Disassembly and service of Miyota 8200A (Citizen 21j) VERY PIC HEAVY!!

[Dawagner]

Hey all,

Was bored this weekend and decided to take down an old Citizen (Miyota 8200A) movement I had laying around and to practice my Macro Photography on these small parts.  That and I haven't seen any real complete walk throughs on these types of movements, but that is likely because they are cheap and people rather just replace the whole movement instead of bothering to CSL.  Any ways without further delay here we go!

 

First off come the hands,  Nasty looking things.

To remove the inner day wheel you need to pry up this C clip.  I used a pair of hand levers and slowly worked it up the hour pinion.  Do not try to pop it off sideways as it will break.....

 

Pulling off the day wheel reveals the calendar works cover plate. 

Remove the 4 screws and lift off this plate.

To reveal the calendar works.

Remove the calendar wheel that was held down by the plate and the tension of the swan neck shaped jumper spring at the bottom.

Next remove the screws and plastic day & date changer wheels and the small metal gear.

The hour pinion is loose and lifts off, the minute pinion is press fit on so you will need to lift it off with some hand levers or removal tool  I like to use a presto hand lifter for this.

Remove the 2 screws covering the day/date quick adjustment gears.

Gears exposed to show their orientation for re-installation later.  Go ahead and remove these both. Then we flip the movement over to release any tension in the mainspring and start to remove the motion works.

Oscillating weight and then oscillating weight removed.

Here is the click spring and you can see the click hidden under the train bridge.  Gently slide the spring to the right while holding the crown in your other fingers and allow the tension out of the MS slowly.

Remove the 3 screws after the MS tension is all let out.

 

Under side of the bridge is a spring.  I just left this on during cleaning process.

Remove the gears that link the keyless works to the mainspring barrel.

Time to remove the train of wheels.  Here is an attempt to photograph the bottoms of them to help tell the difference. 

All the train removed.

Click spring and click up next for removal.

Time to remove the small bridge.  Be careful the seconds pinion is just loose in here lift this up and out prior to removing the bridge.

Bridge removed to reveal the last wheel.

Balance [censored] screw and balance [censored] removed.

Lastly on this side remove the pallet bridge then the pallet, escape wheel and the last wheel.

Flip back over to tackle the keyless works.

Setting levers removed, finally the stem recension lever/jumper is permanently attached to the main plate but at this point is free floating so lift it up slightly and the stem and pinion can be removed.

Balance back on the plate and its cleaning time for all parts.  The cleaning sadly won't do much to beautify these parts as they are pretty cheaply made...

 

Ill follow up with the reassembly in a separate post just to break it up a bit :).

 

 

 

 

[Dawagner]

OK now that parts are all clean its time to reassemble!  I do apologize i may have skipped a couple shots and I switched the angle of the camera to try and eliminate the Depth of Field issues with being at an angle but going directly perpendicular on caused the glare/surface ugliness of the parts to be a lot more visible.

 

Disclaimer: I will say that my way is definitely not the only way to reassemble.  I followed no guide and just went with what worked for me and seemed logical from other movements.

 

First up Escape wheel.

Then the center wheel and the barrel and arbor.  Make sure the teeth on the barrel are on the bottom side and the section of the arbor that is squared is facing up.  This will engage another gear that sets on top and is how the mainspring is wound.

Next install the center bridge and the seconds pinion.  I used some Moebius 9010 to lubricate the shaft of the seconds pinion where it rotates in the bridge jewel.

Then we move onto the click and the click spring.  Lubricate the contact points of the spring and click with 9501.

The automatic works gears are installed next.  The gold wheel is a double wheel and has a silver metal wheel sandwiched underneath.  This silver wheel is what the click actually interacts with so you have to rotate the click out of the way to get the wheel in place.  This pressure put on by the click does make installing the wheel bridge a pain in the a** later on where you have to try and align 4 wheel pivots pretty much blindly into their specific bridge jewel's...

Next up the motion works wheels.  The fatter/larger/darker in color wheel goes in first.

Next up the keyless work gears.  Note that the little brass spring washer kind of snaps down over the center pivot and is to curve up like a bowl not down towards the plate like a mound.

Ok this is the worst part about this movement.  Everything in the automatic and motion works is held in place by this large bridge. and you have to get 4 pivots and the barrel arbor all lined up correctly.  Take your time and go slow and soft.  I used a oiler to help reach each wheel and try to maneuver them into place.  When you think you have it you probably don't.  Make sure all motion work wheels spin freely.  To test the automatic works I used a piece of peg wood to move/wind the barrel.  When all are aligned then screw down the 3 bridge screws.

Im going to keep these full size so you can see how the bends in the levers are supposed to face.  I lubricated the lever contact points with 9501 and the winding pinion contact points with D-5.

Next up is the pallet.  The shorter arm faces toward the center of the movement. I must have skipped the photo but then the pallet bridge goes on.  It can only fit one way.  Lubricate the pivot stone on the bridge before proceeding to the balance as it will be covered.

The balance in place.

Not pictured is the attachment of the oscillating weight but that is self explanatory.

 

Thank you all for reading!  I hope that helps someone out there!  Let me know if you have any questions!

 

[jazziii]

Hi, I have been using your great post as a guide. I have a fairly new/seldom used marine master dive watch. Actually wish i had read it before. Anyways, I was planning to change the crystal and I broke the stem somehow right at the edge of the movement, impossible to get out, so I disassembled the movement from the back side taking the bridge plate off. I managed to get old the piece of old stem out, and my replacement stem looks correct. 2 questions - 1) I seem to have lost one of the 2 smaller brass gears (one of the 2 small ones that look almost identical) and i'm stuck and unhappy because if it landed on my clothes it could be anywhere in my house. Is this a "standard part" that watchmakers would have in different sizes, or is it unique part number only for this movement and has to be ordered as such? The movement is simply labeled 8200 (not A), and i bought the watch new around 2010 i think. Miyota doesn'T have it on their website,  2) I didn't realize that getting the bridge plate back on with all the wheels aligned would be so difficult (based on your description) and i worry i may not have all the wheels properly engaged - this is my first time reassembling a movement, so at this stage, i'm wondering if a) i should try to see if i can find a watchmaker who has the missing part if i can find the spec of it and then try to reassemble, or just abandon and find another use for the soon to be delivered sapphire crystal. I don't know if i would get a new movement, which isnt cheap and presents other challenges like removing the hands and movement from the dial and put on a new movement, never done before. 

[automatico]

"I disassembled the movement from the back side taking the bridge plate off."

" I didn't realize that getting the bridge plate back on with all the wheels aligned would be so difficult..."

 

I know what you mean, these movements are a hassle to put together because of the train wheels, escape wheel, and reverser all crammed under one plate.   I detest them.  The easiest way is to remove the balance assembly first as this leaves more room, then put the movement together and install the balance last.  The downside is when r/r the balance, you risk tweaking the hairspring. 

 

"...is it unique part number only for this movement?" 

 

Yes, unless China clone parts will fit.

 

"i should try to see if i can find a watchmaker who has the missing part..." 

 

 

In my experience, unless you know a friendly watch repair guy, you could get robbed. 

This is harsh advice, but sometimes true, especially today with fewer repair guys around who are willing to help someone out.

 

You could buy a China clone of the Miyota 8200 (plus a 'no name' dial/cheap set of hands) and practice, practice, practice until you get the hang of disassembly/assembly if you want to learn how to work on one.  Then buy a new 8215 or repair yours and install it.  

China clone parts might fit the Miyota...but you would be paying $20+ for the parts when a complete new Miyota 2015 is only $10 more.

 

Some China clones are pretty good, depending on brand, prior handling etc.  The better clones are DG (Dixmont Guangzhou) or NN (Nanning) but the brands are usually not specified.  

Otoh, some are pretty bad too, it's luck of the draw.

 

When buying a replacement movement, be sure it is a 'Miyota 8215'  NOT  'Movement for Miyota 8215.'

Examples:

China clone...eBay item number: 394408095202     $20.15

Miyota 8215...eBay item number:293795133957    $29.99

Imho the Miyota is a better deal, but you still need to be able to r/r dials and hands without damage.  This requires practice, practice, practice.  And patience.

 

 

[jazziii]

thanks, that's what i figured i found the 3rd and 4th wheel on ebay, 10 bucks each per set of three, not sure which one i have. my problem is i really like the dial hands and case on this model CITIZEN NH8381-12LB, and despite the barebones movement it isn't particularly cheap north of 200usd new, but the shrouded case and bezel are quite nice. I have a sapphire crystal on the way, which was the original plan to replace the crystal before i stupidly broke the stem moving the movement, which cascaded into the disassembly to get the stem out. The question now is whether i can get the movement back together and working properly if i source the missing 3rd or 4th wheel (how can i tell which one i have/need? does one have more teeth?). I tried to reseat the wheels i have and they don't seem to have obvious fitting direction or holes no markings on the plate etc. so probably a bit of trial and error.  

[automatico]

CITIZEN 7 restoration with watch movement Miyota 8200 | service PART 2 - YouTube

 

Servicing Japanese Movement Miyota 8205 part 1 of 3 - disassemble / แกะเครื่องญี่ปุ่น Miyota 8205 - YouTube

 

[jazziii]

i don't suppose a garden variety nh35 would fit to replace the 8200 assuming hands would fit it ? thanks for your help

Edited February 9, 2023 by jazziii

[jazziii]

1 hour ago, jazziii said:

i don't suppose a garden variety nh35 would fit to replace the 8200 assuming hands would fit it ? thanks for your help

i found the answer, no it won't work with the 8200 hands since the second and minute hands hole diameter is incompatible with nh35. easiest solution is to buy 3rd and 4th wheels it seems. In your view, what are my chances as a (fairly handy and careful) beginner, of properly reassembling the top plate with all the wheels in proper place so the movement works without destroying anything. Is there room for trial and error on reassembly or more likely to destroy gears if not on right side or in holes properly? thanks 

[freddy333]

I may have missed something, but why did you disassemble the movement just to replace the stem?
Once the hands/dial were removed, the stem release was visible/accessible. If that did not work, it should be fairly easy to guide the stem out with a small screwdriver while operating the release.

I have never attempted to replace Miyota parts with aftermarket Chinese parts, but I have a feeling, as Auto suggested, it would be alot easier just to replace the movement.

[jazziii]

1 hour ago, freddy333 said:

I may have missed something, but why did you disassemble the movement just to replace the stem?
Once the hands/dial were removed, the stem release was visible/accessible. If that did not work, it should be fairly easy to guide the stem out with a small screwdriver while operating the release.

I have never attempted to replace Miyota parts with aftermarket Chinese parts, but I have a feeling, as Auto suggested, it would be alot easier just to replace the movement.

the stem broke off beyond the movement edge, impossible to get a grip on it, had to remove the plate to access and push the other end (or did i have to?) anyways i did, and then lost a wheel which is a bummer because everything i removed except for that wheel is in a plastic container. i think im going to just buy a chinese replacement movement (or look for one in my collection of cheap chinese watches), move the hands and dial to the new movement, which will be another fun project no doubt, the challenge not to destroy those. my sapphire crystal should be here tomorrow, if the replacement goes well, i'll order the movement, if it doesn't (i.e. the crystal doesn't really fit) i'll have to reevaluate since too much time and aggravation. i have lots of watches so i'll get over it (i hope). 

[freddy333]

1 hour ago, jazziii said:

the stem broke off beyond the movement edge, impossible to get a grip on it, had to remove the plate to access and push the other end (or did i have to?) anyways i did

 

Is this what you see once the dial & date wheels are removed?

[horologist]

Great tutorial to say the least!  A good step by step exercise for the eager student! Will come handy in future to those wanting to repair a sentimental citizen left to them in a will, or when Miyota ceases production of these movements and parts!

 

As Auto and Freddy have already mentioned, I would just replace the movement!  They are so cheap, abundant  and reliable!  I would avoid the big bridge cramming every pivot and risk damaging a pivot unless it was the last resort!  Reason why the old seikos were so cheap and great!  Diafix, horrible shock springs, made them more pragmatic to just be replaced!  Neither the customer nor the watchmaker can afford it!

 

After this post I might take a double scotch even though I don’t drink!

[jazziii]

i am getting a new movement then instead of fiddling around with wheels, i did get the stem bit out and i have 5 new stems now useless, replaced mineral glass with sapphire I received today, my press worked great. So now the challenge is wait for the movement, and get dial and hands off and on without damage, i just ordered the right tools for each task. I also have to glue the crown onto the new stem and check if those seals are still effective on push crown (it is a dive watch of sorts). Only question is, crown is 4 oclock, does this mean the dial mounting is different than 3 oclock? also what kind of adhesive do you use for the stem to crown? thx 

[jazziii]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:53 PM, automatico said:

"I disassembled the movement from the back side taking the bridge plate off."

" I didn't realize that getting the bridge plate back on with all the wheels aligned would be so difficult..."

 

I know what you mean, these movements are a hassle to put together because of the train wheels, escape wheel, and reverser all crammed under one plate.   I detest them.  The easiest way is to remove the balance assembly first as this leaves more room, then put the movement together and install the balance last.  The downside is when r/r the balance, you risk tweaking the hairspring. 

 

"...is it unique part number only for this movement?" 

 

Yes, unless China clone parts will fit.

 

"i should try to see if i can find a watchmaker who has the missing part..." 

 

 

In my experience, unless you know a friendly watch repair guy, you could get robbed. 

This is harsh advice, but sometimes true, especially today with fewer repair guys around who are willing to help someone out.

 

You could buy a China clone of the Miyota 8200 (plus a 'no name' dial/cheap set of hands) and practice, practice, practice until you get the hang of disassembly/assembly if you want to learn how to work on one.  Then buy a new 8215 or repair yours and install it.  

China clone parts might fit the Miyota...but you would be paying $20+ for the parts when a complete new Miyota 2015 is only $10 more.

 

Some China clones are pretty good, depending on brand, prior handling etc.  The better clones are DG (Dixmont Guangzhou) or NN (Nanning) but the brands are usually not specified.  

Otoh, some are pretty bad too, it's luck of the draw.

 

When buying a replacement movement, be sure it is a 'Miyota 8215'  NOT  'Movement for Miyota 8215.'

Examples:

China clone...eBay item number: 394408095202     $20.15

Miyota 8215...eBay item number:293795133957    $29.99

Imho the Miyota is a better deal, but you still need to be able to r/r dials and hands without damage.  This requires practice, practice, practice.  And patience.

 

 

I need your advice again... I'm getting a replacement 8205 as you suggested, either clone or original, not sure yet. A couple of questions 1) some sellers mention 3 oclock date in their ads. My case is 4 oclock (3.8 oclock). Does this mean there are 2 different variants of movements with different mounting points, or do the dial mounting posts do the job of getting the crown to either 3 or 3.8 o'clock?  This is unclear. The mounting slots on my current 8200 with the crown position at 3.8 oclock are 6.3 oclock and 11.6 oclock (approx).    2) is there any higher end day date movement from miyota or chinese . that is slightly more $$ that would work with this configuration I have? Thanks for any advice. Note I can't use an 8215 style since I have day - date window on my dial (like 8200 and 8205). 

Edited February 14, 2023 by jazziii

[automatico]

"Does this mean there are 2 different variants of movements with different mounting points, or do the dial mounting posts do the job of getting the crown to either 3 or 3.8 o'clock?  This is unclear."

 

The movements are the same.  The date window in the dial is made for the day and date to show at 3. 

The crown being at 4 rather than three is allowed for by the dial foot mounting position on the dial.

 

"Is there any higher end day date movement from miyota or chinese?"

 

Yes, the Miyota 9015 for example but it is thinner than the 82xx and I do not know if a dial for the 82xx will fit a 9015.  The 90xx series has a day and date movement.

 

Miyota Caliber 9015 Watch Movement | Caliber Corner

 

"I can't use an 8215 style since I have day - date window on my dial (like 8200 and 8205)."

 

List of Miyota Watch Movements Watch Movement | Caliber Corner

 

Corrections made 2-15-2023 

 

 

[jazziii]

"The date window in the dial is made for the date to show at 4 instead of 3. " I don't follow. on my dial the day date shows at 3, and the crown is at 3.8. not sure what you mean? thx

[automatico]

 

"The date window in the dial is made for the date to show at 4 instead of 3. " I don't follow. on my dial the day date shows at 3, and the crown is at 3.8. not sure what you mean?"

 

My mistake!   I was thinking the day and date were at the 4 o'clock position, not the crown.

The dial mounting feet are placed on the dial so the dial mounts with the day and date at 3 and allows for the crown at 4. 

The crown being at 4 is determined by the case.

 

I will change the incorrect answer in yesterday's reply in case someone thinks I know what I am talking about and makes a mistake because of it.  

[jazziii]

Update: I finally managed to find the time to move ahead... I abandoned trying to diagnose my 8200 and got a 8200 clone and got it onto the dial no problem.

 

QUESTION: Unfortunately the day wheel isn't moving very smoothly (worse than the orignal 8200) using the stem  (date moves fine though)  Is there any way to fix/diagnose that?  

 

The other issue is the stem (and stem receptacle in movement by association) isn`t exactly the same design as on the 8200  which is very unfortunate- the locking notch not in same position on the new stem, so looks like i`ll have to use the flimsy stem that came with the clone movement.  not sure its long enough. I guess it could be worse. as long as the stem is the right length and diameter, should be usable.  

 

 

 

I could ditch the clone and get an 8200, but i'm at the end of my patience scale with this project...  

[Stevey2023]

Does anyone know if a Miyota 8200 can be used with crown at 8 o clock? I’m replacing a Miyota 8204 lefty in a Citizen Promaster NY-0040 Thank you