? ( I'm assuming they are btw )

I don't think there is such a thing as a Genuine Asian ETA... ETA is a Swiss company... if it's a Genuine ETA I would think it comes from that company in Switzerland...

[pollux1]

I don't think there is such a thing as a Genuine Asian ETA... ETA is a Swiss company... if it's a Genuine ETA I would think it comes from that company in Switzerland...

I've read here on this board that ETA also has manufacturing plants outside Switzerland, perhaps i'm wrong ( wouldn't be the first time )

[RWG Technical]

ETA has plants in Asia, it's on their web site, www.eta.ch...

RG

[Devedander]

But I thought the company ETA finished/assembled/something or other that allows them to mark them all as swiss made... thus making all Genuine ETA movements technically Swiss...

[pollux1]

But I thought the company ETA finished/assembled/something or other that allows them to mark them all as swiss made... thus making all Genuine ETA movements technically Swiss...

Ergo, if I produced a Seagull movement in Switzerland, I would have the right to call it Swiss. Doesn't this at least in a small way negate the "Swiss" tag?

[fotoman]

But I thought the company ETA finished/assembled/something or other that allows them to mark them all as swiss made... thus making all Genuine ETA movements technically Swiss...

ETA sells movment kits to other watch suppliers - for instance one of the ulysse nardin has a movement based on a 2892 a2 that they buy as a kit and then tweek a little and put together. It is a genuine ETA movement, purchased from them, put together by UN. i don't know the location

the fact that its "swiss made" is just an indication of quality even in the gen world.

If i import a bunch of mexican migrant farm workers to geneve and have them put together watches - its swiss made.

Its really a rediculous indication of quality. I mean if the Gov't of switzerland regulated (no pun intended) watch buillding then there would be an objective standard that "swiss made" would have to follow.

just like "made in america" if it really is, you can be sure they didn't use 11 yr olds and pay them 3 cents an hour.

ITS ALL A BUNCH OF MARKETING BS - and we are the ones that have bought into it - ohh, swiss made, must be fantastic

what if my workbench was made of cheese? would it be swiss made then?

[tvt]

How can we STILL be discussing the Asian ETA thing? in this very thread we have discussed it to death... ETA has plants in Asia and elsewhere and they make genuien ETA movements that are NOT made in Switzerland. Now there has been some debate about them being sent back to Switzerland and so forth but I doubt that our dealers would be getting those and I also think it muddies the waters here. The point we need to know is that it is quite likely that even the genuine ETA movements we get are in fact made in asia. Calling them "Swiss" ETA is confusing and needless, hell, even if they actually came from Switzerkand it is meaningless and ETA is enough. A genuien ETA should be of equal quality regardless of it's origin, as long as it is a legit genuine ETA (not your crap Seagull or the like).

Now in terms of "made isn Switzerland" or "Swiss" not meaning anything as far as the Swiss government in concerned I must disagree.

I DO agree that just because something is made in Switzerland does not mean it is quality. They have plenty of crappy Swiss made products just as any country does, however the Swiss government is EXTREMELY serious about monitoring what can be stamped as "Swiss made" and what is not. Now I cannot tell you off the top of my head the exact percentafge of parts that must originate from Switzerland in order to qualify for that "Swiss" mark but it is the mass majority and the government takes is deadly serious... more seriously than any other country I have read about. This is why I doubt the idea of Asian made ETA movements being sent back to Switerland to be certified or what have you. I am not saying that this is not the case, I really do not know, but simply sending a completed movement to Switerland to have it checked would NOT qualify it to be Swiss made. Even finishing it or what have you would not qualify it. The mass majority of the parts themselves (like 80 or 90 % I think) need to originate in Switzerland to earn that title.

Again, even with that title does not mean it is quality, simply that it was made in the country. So I agree that the idea of "Made in Switzerland" automatically means best quality is a misnomer.

[Devedander]

Ergo, if I produced a Seagull movement in Switzerland, I would have the right to call it Swiss. Doesn't this at least in a small way negate the "Swiss" tag?

It does in the Gen world... I think in the Rep world the Swiss tag is supposed to give a feeling of higher quality (ie actually Swiss) but in the Gen world I believe (and I may be wrong) that regardless of where the plants are that stamp the parts out, all ETA are Swiss made in the same way an item made entirely of parts from Japan but assembled in the US can be Made in USA.

Thus in the Gen world I believe you won't see "Asian ETA" your Swiss ETA might be 95% Asian made and something finished to make it Swiss made, but as far as I know you will never technically come across a Genuine ETA (from the ETA company) that is anything but "Swiss".

The original question being if Genuine Swiss ETA movements would be more expensive than Genuine Asian ETA movements... my thinking is there is no such thing as Genuine Asian ETA movement...

I could be wrong on any of that, but it's what I have in my head from what I have read...

This may have changed since the source was printed...

A watch is defined as Swiss only if it meets three

cumulative requirements: (1) it must contain a Swiss movement,

-4- (2) the movement must have been encased in Switzerland, and (3)

the watch must have undergone final inspection by the

manufacturer in Switzerland.2/ The Swiss statute provides that a

movement is Swiss if at least 50% of the value of all of its

components parts is of Swiss manufacture, and if the movement is

assembled and inspected in Switzerland.

[pollux1]

It does in the Gen world... I think in the Rep world the Swiss tag is supposed to give a feeling of higher quality (ie actually Swiss) but in the Gen world I believe (and I may be wrong) that regardless of where the plants are that stamp the parts out, all ETA are Swiss made in the same way an item made entirely of parts from Japan but assembled in the US can be Made in USA.

Thus in the Gen world I believe you won't see "Asian ETA" your Swiss ETA might be 95% Asian made and something finished to make it Swiss made, but as far as I know you will never technically come across a Genuine ETA (from the ETA company) that is anything but "Swiss".

The original question being if Genuine Swiss ETA movements would be more expensive than Genuine Asian ETA movements... my thinking is there is no such thing as Genuine Asian ETA movement...

I could be wrong on any of that, but it's what I have in my head from what I have read...

@ devedander, didn't ZZ just say that ETA had factories making movements outside Switzerland?

[fotoman]

How can we STILL be discussing the Asian ETA thing? in this very thread we have discussed it to death... ETA has plants in Asia and elsewhere and they make genuien ETA movements that are NOT made in Switzerland. Now there has been some debate about them being sent back to Switzerland and so forth but I doubt that our dealers would be getting those and I also think it muddies the waters here. The point we need to know is that it is quite likely that even the genuine ETA movements we get are in fact made in asia. Calling them "Swiss" ETA is confusing and needless, hell, even if they actually came from Switzerkand it is meaningless and ETA is enough. A genuien ETA should be of equal quality regardless of it's origin, as long as it is a legit genuine ETA (not your crap Seagull or the like).

Now in terms of "made isn Switzerland" or "Swiss" not meaning anything as far as the Swiss government in concerned I must disagree.

I DO agree that just because something is made in Switzerland does not mean it is quality. They have plenty of crappy Swiss made products just as any country does, however the Swiss government is EXTREMELY serious about monitoring what can be stamped as "Swiss made" and what is not. Now I cannot tell you off the top of my head the exact percentafge of parts that must originate from Switzerland in order to qualify for that "Swiss" mark but it is the mass majority and the government takes is deadly serious... more seriously than any other country I have read about. This is why I doubt the idea of Asian made ETA movements being sent back to Switerland to be certified or what have you. I am not saying that this is not the case, I really do not know, but simply sending a completed movement to Switerland to have it checked would NOT qualify it to be Swiss made. Even finishing it or what have you would not qualify it. The mass majority of the parts themselves (like 80 or 90 % I think) need to originate in Switzerland to earn that title.

Again, even with that title does not mean it is quality, simply that it was made in the country. So I agree that the idea of "Made in Switzerland" automatically means best quality is a misnomer.

Ok, i take back the government regulatory comment and put that in the we don't know column

But here is the problem with that - Swiss law only is valid in switzerland. So if i make watches in denmark that say swiss made - then switzerland as far as i can figure has no jurisdiction to stop it.

I just can't see the government of switzerland making a copywrite claim over the words swiss made, if there were some international copywrite law, which i don't believe there is.

now if i wanted to sell them in switzerland, then they might have jurisdiction.

[Devedander]

@ devedander, didn't ZZ just say that ETA had factories making movements outside Switzerland?

He did say they have plants in Asia... and I would take his word over mine.

But I haven't found where it says that on their website (not denying, just haven't found) however I have found that their list of production centers does not list anything in Asia.

Also having production centers that create the entire movement in Asia would defy the "Swiss Made" rule set...

Bear in mind that having plants is not necessarily the same making the movements there... the plants might be responsible only for stamping out some portion of the parts or doing some minor assembly.

[fotoman]

TVT, if i bought a swiss ETA watch and got the crappy segull copy movement, i'd be [censored] and demand my money back.

If i bought a swiss eta watch and got a eta copy that worked just as good as an eta, or was an eta but with some dirt in it, i wouldn't be [censored].

does that make sense?

[bbob]

what's the problem we are talking rep here not the real deal.

Now lets see in real life. You buy a dodge in europa and this one has a vw diesel engine. Should dodge say we sell cars having a vw engine. Eveyone knows but they are not telling you.

You buy a dell laptop which dell does not make but is made in an oem plant that also makes laptops under their own name. Is the quality of these laptops less that the original dell ?

Eta had been able to keep up their brand name. Swiss sell their watches as something unique, hand made, swiss made, non-electronic. Fact is they produce millions of movements and this is just an industrial process. Yes some brand refine the movements but lots just use standard movement. Hence some swiss made watches will probably use asia made eta movement.

You are buying a watch which is rep watch but more important it's a lifestyle or image. Sure you can buy watches just because they use a certain movement but we are talking high prices here.

Should a dealer mention swiss made eta or asian made eta, no they should not.

Should a dealer mention eta made or subcontractor made, no if it is a licensed subcontractor.

If a watch is using a non licensed subcontractor you are talking about a copy of the movement and yes they should mention this.

The do mention is for the 7750 which is copy.

In reals life when you buy a cpu for example this can be made in any of the intel factories worldwide. To overclockers it is know that some factories have better quality and can be overclocked better. Can you demand from your cpu supplier that you only want to have a cpu from this or that factory. NO you cannot.

There are dozen of examples from products you buy that use parts from different sub-contractors. Nowhere they mention we use this or that sub contractor and this should not be important.

[pollux1]

He did say they have plants in Asia... and I would take his word over mine.

But I haven't found where it says that on their website (not denying, just haven't found) however I have found that their list of production centers does not list anything in Asia.

Also having production centers that create the entire movement in Asia would defy the "Swiss Made" rule set...

Bear in mind that having plants is not necessarily the same making the movements there... the plants might be responsible only for stamping out some portion of the parts or doing some minor assembly.

I'd love to know if the quality that comes from the Asian ETA plants ( assuming they actually do make the entire movement ) is on a par with their "Swiss made" counterparts, and again, if there is a difference in price with regards to the exact same movement?

[Devedander]

@bbob If I order an AMD 3200+ CPU then I can't demand what stepping I get. But if it says Barton Core or a certain kind of stepping right on the advert, then yes I would expect I get that.

And as for Dodge having VW engine... it would be nice if they said, but as long as they aren't saying "Dodge with Hemi" or something then stuffing a VW diesle in it's not the same either.

More analogus would be to have a Hyundai labled "Porsche Boxter Engine" and really it's just a cheap Korean engine.

@pollux it would be interesting to see... the thing is that from what I have seen "qualtiy" in Chinese factories is an interesting thing in that sometimes rather than hold the entire line up to a certain spec to get 95% yield at acceptable quality and scrapping the 5% crap, they work at a lower spec, get 60% yield at acceptable quality, but only pass that good stuff on to the contracting company but still come out ahead on cost. The crap... goes out the back door... quite possibly into reps... so you can't really say "quality from that plant" as you likely get high and low quality from the same plant.

[pollux1]

@bbob If I order an AMD 3200+ CPU then I can't demand what stepping I get. But if it says Barton Core or a certain kind of stepping right on the advert, then yes I would expect I get that.

And as for Dodge having VW engine... it would be nice if they said, but as long as they aren't saying "Dodge with Hemi" or something then stuffing a VW diesle in it's not the same either.

More analogus would be to have a Hyundai labled "Porsche Boxter Engine" and really it's just a cheap Korean engine.

@pollux it would be interesting to see... the thing is that from what I have seen "qualtiy" in Chinese factories is an interesting thing in that sometimes rather than hold the entire line up to a certain spec to get 95% yield at acceptable quality and scrapping the 5% crap, they work at a lower spec, get 60% yield at acceptable quality, but only pass that good stuff on to the contracting company but still come out ahead on cost. The crap... goes out the back door... quite possibly into reps... so you can't really say "quality from that plant" as you likely get high and low quality from the same plant.

Thanks devedander, I appreciate the clarification. It does further muddy the waters though. I take it if a "swiss eta movement" rep from the dealers on this board needs to be replaced, it can be swapped out with a movement of the same type from the likes of Ofrei?

[longshot]

Thanks devedander, I appreciate the clarification. It does further muddy the waters though. I take it if a "swiss eta movement" rep from the dealers on this board needs to be replaced, it can be swapped out with a movement of the same type from the likes of Ofrei?

i've had a couple 'eta' movement reps serviced and even parts replaced by a local watchmaker and he has taken parts off of 'parts' genuine watch 'swiss eta' movements that dropped right in. he has never suggested that the eta movements in the watches i've bought from joshua and andrew were somehow not eta.

[Devedander]

Yeah and bear in mind that clarification is just how I see it... it may not be accurate at all for any given circumstance. However it is why I see it as more important to correctly lable the movements as "Swiss ETA" regardless of where it was made or assembled denotes that it has passed some quality inspection... that it's not part of that 40% that didn't meet spec going out the back door.

I think we all know that parts that don't meet spec don't necessarily suck (most computer processors that have a higher clockspeed brother are simply the same chip that didn't meet spec and gets underclocked... often you can overclock it right back up to meet the original performance) so that 40% scrap isn't necessarily bad, just has a higher potential of failure when heald up to the same demands...

It's all a gamble... pay super low prices for scrap that probably works decently but has a 20% chance of failure or pay high prices for a piece that should have been inspected to meet certain criteria and should have a very low chance of failure.

As for the swiss movement swap question, I have asked and I believe I was told yes with the possilbility hands need to be changed to a different size... but don't take that verbatim.