Eta Movements - How Rare Are They?

[Guest paintinc56]

SWISS ETA MOVEMENTS - HOW RARE ARE THEY?

I ran accross a web site -- www.thewatchplaceonline.com -- that is purportedly operated by a master watchmaker who dicusses replica watches on one of his web pages, and points out that in his many, many years of examining thousands of replicas, that he has only run across a replica with an actual Swiss ETA movement on very, very rare occassion; and, that the vast, vast majority of replicas represented by the dealers to have Swiss ETA movements, are, in actuality, just very cheap CHINESE (not Japanese) movements. He further states that even the Japanese Miyota movements are far better than the cheap Chinese movements; and, that they, too are rarely found in replica watches.

Here is the link: http://www.thewatchplaceonline.com/replica_watches.htm

I have been of the impression that most of the dealers here on TRC that sell reps represented to have ETA movements, do, in fact, have ETA movements.

If anyone has an informed opinion to share, I would be interested in furthering my education.

I very much look forward to your comments; and, I do ask that you would please try to keep your replies on-point and not stray off topic.

THANKS!

Edited December 28, 2006 by paintinc56

[2005SUBMARINER]

as i understand it , ETA movements are assembled in asia then shipped back to switzerland for inspection same as GEN ROLEX watches , iv read somewhere that they are also assembled in asian

& our in house master watch maker The Zigmeister also said that miyota is much better that most eta movements ..

[tonyp1]

Im a noob but even I know that any ETA movement no matter if it was made in japan is better than a MIYOTA.

[tvt]

The short version is that is has become more confusing recently with most dealers calling certain movements ETA which are actually copies of ETA movements and that is a problem.

Hoever MOST ETA movements as advertised are the real deal... it is only when you get to the higher end movements like the 7750 that they start to become fakes.

The guy is correct I am sure that the MASS majority of fakes overall have cheap chinese movements, but most that you see here advertised as ETA are in fact just that... but it is complicated for sure.

[Devedander]

Im a noob but even I know that any ETA movement no matter if it was made in japan is better than a MIYOTA.

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that Miyota cranks out some top notch stuff on some of it's movements.

BTW I believe it has been said here that all the ETAs you see in reps have their parts made in China, however some are sent to switzerland to be assembled and finished and those are labled swiss.

[tonyp1]

as i understand it , ETA movements are assembled in asia then shipped back to switzerland for inspection same as GEN ROLEX watches , iv read somewhere that they are also assembled in asian

& our in house master watch maker The Zigmeister also said that miyota is much better that most eta movements ..

WOW, if this is true than then maybe its better to buy a nice fake and keep the extra 4500 in your wallet.

[tvt]

Re: Rolex being made in Asia. I don't know how or where this rumor got started but it is NOT true. Rolex movements are in fact assembled in Switzerland just as you would think. Also, the Asian made ETA movements are NOT sent back to Switzerland for inspection, they are made in Asia and shipped right from there to fulfill orders, they are however made to the same standards as the Swiss ones.

[NRG]

many years of examining thousands of replicas, that he has only run across a replica with an actual Swiss ETA movement on very, very rare occassion; and, that the vast, vast majority of replicas represented by the dealers to have Swiss ETA movements, are, in actuality, just very cheap CHINESE (not Japanese) movements.

He doesn't seem that well informed does he......

[tonyp1]

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that Miyota cranks out some top notch stuff on some of it's movements.

BTW I believe it has been said here that all the ETAs you see in reps have their parts made in China, however some are sent to switzerland to be assembled and finished and those are labled swiss.

I dont question your superior knowledge here. I just cant stand the ticking and jumping second hand on these movements. It is totally inconsistent with how a rolex operates.

[Devedander]

I am by no means an expert, I could just as much be wrong on my Miyota statement as right

Hmmm... I think l Rolexes use VERY high standard completely in house movements I believe... they are mightily overpriced, but there is no denying they are absolutely excellent movements.

But what movements are you noticing too much ticking on? I mean Gen Rolex's tick... just very small ticks... if you are noticing a significantly worse tick on your ETA watches then maybe something is wrong with them...

My 21j asians hold up to the passing eye and I feel my "ETA" reps are pretty darn smooth...

[2005SUBMARINER]

i think he was refering to the original miyota 8215 movement wich tics like a quartz

but its an excellent movement if you dont mind its choppy ticking ..

i have an original miyota installed in my old asian planet ocean & works excellent .

[tonyp1]

I have a Gen 1680 that ticks but thats because I got messed over on ebay transaction. Its basically a kit watch, my friendly rolex dealer informed this to me after a 2 month wait (too late to get my money back). Yes my ETA is smoother than my gen .

[elprimerozen]

I went with this watch to Rolex service(he is a good friend)in Greece,and he toled me that is one of the best rep he have ever seen...But he is saying that this eta 2892 is made and assembled in china..he is not 100% sure but looking at one Cartier original movement he saw some flaws!I dont know what do you think ?

[tonyp1]

Where did you get that Omega?

[r11co]

I went with this watch to Rolex service(he is a good friend)in Greece,and he toled me that is one of the best rep he have ever seen...But he is saying that this eta 2892 is made and assembled in china..he is not 100% sure but looking at one Cartier original movement he saw some flaws!I dont know what do you think ?

That movement is a Seagull ST-18. It is a copy of the ETA 2892, and is (unofficially) reported as being the result of a terminated agreement to build the 2892 in China under license.

[ubiquitous]

Montres Rolex owns all points of production in their manufacturing, with the exception being balance springs (nivarox). With everything being in house and proprietary, they have no need to outsource elsewhere for production. Everything stays in Geneva, Switzerland.

[Guest paintinc56]

I really appreciate having so much input so quickly.

A POINT OF CLARIFICATION: Is it not at the very least a "misnomer", if not, in fact, a complete misrepresentation to call ANY movement that is NOT actually manufactured by the company "ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse" located in Switzerland and that is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Swatch Group an "ETA" movement. Even if it is an EXACT COPY of a GENUINE ETA movement (which I really, really doubt that it would be), it still is, at best, exactly that -- A COPY/REPLICA/FAKE -- NOT an "ETA" movement that is assembled from ALL GENUINE ETA MANUFACTURED PARTS.

I know that ETA has greatly reduced the quantity of generic ETA movements that are being made available for general sale to non-authorized watch manufacturers; primarily to reduce the number of high-end replica watches being manufactured. Nonetheless, they can still be acquired -- and, at quite a reasonable price, especially in quantity -- from several watch part dealers, including ofrei (Otto Frei, at www.ofrei.com) who offers MANY genuine Swiss ETA movement models (as well as Swiss Valjoux movements) for retail and wholesale purchase.

So, once again, my specific question is this: Are the watches that are REPRESENTED as having GENUINE SWISS ETA MOVEMENTS by the various REP DEALERS on RWG REALLY GENUINE SWISS ETA MOVEMENTS or are they "ETA copies", "Asian movements", "Chinese movements", "Japanese movements", or ANYTHING other than what they are being REPRESENTED to be -- GENUINE ETA MOVEMENTS with SPECIFIC SWISS ETA MOVEMENT MODEL NUMBERS.

[elprimerozen]

That movement is a Seagull ST-18. It is a copy of the ETA 2892, and is (unofficially) reported as being the result of a terminated agreement to build the 2892 in China under license.

Yes thanks you are correct ...but it runs very very well!!!!

[r11co]

So, once again, my specific question is this: Are the watches that are REPRESENTED as having GENUINE SWISS ETA MOVEMENTS by the various REP DEALERS on RWG REALLY GENUINE SWISS ETA MOVEMENTS or are they "ETA copies", "Asian movements", "Chinese movements", "Japanese movements", or ANYTHING other than what they are being REPRESENTED to be -- GENUINE ETA MOVEMENTS with SPECIFIC SWISS ETA MOVEMENT MODEL NUMBERS.

I hold that, unless you trust the word of marketing people and folks with a vested interest in maintaining the value of premium branding over your own judgement and the observations of people who work on these movements, who understand the engineering of them and can see beyond the nameplate, then it doesn't matter.

[elprimerozen]

Yes thanks you are correct ...but it runs very very well!!!!

...So can any one tell me if the st-25 which is based on st-18(2892) is ticking at 28800bph???

[Guest chronomat123]

Hmmm... I think l Rolexes use VERY high standard completely in house movements I believe... they are mightily overpriced, but there is no denying they are absolutely excellent movements.

Well-- you're sort of right. Truth is, Rolex movements are not very well finished. Their standards are not very high. This is even more obvious in light of their retail prices. In Rolex's defense, however, they do pump out around 800,000 watches per year, so I don't expect to open a Rolex and see Patek quality guts: a case of quantity over quality.

The reason they are good is not so much because of the quality of finishing or their level of engineering complexity, but simply because they quite reliable and simple. Every good watchmaker I've ever spoken to about Rolex movements has pretty much conceded that a Rolex movement is like an old Jeep--not too fancy, but reliable as hell. Just look at all of the vintage Rolexes out there that have survived decades of abuse and still tick away perfectly. I have my 16550 from 1986 in front of me right now, and it keeps stunningly accurate time.

Want to learn more?

Check out the pictures of movement shavings left floating around the movement, poorly oiled parts, and nasty looking screws. I still love Rolexes, though. And I have since day one. Just purchased a nice 5513 and, metal shavings in the movement or not, I'm still happy as a pig in [censored].

Walt Odet's Infamous Explorer 1 Review on TimeZone.com (he really blasts it on the 2nd page.)

[fotoman]

I really appreciate having so much input so quickly.

A POINT OF CLARIFICATION: Is it not at the very least a "misnomer", if not, in fact, a complete misrepresentation to call ANY movement that is NOT actually manufactured by the company "ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse" located in Switzerland and that is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Swatch Group an "ETA" movement. Even if it is an EXACT COPY of a GENUINE ETA movement (which I really, really doubt that it would be), it still is, at best, exactly that -- A COPY/REPLICA/FAKE -- NOT an "ETA" movement that is assembled from ALL GENUINE ETA MANUFACTURED PARTS.

I know that ETA has greatly reduced the quantity of generic ETA movements that are being made available for general sale to non-authorized watch manufacturers; primarily to reduce the number of high-end replica watches being manufactured. Nonetheless, they can still be acquired -- and, at quite a reasonable price, especially in quantity -- from several watch part dealers, including ofrei (Otto Frei, at www.ofrei.com) who offers MANY genuine Swiss ETA movement models (as well as Swiss Valjoux movements) for retail and wholesale purchase.

So, once again, my specific question is this: Are the watches that are REPRESENTED as having GENUINE SWISS ETA MOVEMENTS by the various REP DEALERS on RWG REALLY GENUINE SWISS ETA MOVEMENTS or are they "ETA copies", "Asian movements", "Chinese movements", "Japanese movements", or ANYTHING other than what they are being REPRESENTED to be -- GENUINE ETA MOVEMENTS with SPECIFIC SWISS ETA MOVEMENT MODEL NUMBERS.

You need to step back and look at the big picture - first of all no one said these movements were made in geneve -

ETA sells all kinds of movemetnts to all kinds of people. THey sell movement "kits" for instance there are a few Ulysses Nardin that are made from an ETA movements - they are called in house, but they buy the kits, and make some changes and add on some modules.

the term "swiss" in replica speak doesn't mean "swiss made" its like a quality rating - so the "swiss case" that josh sells wasn't made in switzerland.

The watch was put together by chinese workers making 3 cents an hour - no matter where they got the movement from there are still going to be issues ect.

the ETA movements are your 'higher quality" movements real eta or eta copy,t hey are better than the crap movements in the cheap reps.

Now- onto your rolex - what watch do you have with what movement.

The ticking is all about beat rate - Rolex beats at 28,800 / hr

the 7750 beats at 28,800 - i have held my gt bently next to my fathers gen breit and they "tick" exactly the same.

I had a "swiss" rolex from king when i first joined the board. I don't think it ticked smooth enough. but, honestly, i don't trust king or the servicer who worked on that watch so i don't know what was in it.

I'm going to get a omega PO with a 2824 - i will then be able to evaluate that next to a gen rolex and or my breit GT so i can decide for myself about all this

your average asian movement beats at 18000 /hr

so - exactly what rolex from what dealre are you talking about

[Guest paintinc56]

TO: r11co

I'm not entirely certain if I fully understand the nature of your reply or question.

But I think it most certainly DOES matter that rep dealers, and any other person selling any product, try to be as honest and straightforward in REPRESENTING what they are selling as possible.

IF an Asian/Japanese/Chinese movement, or a so-called "COPY" of a BRANDED movement really IS as good (or better) than the BRANDED movement, then WHY represent it as ANYTHING other than what it really is -- WHAT is the PURPOSE in doing so??? That reasoning makes no logical sense whatsoever. Why not just say -- IF IT IS TRUE: "NEW Asian/Japanese/Chinese XYZ movement -- BETTER than a GENUINE SWISS ETA/VALJOUX XYZ movement"; OR "New Asian/Japanese/Chinese COPY of GENUINE SWISS ETA/VALJOUX XYZ movement -- A BETTER movement than the GENUINE SWISS ETA/VALJOUX XYZ movement".

I have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with the idea of buying a rep with something OTHER than a genuine Swiss ETA/VALJOUX movement installed in it -- just as long as it is being CLEARLY AND PLAINLY REPRESENTED by the SELLER that it is NOT a GENUINE SWISS ETA/VALJOUX movement.

If you don't see the relevance and importance of this distinction, than I have a LOT of stuff I would like to sell to YOU.

TO EVERYONE ELSE:

Again, I know that a lot of you are genuinely horological experts. If you have something CONSTRUCTIVE to add to this discussion, and could re-examine the original question I posted and offer a THOUGHTFUL and USEFUL opinion regarding this topic, it would really, really be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

[tvt]

Well you are missing an important category!

You are breaking it down too simplisitcly. Yoiu are saying a movement is either a 100% SWISS ETA movement assembled in Switzerland or it is a fake, a copy, a Chinese movement or whatever... but the fact is that there is a THIRD category which stradles the two.

That is official, acyial REAL ETA movements that are made in Asia. These are 100% official ETA movements that are made in Asian ETA owned plants. THESE are the movememnts you generally find in the 'Swiss ETA" watches sold by dealers here.

So to further answer your question virtually NONE of the watches actually have SWISS made ETA movements, however MANY have Asian made GENUINE ETA movements. These are exactly the same as the Swiss made ones though may or may not varry in color (this has never been confirmed but most think Asian ETA movemenst are gold while Swiss ones are silver).

Then you get into the outright fraud areas such as these "seagull" movemets which are copies of ETA 2892 movements. These are often sold as "Swiss ETA" when in fact there is NOTHING either Swiss or ETA about them other than the fact that they are COPIES of those movements. I have had some bad luck with them and I have also been ripped off by buying them under the guise of them being Swiss when simply put they are NOT.

Now when it comes to the ETA 7750 for some reason dealers are honest on that front, they call them ASIAN 7750's and those again are COPIES. They have nothing to do with ETA and nothing to do with being Swiss. They are copies of the genuien movement, fakes.

So it gets very comples but to re-cap:

Actual SWISS made ETA movements... very few in fakes. Most often when you do see them they will be genuine Swiss 7750's and sell for a lot.

Official ETA movements made in Asia...these are common in fakes. They are NOT copies but actual honest to God ETA branded and manufactured movements but NOT made in Switzerland. ETA has plants all over the world.

Cheap Chinese movements... these are also very common in most fakes though rarely sold as anything other than what they are. Dealers are generally honest about watches that contan these.

"Sea gulll" Swiss 2892 movements are FAKES. They are not Swiss, they are not ETA, they are simply copies and I HATE that dealers will refer to these as "Swiss ETA" because frankly that is a lie.

7750 movements. You can sometimes see genuine swiss made ETA 7750s being used but you usually see fake copies of them. Some people think they are OK movements, I generally do not like then as they have more problems than any other. Again for whatever reason dealers tend to be truthful about these being Asian but they still call them "ETA" which is confusing. They will say "Asian 7750" or even "Asian ETA 7750" which is misleading.

You need to really learn your way around a bit because there are odd customs in referring to different movements and some of it could be construed as lieing.

[r11co]

tvt about covers it, although I'm not as critical of the Seagull movements - I've owned two and one Asian 7750 and these three movements have been the most accurate mechanical timekeepers I have. The 7750 developed a problem with the chrono, but it took a proper watchmaker (not a parts swapper or mere dismantler) an hour and $30 to repair.

There's also the issue of the ST Venus copy which most dealers still refer to as Lemania - a now defunct Swiss brand.

As I said, it doesn't really matter what these movements are represented as, and I find it ironic that someone is making issue with possible misrepresentation of the contents of a watch carrying fake logos.

Use your own eyes, your own judgement, and the advice and reviews of the many contributors here to come to an educated conclusion.