Eta Movements - How Rare Are They?

[fotoman]

I have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with the idea of buying a rep with something OTHER than a genuine Swiss ETA/VALJOUX movement installed in it -- just as long as it is being CLEARLY AND PLAINLY REPRESENTED by the SELLER that it is NOT a GENUINE SWISS ETA/VALJOUX movement.

If you don't see the relevance and importance of this distinction, than I have a LOT of stuff I would like to sell to YOU.

TO EVERYONE ELSE:

Again, I know that a lot of you are genuinely horological experts. If you have something CONSTRUCTIVE to add to this discussion, and could re-examine the original question I posted and offer a THOUGHTFUL and USEFUL opinion regarding this topic, it would really, really be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

with all due respect my friend your buying a Fake Freaking Watch - if you don't see the relevance and importance of this distinction, than I have a LOT of stuff I would like to sell to YOU.

i'm not sure who [censored] in your cornflakes this morning, but you need to relax - do you like the watch? does it work well? do you enjoy it:) are you paying an amount appropriate to your enjoyment? then just relax and enjoy it

If your not happy with the price or level of enjoyment then reps aren't for you and you should stick to gens.

Our dealers are trustworthy - but face reality, your buying an illegal / fake product - you can't hold them to the same standard as your local rolex dealership

[crystalcranium]

Well you are missing an important category!

You are breaking it down too simplisitcly. Yoiu are saying a movement is either a 100% SWISS ETA movement assembled in Switzerland or it is a fake, a copy, a Chinese movement or whatever... but the fact is that there is a THIRD category which stradles the two.

That is official, acyial REAL ETA movements that are made in Asia. These are 100% official ETA movements that are made in Asian ETA owned plants. THESE are the movememnts you generally find in the 'Swiss ETA" watches sold by dealers here.

So to further answer your question virtually NONE of the watches actually have SWISS made ETA movements, however MANY have Asian made GENUINE ETA movements. These are exactly the same as the Swiss made ones though may or may not varry in color (this has never been confirmed but most think Asian ETA movemenst are gold while Swiss ones are silver).

Then you get into the outright fraud areas such as these "seagull" movemets which are copies of ETA 2892 movements. These are often sold as "Swiss ETA" when in fact there is NOTHING either Swiss or ETA about them other than the fact that they are COPIES of those movements. I have had some bad luck with them and I have also been ripped off by buying them under the guise of them being Swiss when simply put they are NOT.

Now when it comes to the ETA 7750 for some reason dealers are honest on that front, they call them ASIAN 7750's and those again are COPIES. They have nothing to do with ETA and nothing to do with being Swiss. They are copies of the genuien movement, fakes.

So it gets very comples but to re-cap:

Actual SWISS made ETA movements... very few in fakes. Most often when you do see them they will be genuine Swiss 7750's and sell for a lot.

Official ETA movements made in Asia...these are common in fakes. They are NOT copies but actual honest to God ETA branded and manufactured movements but NOT made in Switzerland. ETA has plants all over the world.

Cheap Chinese movements... these are also very common in most fakes though rarely sold as anything other than what they are. Dealers are generally honest about watches that contan these.

"Sea gulll" Swiss 2892 movements are FAKES. They are not Swiss, they are not ETA, they are simply copies and I HATE that dealers will refer to these as "Swiss ETA" because frankly that is a lie.

7750 movements. You can sometimes see genuine swiss made ETA 7750s being used but you usually see fake copies of them. Some people think they are OK movements, I generally do not like then as they have more problems than any other. Again for whatever reason dealers tend to be truthful about these being Asian but they still call them "ETA" which is confusing. They will say "Asian 7750" or even "Asian ETA 7750" which is misleading.

You need to really learn your way around a bit because there are odd customs in referring to different movements and some of it could be construed as lieing.

TVT nails it!!!

[Guest paintinc56]

It seems that no one is getting my point.

It is a rather simple, very straightforward, well-defined question:

Does anyone happen to KNOW if ANY of the replica DEALERS on RWG are KNOWINGLY selling replica watches that they are KNOWINGLY MISREPSENTING as to having GENUINE SWISS ETA movements. I guess I should have added: DOES ANYBODY EVEN CARE???

That IS a simple, straightforward question. It is not a matter of discussing whether or not a replica is something so ambiguous as a so-called "Swiss" quality replica. It is not a question of whether the replica that is being sold is a "Grade 1", "Grade A", "High Quality" replica, or any other such meaningless and rediculously ambiquous representation. DOES it have a GENUINE SWISS ETA MOVEMENT installed in it or NOT. IF it does NOT, then the seller/dealer should NOT represent that it has a GENUINE SWISS ETA MOVEMENT -- period, end of story.

They DO make, and they DO sell replica watches that DO have GENUINE SWISS MADE & MANUFACTURED ETA MOVEMENTS installed in them. At the very, very minimum it is MISLEADING -- REGARDLESS of the actual quality of the movement that is installed in the replica -- to REPRESENT that it has a GENUINE SWISS MADE & MANUFACTURED ETA MOVEMENT installed in the watch.

Bottom line: ETA is a BRAND NAME. An ETA movement is an ETA movement -- ANYTHING else is exactly that -- something OTHER than an ETA movement.

So where do you guys want to draw the line? If it is alright to call non-ETA movements ETA movements, then why not call glass crystals sapphire crystals? Why not call cheap low-grade stainless steel genuine high grade 440 stainless steel. Why not call cheap imitation leather alligator-grain watch straps genuine Lousiana Alligator watch straps? GET THE IDEA?

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH DESCRIBING AND SPECIFYING SOMETHING EXACTLY AS IT IS???

I really do not understand WHAT is so difficult to understand about this; but NOBODY seems to be getting the point, or even cares enough to get the point.

[crystalcranium]

It seems that no one is getting my point.

It is a rather simple, very straightforward, well-defined question:

Does anyone happen to KNOW if ANY of the replica DEALERS on RWG are KNOWINGLY selling replica watches that they are KNOWINGLY MISREPSENTING as to having GENUINE SWISS ETA movements. I guess I should have added: DOES ANYBODY EVEN CARE???

That IS a simple, straightforward question. It is not a matter of discussing whether or not a replica is something so ambiguous as a so-called "Swiss" quality replica. It is not a question of whether the replica that is being sold is a "Grade 1", "Grade A", "High Quality" replica, or any other such meaningless and rediculously ambiquous representation. DOES it have a GENUINE SWISS ETA MOVEMENT installed in it or NOT. IF it does NOT, then the seller/dealer should NOT represent that it has a GENUINE SWISS ETA MOVEMENT -- period, end of story.

They DO make, and they DO sell replica watches that DO have GENUINE SWISS MADE & MANUFACTURED ETA MOVEMENTS installed in them. At the very, very minimum it is MISLEADING -- REGARDLESS of the actual quality of the movement that is installed in the replica -- to REPRESENT that it has a GENUINE SWISS MADE & MANUFACTURED ETA MOVEMENT installed in the watch.

Bottom line: ETA is a BRAND NAME. An ETA movement is an ETA movement -- ANYTHING else is exactly that -- something OTHER than an ETA movement.

So where do you guys want to draw the line? If it is alright to call non-ETA movements ETA movements, then why not call glass crystals sapphire crystals? Why not call cheap low-grade stainless steel genuine high grade 440 stainless steel. Why not call cheap imitation leather alligator-grain watch straps genuine Lousiana Alligator watch straps? GET THE IDEA?

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH DESCRIBING AND SPECIFYING SOMETHING EXACTLY AS IT IS???

I really do not understand WHAT is so difficult to understand about this; but NOBODY seems to be getting the point, or even cares enough to get the point.

Dear God...shut up!

[Pugwash]

Also, the Asian made ETA movements are NOT sent back to Switzerland for inspection, they are made in Asia and shipped right from there to fulfill orders, they are however made to the same standards as the Swiss ones.

They are sent to Switzerland if they have Swiss Made stamped on them, unless they're used in reps. ETA movements with Swiss Made stamped on them are made with the intention of being finished in Switzerland.

http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php

A Swiss watch

Only when it is Swiss, may a watch carry the indications "Swiss made" or "Swiss", or any other expression containing the word "Swiss" or its translation, on the outside. According to Section 1a OSM, a watch is considered to be Swiss if:

+ its movement is Swiss;

+ its movement is cased up in Switzerland;

+ and the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland..

A Swiss watch movement

As we have seen, to be Swiss, a watch must use a Swiss movement. According to Section 2 OSM, a movement is considered to be Swiss if:

+ it has been assembled in Switzerland;

+ it has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland; and

+ the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.

If the movement fulfills these conditions, but the watch is not assembled in Switzerland, the "Swiss" indication may be affixed to one of the components of the movement. On the outside of the watch, may then only appear the "mouvement suisse" or "Swiss movement" indication. Section 3 § 3 OSM requires that the word "movement" appear in full, and be written in the same type-face, of identical size and colour, as the word "Swiss".

[Pugwash]

So where do you guys want to draw the line? If it is alright to call non-ETA movements ETA movements, then why not call glass crystals sapphire crystals?

Ok, nobody here is selling watches with non-ETA movements as ETA movements (apart from maybe Paulmart ). Forget that misapprehension right now. However, they're already calling mineral glass synthetic sapphire, so what's the problem?

I suspect you're looking for a problem where there isn't one. You can buy watches here safe in the knowledge that if you pay for ETA, you get ETA. Just don't get hung up on the word "Swiss".

[t]

gold color ETA movements never produced in switzerland... in switzerland were produced nickel or decorated movements. I never saw gold color ETA movement in switzerland (only decorated Unitas with special finish)???

ETA 2836-2 never produced in switzerland. ETA 2836-2 is long time out of production in swiss (around 20 years)... 2824-2 is the new 2836 movement but without day function... gold color 2836-2 are all from asian factorys... i don´t know if they build actual from asian ETA fatcorys or they are old stock from swiss 70´s 80´s years???

rolex movement has 28.800 beats... eta movement also 28.800 beats... but it beats different... close your eyes and hear both movements... and you will hear a difference...

genuine rolex caliber and ETA caliber isn´t in any relation... genuine rolex caliber weight double as ETA caliber and MUCH BETTER quality...

SWISS MADE is only a character and don´t meens: 100% produced in switzerland. ETA is a swiss factory and if they produced movements in asian factorys, they call it SWISS MADE and not MADE IN ASIA...

[By-Tor]

genuine rolex caliber weight double as ETA caliber

I have a hard time believing this. My father's genuine GMT Master (caliber 1560 I recall) weighs 3 grams LESS than my rep. And weight of the reps is usually within +/- 2 grams compared to genuine Rolex watches.

Rolex genuine weight chart (once again).

[Guest paintinc56]

tvt about covers it, although I'm not as critical of the Seagull movements - I've owned two and one Asian 7750 and these three movements have been the most accurate mechanical timekeepers I have. The 7750 developed a problem with the chrono, but it took a proper watchmaker (not a parts swapper or mere dismantler) an hour and $30 to repair.

There's also the issue of the ST Venus copy which most dealers still refer to as Lemania - a now defunct Swiss brand.

As I said, it doesn't really matter what these movements are represented as, and I find it ironic that someone is making issue with possible misrepresentation of the contents of a watch carrying fake logos.

Use your own eyes, your own judgement, and the advice and reviews of the many contributors here to come to an educated conclusion.

r11co:

So, if I follow your reasoning correctly, because we are buying and selling replica watches, then, by its very nature, it is not only permissable and acceptable to lie, cheat, and steal -- but, expected? Is that about right?

I haven't had any major problems with the dealers on this forum that I've chosen to do business with. But, again, I haven't cracked open all of the reps I've purchased to validate their integrity, either.

I believe that the majority of replica watch collectors/buyers are NOT dishonest liars, cheats, and thieves; but, rather, people who have a fascination with watches that they simply cannot afford to buy. Therefore, we turn to replicas in the hope of obtaining a facsimile at an affordable price of the genuine article. Obviously, based upon the collective input I've obtained from the replies to my posts, that is a naive postulate.

Nonetheless, the truth of the matter is this: no matter WHAT the product or commodity is, IF the buyers DEMAND more from the SELLERS, the SELLERS that want to SURVIVE in the marketplace will REPSOND by providing the BUYERS with what they want. The marketplace has ALWAYS worked that way, and it always will. That is, in large part, the primary reason that watch replicas have improved so dramatically over the past few years. In contrast, as long as the majority of buyers -- such as yourself -- are fully willing to just accept that sellers can represent their products with as much deceptiveness and misrpresentation as they wish, then they will continue to do just that.

I don't know whatever happened to enlightened, critical thinking -- maybe they don't teach that in college any more.

This topic has turned into the usual pointless pissing contest of the self-appointed horological elitists who feel they own these forums, so I will bid you all adieu.

[thewightstuff]

However, they're already calling mineral glass synthetic sapphire, so what's the problem?

couldnt decide if this was said with ones tongue firmly embedded in ones cheek however just incase it wasnt or some reading didnt get this, its my understanding that synthetic sapphire is exactly that. manmade sapphire. the other alternative is natural sapphire which is both rare and expensive. the sapphire used for most watch crystals, and certainly the reps, is factory grown and then machined making it indeed synthetic in the true sense of the word. not naturally occuring.

to the best of my knowledge, i dont know of any watches using natural sapphire for the crystal.

Edited December 28, 2006 by thewightstuff

[t]

I have a hard time believing this. My father's genuine GMT Master (caliber 1560 I recall) weighs 3 grams LESS than my rep. And weight of the reps is usually within +/- 2 grams compared to genuine Rolex watches.

Rolex genuine weight chart (once again).

i don´t mean the reps... i mean the movements... please compare ONLY movements

[By-Tor]

i don´t mean the reps... i mean the movements... please compare ONLY movements

I wonder how the watches can weigh the same if the Rolex movement is twice as heavy? Do you have any statistics of this? How much does say, a Rolex Caliber 3135 weigh compared to a standard ETA?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just find it strange (and surprising). I know chronograph movements are heavier but I didn't know there could be such dramatic difference between two standard self-winding movements. Perhaps the reps use heavier bracelets and cases then... to achieve the same weight?

[t]

dear Thor

i haven´t weight both movements

but i have many eta movements on stock and last time i get a genuine rolex caliber 1570 (from 70´s)... and belive me it weights maybe 3 times more than eta 2892...

i hold the rolex caliber in my right hand and the eta caliber in my left hand... i feel a BIG BIG VERY BIG weight difference... also it is heavier than eta 2824...

i am SURE

damn i have sold the rolex caliber.... but i will look how much weights ETA movements

wait a minute... i have some hundrets movements on stock

Edited December 28, 2006 by tourbillon1801

[t]

eta 2892-A2 or eta 2893-2 - 10.25g

swiss decorated unitas - 23.65g

asian unitas - 23.5g

asian panerai swans neck - 23.25g

asia 7753 (incl. steel crown) - 30.25g

genuine omega valjoux 7750 - 26.10g

venus 175 copy (incl. steel crown) - 19.8g

i will look tomorrow for eta 2824-2...

Edited December 28, 2006 by tourbillon1801

[longshot]

I wonder how the watches can weigh the same if the Rolex movement is twice as heavy? Do you have any statistics of this? How much does say, a Rolex Caliber 3135 weigh compared to a standard ETA?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just find it strange (and surprising). I know chronograph movements are heavier but I didn't know there could be such dramatic difference between two standard self-winding movements. Perhaps the reps use heavier bracelets and cases then... to achieve the same weight?

i agree completely. in fact i would venture to say it's just not possible for the rolex movement in a sub to weigh twice what an eta 2824/2836 weighs. there are a certain number of parts in a self winding date movement with a center seconds, plus or minus maybe a few. unless the rolex movement is solid gold or depleted uranium (eek!) there is just not enough space in the case for additional mass to double the weight. period.

until someone shows me a chart in grams of the weight of a rolex movement and an equal size eta with the rolex weighing twice as much i'll chalk this up to urban wis legend

[Devedander]

I think the question the OP is getting at here, details asside, is when a watch is labled "Swiss ETA" is it the same thing we would get in an AD from a watch that would use the same movement? In other words does "Swiss ETA" have a different meaning in the rep world than it does in the gen world?

Regardless of whether they are a good value or what else has a different meaning in the rep world, I think this is a legit question and I would like to know also... it has been my understanding that those marked with Swiss are at least the same parts as their swiss counterparts (thus the ease of repairs down the road).

[robertk]

From my perspective I'm buying a replica watch, so I assume I get a replica movement.

I have a LOT of watches and they ALL work fine over the years. I don't pay for Swiss (except on rare occasions) so frankly I don't care if they come from China or Nambia, as long as they work.....and they do.

[Devedander]

I think that's a good mindset to have as it certainly avoids potential dissapointment, but it still skirts the question... what exactly are the details behind the Swiss ETA dealers sell?

[tvt]

No, "Swiss" or even "ETA" does NOT mean the same thing here or in the "rep" world in general as it does in a genuine watch AD.

Does it suck... YES!

Does it make sense... NO!

Is it somehow unique to the dealers here... ABSOLUTELY NOT. In fact the dealers here are much LESS guilty of it than most scam sights that list all sorts of crazy ass crap, most of which are out right lies (hand crafted in Switzerland, as good as genuine, etc.)

If you have been around the fake watch world long enough you know the origins of these terms (Swiss, Japanese, Chinese, etc. which used to be grade A, B, C, etc.). All meaningless drivel designed mostly to confuse unsuspecting and uninformed buyers. Over the years sadly a lot of these terms have sort of stuck or have been modified and it is VERY confusing.

The bottom line is that very few of the watches sold here or anywhere fake watches are sold containe actual genuine SWISS made ETA movements. There ARE exceptions, you can get genuine Swiss made 7750's and maybe a coupel other movements from our dealers but they are few and far in between, and MUCH more costly than the average fake.

So it is true that when a dealer says "Swiss ETA" it is at best an authorized ETA movement produced in Asia from an actual ETA plant. At worst it is something liek the "Seagull" that simply has nothing to do with ETA or being Swiss.

So if we are to be honest with ourselves the dealers ARE misleading peopel by using such terms as "Swiss". the thing is that they are probably, in most cases, NOT trying to lie to us but rather using poorly defined terms that have evolved meaning over years. To those who have been around long enough they can decipher the code, to most others it is confusing, misleading and border line dishonest.

I would rather see terms liek this:

Swiss ETA would mean just that, a SWISS made ETA movement.

Asian ETA would again, be just what the name says, an actual ETA movement made in an authorized but non Swiss ETA factory.

Asian copy XXX would mean a COPY of a particular movement. The term ETA should NOT be attached in any way. So you would have terms like "Asian COPY 7750" This would let us know what the movement was based on but avoid any possible confusion with it being gen in any way.

A Myota would be called a Myota, simple.

Finally the low end Chinese movements should simply be called "Generic Asian movement" or something similar.

What we shoudl NOT see and what honestly does bother me are terms like "Swiss ETA" applied to an ETA movement made in Asia, Butr worse yet are when a dealer will say "Swiss ETA 2892" and it ends up being a flat out COPY of that movement... now THAT really is dishonest.

Again, I think most of this stems from a twisted and long and convoluted past but maybe it is time the slate is wiped clean and we get actual factual terms used in which one does not need to be an expert to interpret.

[Devedander]

Thank you TVT I think that's exaclty the kind of honest answer the community can benefit from... after all, aren't we all here to help everyone make educated decisions based on the truth of a subject?

Sure people who have been around a lot and know a lot may be able to decipher what the real meanings are, but I think it's great to let noobs know the truth right up front, after all it doesn't hurt anyone... a seagull movement watch is probably still a great deal at $200-300.

I can understand why dealers resort to "little white lies", one only has to look as far as the noobmariner or ultimate PO or the recent HBB to see what marketing can do even in our educated community, and you can't really blame a dealer for not wanting to be the one selling "Generic Asian Rolex Daytona" when everyone else is selling "Swiss 7750"... but then again it does beg how far it can go... I mean we are getting 1:1 reps with drawn on screw heads...

It's one thing to say "it's still a good value" or "everyone should know" but those are all excuses... just like we tell people the truth about the $1000 swiss replicas untruths, I would think that, especially amongst ourselves, we would want all the truth about everything on the table for the communities benefit...

[Pugwash]

couldnt decide if this was said with ones tongue firmly embedded in ones cheek however just incase it wasnt or some reading didnt get this, its my understanding that synthetic sapphire is exactly that. manmade sapphire. the other alternative is natural sapphire which is both rare and expensive.

It was said in all seriousness.

Some dealers say "Synthetic Sapphire" when they are using mineral glass. I am aware of the differences in synthetic sapphire and naturally occurring sapphire, and can confirm that naturally occurring sapphire is too cloudy to be used as a watch crystal.

TTK is one of the few dealers that uses the term "Synthetic Sapphire" correctly, but hopefully the other dealers will eventually change their practice.

[SportsterRider]

Want to learn more?

Check out the pictures of movement shavings left floating around the movement, poorly oiled parts, and nasty looking screws. I still love Rolexes, though. And I have since day one. Just purchased a nice 5513 and, metal shavings in the movement or not, I'm still happy as a pig in [censored].

Walt Odet's Infamous Explorer 1 Review on TimeZone.com (he really blasts it on the 2nd page.)

Here are a couple more looks at Rolex movements. Both of these deal with the more common 3135.

http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/andrewb/3135/3135_1.htm

http://www.rolexreferencepage.com/yachtmasterreview.html

Dave

[Pugwash]

Check out the pictures of movement shavings left floating around the movement, poorly oiled parts, and nasty looking screws. I still love Rolexes, though. And I have since day one. Just purchased a nice 5513 and, metal shavings in the movement or not, I'm still happy as a pig in [censored].

Walt Odet's Infamous Explorer 1 Review on TimeZone.com (he really blasts it on the 2nd page.)

This famous post has been torn apart by better men than me. If you're going to read this post, I would do so knowing that it's the start of the debate and not the end.

[RWG Technical]

gold color ETA movements never produced in switzerland... in switzerland were produced nickel or decorated movements. I never saw gold color ETA movement in switzerland (only decorated Unitas with special finish)???

So funny how there so much information that is opposite...

My supplier, in business since 1929, official everything dealer (including Rolex when you could get the parts), sells two types of ETA movements,

1. non Swiss

2. Genuine From the ETA Factory Swiss in sealed packages.

Guess what colour the Genuine ETA sealed package from Swiss are?

If you guessed GOLD, your right...and this is directly opposite of your comments, so who really knows...

My supplier says to me all Nickel ETA are from HK...

Go figure.

Other than this one measly comment, I think TVT did a fantastic job, kept his composure and covered it all in wonderful detail.

I have seen and continue to see 2892's that are Seagull ones, but I also get SW200's in watches for service (looks like ETA 2836), and older ETA models, some discontinued for 30 years...

Bottom line, it's a clone watch, you get what they can get on the surplus market...

RG

[RWG Technical]

For what it's worth, after 3 pages of arguments and comments...

I went to the web site quoted in the first post, read the comments, and what struck me are two things...well three if you consider that this bozo is simply that - a bozo...

1. These comments are from ONE person, who has admittely only examined a few watches, big deal, why put any value into what he says, is he an expert? Admittely no. Has he handled many reps, again no, so who cares what he says...I could put a website up saying whatever...so what...

2. In one paragraph he says "DO NOT BUY Fake watches..." then the next paragraph, he says "...many fakes pass my desk, and I pass them on (read=SELL) to clients who know what they are getting" Two faced polly wog or what? So he actually sells reps...

Our only concern is what do we buy from our dealers, and from my perspective on the Bench, and probably seeing more watches in a month than this yo-yo sees in a year, if it's sold as an ETA - then it's an ETA...no question about it. Where it's made? who cares and what does it matter, Swiss made or not, if it's an ETA that is all that matters...

No further comments, this is one of the most ridiculous threads I have ever seen, too much emotion and serioiusness for my taste...

(2892's Seagul copies excepted for the above comments)

RG