Chronus Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Hi, just to preface this that I couldn't find anything with a search. This post was triggered by the recent IWC Ingenieur Chrono in both SS and titanium, and the rumoured problems with the IWC Portuguese Chrono which uses an Asian 7750 copy movement (but I couldn't find anything with searches). Basically, I am wondering - and this will probably apply to both Asian 7750 copy movements and ETA 7750 movements - that moving subdials around from their original configuration ( 6: 12 hour counter; 9: running seconds; 12: 30 minute counter) may impact in long-term reliability. We've seen with the IWC Portuguese Chrono that the movement has only 2 subdials - 6 and 12, with the 6 having running seconds. I *think* this has had problems with some owners and would imagine that it comes from the moving of seconds to 6. Does moving subdials cause long-term reliability issues? Are these worth banking on, are just for short-term thrills? I would guess that the modified ETA 7750 would also use the same parts as for the Asian 7750 movement. Watches that I can think of with these layouts off-hand are: PAM212 (subdials at 3 and 9- though I expect this will be better); IWC AMG Ingenieur; IWC Ingenieur; IWC Portuguese Chrono (all these IWC's with 6 [running seconds] and 12 [30 minute counter]); PAM187; PAM188; PAM196; PAM253 (all with Asian 7750); RLX Daytona (already reviewed elsewhere by The Zigmeister). Sorry for the rambling lengthy post, hope it makes some sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uziuzi Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I am not an expert on movement reliability but my modest understanding from reading posts perfectly complies with yours: As soon as there is some movement of subdials you get into problems so stay away ! Even if there are only two subdials, I have read so much bad expeirences with the IWC Portos that I have convinced myself to stay away (though I love them). Same goes for the Ingy Chronos, although I have not seen any complaints yet, but thats maybe just a matter of time. On the upside, there are some very interesting gens using the seconds subdial at 9: - Hublot Big Bang - IWC Flieger Chrono - IWC Aquatimer Chrono - IWC Aquatimer Chrono "Cousteau" so these models (hopefully repped soon with the exception of the HBB wich has been repped) will hopefully have promising long-term reliability even with Asian 7750... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madonna Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I have 3 watches with 7750 modified to "sec at 6". 2 IWC Porto with asian 7750. One works very good, but only on the wrist, stops on winder. Keeps COSC standard on the wrist, but have stopped sometime during night so it seems like reserve is not so good. The other is unable to run. Was OK for maybe one month, but now stops after 10-30min on the wrist. Starts again if shaken, but is just not able to keep running. Neither have been serviced. One Daytona with ETA 7750 and full service. This one works without any problems. About 35-40h reserve. Runs maybe 10sec/24h slow, but is fixed, so fully possible to adjust. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 From a purely mechanical point of view, and from direct experience on the workbench, the only models I think are problematic - are those with Running Seconds at the 6 position. The issue is the extra 5 gears that it takes (correction that they USE) to move the seconds from the 9 position to the 6 one. I say "use" because you could accomplish the same thing with only 3 gears, but for some reason the decided to use 5 ("they" being the people that design this movement). There is also the way that they pivoted these gears, they run on flat metal to metal meaning the complete surface of the gear rubs against the brige, vs having them rotate on fine pivots and jewels... 5 gears, metal to metal rubbing, all adds up to friction, the enemy of any movement... The simple fix, use 3 GEARS - NOT 5, and use standard watch design for the gears, small pivots in jewels which has no friction and rotates with a light puff from the dust blower (ironically they use 3 gears and small pivots and jewles for the 30 minute gear transfer from 12-9, which is a intermediate load only), why can they do it over there, but not where it's needed the most... The basic movement heritage does not affect this problem, I have had ETA and Asian 7750's in for service, that would only run with the gears removed...and I have had Asian and ETA in for service, that ran fine with the gears in place...but generally, removing the gears fixes the watch. As for any of the other mods, i.e. moving the subdial 30 minute counter from 12 - 3 etc, pose no real running or reliability problem with the movement. It's the constant, and in this case, high friction load, from the 5 extra running seconds gears that causes issues. The solution is so simple, if I only had the ear of those who are designing and builiding this stuff, we could easily make a 7750 identical to the new Rolex layout, with NO reliability or running issues... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Well since dealers seem to have the ears of the manufacturers on aesthetic issues perhaps they could pass some of Ziggy's thoughts on simple tweaks to improve reliablility of movements to the manufacturers. Although from everything I have read on these forums changing movements is a much bigger issue with a 1,000 piece minimum for dedicated movements. On the other hand, if it caused fewer returns and used fewer gears it might be very much in their interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RiverwindMDS Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 From a purely mechanical point of view, and from direct experience on the workbench, the only models I think are problematic - are those with Running Seconds at the 6 position. The issue is the extra 5 gears that it takes (correction that they USE) to move the seconds from the 9 position to the 6 one. I say "use" because you could accomplish the same thing with only 3 gears, but for some reason the decided to use 5 ("they" being the people that design this movement). There is also the way that they pivoted these gears, they run on flat metal to metal meaning the complete surface of the gear rubs against the brige, vs having them rotate on fine pivots and jewels... 5 gears, metal to metal rubbing, all adds up to friction, the enemy of any movement... The simple fix, use 3 GEARS - NOT 5, and use standard watch design for the gears, small pivots in jewels which has no friction and rotates with a light puff from the dust blower (ironically they use 3 gears and small pivots and jewles for the 30 minute gear transfer from 12-9, which is a intermediate load only), why can they do it over there, but not where it's needed the most... The basic movement heritage does not affect this problem, I have had ETA and Asian 7750's in for service, that would only run with the gears removed...and I have had Asian and ETA in for service, that ran fine with the gears in place...but generally, removing the gears fixes the watch. As for any of the other mods, i.e. moving the subdial 30 minute counter from 12 - 3 etc, pose no real running or reliability problem with the movement. It's the constant, and in this case, high friction load, from the 5 extra running seconds gears that causes issues. The solution is so simple, if I only had the ear of those who are designing and builiding this stuff, we could easily make a 7750 identical to the new Rolex layout, with NO reliability or running issues... RG Maybe you can speak to angus that is the only dealer that is willing to help us in this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted January 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 The Zigmeister, I will contact someone I talk to almost every day and see if they are willing to talk to factories about this moving of subdials. As for existing models - is it possible for a modder/repairer/servicer (such as yourself) to correct the problems with the Asian (or ETA) 7750 with running seconds at 6 and modifying it to use jewelled gears, but reducing the 5 to 3 as you say? Perhaps this is the best solution in the meantime, though probably expensive. I am staying away from those IWC chronos and Daytonas until they are reliable. I have a feeling it is only a matter of time before the IWC Ingenieur Chronos start to be reported having problems. Thanks for everyone's input! (PS. I think that the PAM212/253 should be reliable - no date, one subdial removed, and another moved to the 3 position, but a low-load one. Still, is it worth paying the extra for the ETA 7750 version when it is still using Asian movement parts to transfer the subdial to 3? PPS. Watches with only running seconds at 9, such as PAM092 etc should pose no problems, no chrono functions and no pushers to start and reset chronos, so I expect these types are fine.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Ziggy, I will contact someone I talk to almost every day and see if they are willing to talk to factories about this moving of subdials. As for existing models - is it possible for a modder/repairer/servicer (such as yourself) to correct the problems with the Asian (or ETA) 7750 with running seconds at 6 and modifying it to use jewelled gears, but reducing the 5 to 3 as you say? Perhaps this is the best solution in the meantime, though probably expensive. If I had the tooling, parts and time, I would have been doing this all along...fixing them is one thing, making parts etc is another...the factories have the technology and expertise, with ETA going out of the selling beyond the Swatch Groupe in a couple of years, there is a HUGE market for quality movements...why not get it done right the first time??? Imagine someone tooling up and making quality V23's, and V72's, with the CORRECT markings etc, ubi would be in heaven... (PS. I think that the PAM212/253 should be reliable - no date, one subdial removed, and another moved to the 3 position, but a low-load one. Still, is it worth paying the extra for the ETA 7750 version when it is still using Asian movement parts to transfer the subdial to 3? I have seen a number of these with the ETA 7750 and the Asian transfer gears, and the transfer gears and bridges etc, are easily on par with ETA as far as quality is concerned. I have one of these on the bench right now, with the Asian 7750 movement for power, and the quality is excellent. Aside from a blob of grease on the mainspring and barrel which I cleaned up (which seems to be a common issue on the new 7750's), after it's out of the shop, it's going to run for a lifetime with regular service. The only problem I see on the NEW Asian 7750, is a bad cannon pin once in a while (1 out of 5), but I can install the ETA one in it's place and it's fixed permanently..otherwise, the Asian is good value for the money, I think it's great value for the money... My new Olympus Digital SLR is made in China, how hard can it be to make a friggen movement...surely not as hard as a camera body??? RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 ...Imagine someone tooling up and making quality V23's, and V72's, with the CORRECT markings etc, ubi would be in heaven... Add a nice, high quality EP400 clone to this list and I'd be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Add a nice, high quality EP400 clone to this list and I'd be At 36,000vph? Certainly sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RiverwindMDS Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 At 36,000vph? Certainly sir! That's one of my dream an El primero replica movement... a lot of nice watches will be out with that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted January 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 Got a reply, and someone will talk to the factory. Hopefully they will see the sense in using The Zigmeister's ideas I'm hoping some good will come of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simzger Posted December 16, 2008 Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 The other is unable to run. Was OK for maybe one month, but now stops after 10-30min on the wrist. Starts again if shaken, but is just not able to keep running. Neither have been serviced. I have exactly the same problem. Except that mine was only working for like 2 days. Does anyone know how to get a replacement movement (including gearing) for the portuguese replica? Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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