Usil Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Is it my imagination or have rep prices been bumping up about 75.00 USD on the average? Usil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 The dollar has been tanking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I agree that there has been a general rise in prices. I think that rep prices have as much to do with what the market will bear and the fact that the manufacturers are becoming emboldened as, in fairness, they try to get closer to 1:1 and actually invest in dedicated movement modifications. What is infuriating is that prices are going up on the Asian movement watches while original movement reps are becoming rarer and very expensive. As we see the new reps stretch the bounds of movements (Inge Chrono with 60 seconds at 12, upcoming AP with sub-dials in the right place - same issue) I am worried that we will own expensive reps with crappy movements. IMHO, we now have to think clearer as the reps are more expensive and there are likely to be additional problems. And now the rep makers have made it so we have to buy Swiss ETA chronos today if we have any concerns over the reliability of the Asian movements (due to the hands not fitting). This is the first year where I will think long and hard before buying the next rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Prices are going up......from factory to supplier.....allied to the fact that ALL dealers are finding that the crows have come home to roost......I think all dealers here worked on teh principle that comeptitive pricing was the way forward...failing to take into account losses thru' postal and customs .....returns.....new parts.....replacing faulty items.....all of those aspects cost money.....somebody has to pay somewhere along the line.....! Take a popular example.......my Noobmariner....! I sell it at 55.00 including shipping.....that approximates to $105-$110 depending on daily rate....minus 4.42 for PP ffes...it also includes standard shipping of about 300 baht = $9.00...which at $105 leaves approx....$91.00.....for that $91.00 I am expected to replace / repair / refund in the event of a problem.....not a lot of profit in there.....! Now let's look at a valid comparison.......imagine for a second that this forum didn't exist.......we'd all be on Replicacenter or Swiss-Replicas.....so let's look at what they offer in the same price range....! Global Replica Rolex Oyster Perpetual Submariner Watch. 40mm stainless steel case, black time lapse bezel, black dial, and Oyster Fliplock Bracelet. Water resistant to 1000 feet. Genuine Italian 31 Jewel Automatic Movement Smooth sweeping second hand, like the real thing Genuine scratch resistant, sapphire crystal Certified waterproof Large stainless steel threaded screws on band Solid end links on the band, not hollow Perfectly fitted, hand made polished solid links Genuine Luminox -glow in the dark markers Genuine laser etched dials and fonts Genuine 2.5x magnification on date wheel One piece screw down crown True 440 grade stainless steel Green Hologram on sticker on back Only opened with Rolex tool Serial number at lug at 6 o'clock Fully detailed back clasp markings and band $329...+ Shipping EXQUISITE REPLICAS Automatic movement Hack mechanism (second hand stops when crown is pulled out to set the time – standard feature on all genuine Rolex watches) Diver´s extension to watch bracelet Sapphire crystal watchglass Screws in the links, not pins Rolex logo etched at 6 o´clock position on watch dial Rubber seal at trip-lock winding crown Serial band/number on last link/lugs Fliplock oyster bracelet, steelinox clasp, serial number on clasp Solid back with characteristic Rolex green sticker Screw-in watch crown Luminescent hour markers/hands Waterproof (can be worn for regular swimming with no problems) All the appropriate Rolex markings in the correct places $239 + shipping That's just a couple....there are dozens.....and the prices shown are before you use the word Swiss......which takes you into a whole new rip-off arena,....! And you wonder why dealers here are upping their prices.....I can tell you....they're entitled to......the service they provide is far and away superior to most of these scam sites....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshot Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 but there are also some amazing reps coming out at great prices neil's noobmariner, the black SMP neil had, joshua's $120 pam 120, the $99 black SMP GMT that belial had etc... as long as you don't want complications it seems the asian (seagull?) auto works fine and i suppose if you loved the watch and it eventually died any of those could justify dropping in an ETA or miyota later on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I am sympathetic to dealers costs. I don't have a problem with price increase if the product improves. I am very aware and appreciative of how much better the reps are aesthetically. My concern is really about product increasing in price while the quality of reliability falls. At the the end of the day, whether regular, grey or black market, market forces win out. With higher prices and potentially dicier movements I am inclined to be more thoughtful when purchasing certain reps. At least here most dealers are fair and very responsive when there is a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 don't compare prices here from our dealers with global replicas and try to make yourself look better this forum was made so we would AVOID those scams. Don't compare yourself to SCAM sites and tell us that rising prices are expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfreeman420 Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 don't compare prices here from our dealers with global replicas and try to make yourself look better this forum was made so we would AVOID those scams. Don't compare yourself to SCAM sites and tell us that rising prices are expected. Keep in mind that two years ago there was no such thing as a $100 submariner worth buying. four years ago swiss replicas were advertised on all the scam sites for $1,000 ++. A decent replica with ETA movement cost about $300 to $400 from a reputable dealer. The competion drove prices down for about a year or so, but TTK is right. Dealers probably realized its not worth it to sell for such little profit plus the dollar is very weak right now, thus prices have come up a bit but are still lower than they were four years ago. Can't say that about many products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I agree - we get a very good service from our Dealers here ! You have to have this in mind when buying, you always pay for the service too ! When I look at the watches generally, without talking about specific brands or models, I am really convinced that I get more for my money than anywhere else. You can't get watches with Sapphire, S/S cases, Titanium Cases, ETA-Movements, good S/S-Bracelets, Buckles, Deployants, Swan-Neck movements, Super-Lumi Dials and Hands, A/R Coating on the crystals and many more features for these prices anywhere else - and please don't quote me some ugly copied No-Name watches in eBay now... But you get even more ! You get parts for your projects, you get something to work on, you get watches which you really like but are not willing to pay several thousands for it - and you get an international platform here to learn new people who share the same hobby and you can build realtionships with. If you don't like wearing a replica - paint the dial of an PAM black (just an example) and you still have an outstanding, reliable watch for a fraction of the money you would pay anywhere else... A genuine buckle (just a freakin' buckle !!!) from Panerai costs the same like a whole complete PAM here !!! Just think about !!! What do we have to pay for it ? A fair price - and if you want to increase the quality, your time to mod/tweak it. It's everyones own decision - I made it for me and I'm really happy here and enjoy every little piece, even if there are flaws and sometimes a little trouble (which our dealers always try to minimize/sort out !) Don't get me wrong - of course it would be better for us if the prices remain low, without raising - but we're still in a very good price range... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I'm fine with the prices rising - I will still buy it! but I know the rising prices are due to many factors that each dealer has to face in order to make dough. But my previous post is comparing those prices with those scam sites does not justify a price rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usil Posted January 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 (edited) From a pracitcal aspect, I have a upper limit to what I will pay for any watch. Paying a few hundred for a watch that sells for several thousand is a good deal as long as it functions and does not fall apart but I have a limit for my disposable income and this hobby. Drop shipping does not provide assurances for quality while hand inspecting and then shipped does to most extents because it allows for the removal of those units that fall far short of practical quality. So, if I want to increase my odds to get a trouble free watch as the prices raise (and I do), because the hassle of getting a lemon becomes prohibitively expensive and because I become less tolerant of imperfections and manufacturing defects, this steers me toward those dealers that handle and inspect the watches rather than drop shipping. Also, I expect to pay more for a watch with complications but standard watches, I would think, should not go up nearly as much. All of the above is from the perspective of a purchaser and collector that would like to buy more than just one watch. From the side of the dealer, there is no doubt the troubles these guys see and have to put up with. The type of crap that Neil recently described is simply not worth the effort. Add the price that has to be built into the watch for replacements (for what ever reason) and the seller needs volume to make it all work. If the prices continue upward, the great dealers that do drop ship are going to loose business so the raising of prices, while in part is market driven, will be self defeating and ultimately seek a level that will be self adjusting, just like any supply and demand market. So, the one thing that can make all of this work better (for the dealer and the buyer) is to decrease the quality problems we see and I am not talking about the nit-picking details described in a 1 to 1 comparison but rather dials, bracelets, bezels, and movements all working well and functioning as they should. I have seen the power of group deals where the dealer, the manufacturer and the buyers are all tuned in to creating a common goal. The dealers act as the go between, the dealers and prospective buyers are examining the proofs and the manufacturers are trying to get it right. That is not such a bad scenario so the system can work with some effort. I think that quality can be had but we have to continue to demand it at all levels, not just the buyers but the dealers too. Better quality works for everyone and will reduce the need for a price increases. That leaves the losses by customs and the mail systems. There is no recourse for these losses. When they are gone they're gone and the dealers have to build this into their business or they will go out of business. Back to my notice of price increases. Will I pay, on the average, 75 USD more for rep watches. Yes, but not nearly as many as I used too and certainly not on the first run and, you know, the used market is looking better and better. If a lot of prospective buyers think this way too, this hurts the dealers and the manufacturers - provides negative pressure on the market and can drive the prices to stabilize or even drop back a notch. Also, to a great extent, this is an impulse buy market. Anything that deters us from making that quick impulse buy will most likley kill the sale. Just ask any salesman, if they see his mark leave the showroom - Elvis has left the building. So, price will most certainly effect significantly this business as in any other. Just my two cents. Usil Edited January 15, 2007 by Usil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 While our dealers definitely need to make money for their services I do start the question the costs involved in these services... While I was in China I was hundreds of miles away from ShenZhen... and I was dealing with guys who spend 12 hours a day in a tiny rented booth selling these things... no such luxury as on the side with a day job, these guys were paying their bills with just this and paying rent on their little booth... these guys have no problems taking back broken watches, doing minor repairs etc... and all at prices about what people are reporting in ShenZhen... If these guys can get the connections to pull this off I have to wonder why it's such an expense for our dealers too... I mean these booth guys have a much lower margin, and still can get these services (replacing broken/defective items) with no trouble... I fully understand our dealers have other expenses to deal with such as loss due to shipping and such, but when a guy in a booth charges $150 for a watch our dealers charge $300 for and will replace hands/dials/whatever doesn't work within reason it really takes some of the heat out of the argument of expenses... And before anyone comes out wheeling that I am not there and that if I was a dealer I would know the real details, I am first to admit to that, but I don't think there is a flaw in my logic anywhere that if a guy across China paying rent in a booth in China but not in Shen Zhen, where business is pretty poor for this kind of thing (most Chinese citizens don't buy reps for thesmselves because right across the street they can get a nice dept store watch for SUPER cheap) can make a living doing this and covering breakages and such the same as our dealers then for $100+ profit per piece over these street vendors I can't really believe our dealers aren't still making a decent profit after accounting for their special added expenses. Charging what the market will bear I think is a completely legitimate argument and I couldn't blame a person for doing so, but for the dealers comming out of China specifically I just don't see that it can be justified this way. If they really are getting such high expenses for the same service the street vendor guy gives for dirt cheap then maybe our dealers need to look into updating their connections... obviously the connections to get this done at low prices exist... I like our dealers for the most part and feel they are making a fair markup on their wares, but I am never afraid to question the specifics if things seem fishy... I mean if a dealer comes out and say "I am charging more because I can and you will pay it" fair enough. If they come out and say "I want to make more $$$ for my work" ok with me. But if they say "My expenses are high and I must do this to keep in business" it makes me think twice... not becuase I mind paying more or I would have a problem with the last two statements also, but because I don't like it when someone pisses on my leg and tells me it's raining... I am not outright accusing anyone of this pissing/raining situation at the moment, but just saying that it doensn't hold up in my head... guy in booth and our dealers only difference in service in terms of cost is covering lost in customs situations... yet dealer needs 100% markup to do it and even then it's not enough? And remember 100% markup is not a 100% increase in profit margin... it's probably much higher than that. If the booth guy in China sells for $150 he probably paid $100-120 so $30 profit. If our dealer pays same but charges $300 that is $200 profit... he can loose 2 watches to customs and replace and break even. I have had dealers tell me flat out this is fairly rare with some exceptions (like Texas where many dealers simply won't ship to anymore) so from the horses mouth it's not a huge expense. I am not calling anyone out, and dealers no in China may have added expenses or not be ablet to get the same connections (in this case it comes down to something else... is it wise to even try this business froma location where your opperating expense is forced to be higher?) but I just say reasons are reasons, they exist and who is to say either way, but I for one will always apply the laugh test to any reason given for something becuse if it's true it will hold up and no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I'm fine with the prices rising - I will still buy it! but I know the rising prices are due to many factors that each dealer has to face in order to make dough. But my previous post is comparing those prices with those scam sites does not justify a price rise. Yes, I fully agree - Scam-Sites aren't comparable. From a pracitcal aspect, I have a upper limit to what I will pay for any watch. Paying a few hundred for a watch that sells for several thousand is a good deal as long as it functions and does not fall apart but I have a limit for my disposable income and this hobby. Drop shipping does not insure this and hand inspected and then shipped does to most extents because it allows for the removal of those units that fall far short of practical quality. So, if I want to increase my odds to get a trouble free watch as the prices raise (and I do), because the hassle of getting a lemon becomes prohibitively expensive and because I become less tolerant of imperfections and manufacturing defects, this steers me toward those dealers that handle and inspect the watches rather than drop shipping. Also, I expect to pay more for a watch with complications but standard watches, I would think, should not go up nearly as much. All of the above is from the perspective of a purchaser and collector that would like to buy more than just one watch. From the side of the dealer, there is no doubt the troubles these guys see and have to put up with. The type of crap that Neil recently described is simply not worth the effort. Add the price that has to be built into the watch for replacements (for what ever reason) and the seller needs volume to make it all work. If the prices continue upward, the great dealers that do drop ship are going to loose business so the raising of prices, while in part is market driven, will be self defeating and ultimately seek a level that will be self adjusting, just like any supply and demand market. So, the one thing that can make all of this work better (for the dealer and the buyer) is to decrease the quality problems we see and I am not talking about the nit-picking details described in a 1 to 1 comparison but rather dials, bracelets, bezels, and movements all working well and functioning as they should. I have seen the power of group deals where the dealer, the manufacturer and the buyers are all tuned in to creating a common goal. The dealers act as the go between, the dealers and prospective buyers are examining the proofs and the manufactureres are trying to get it right. That is not such a bad scenario so the system can work with some effort. I think that quality can be had but we have to continue to demand it at all levels, not just the buyers but the dealers too. Better quality works for everyone and will reduce the needs for price increases. That leaves the losses by customs and the mail systems. There is no recourse for these losses. When they are gone they're gone and the dealers have to build this into their business or they will go out of business. Back to my notice of price increases. Will I pay, on the average, 75 USD more for rep watches. Yes, but not nearly as many as I used too and certainly not on the first run and, you know, the used market is looking better and better. If a lot of prospective buyers think this way too, this hurts the dealers and the manufacturers - provides negative pressure on the market and can drive the prices to stabilize or even drop back a notch. Also, to a great extent, this is an impulse buy market. Anything that deters us from making that quick impulse buy will most likley kill the sale. Just ask any salesman, if they see his mark leave the showroom - Elvis has left the building. So, price will most certainly effect significantly this business as in any other. Just my two cents. Usil Yeah - everyone has to decide for himself and should think about it. I don't do any impulse buys and never did - I don't buy a watch just to "complete a row" when I don't like it really. I love Chronos - but don't own one at this moment, because I don't want to have trouble with the asian 7750 - and the swiss ones are either to pricey or I don't like them (like some Breitlings for example). Also I need watches which are at least basic waterproof (for simple swimming) - therefore I don't own watches which are dangerous for that (for example a seadweller with it's He-Valve). There are no Show-watches in my box - every piece gets it's wristtime and has it's purpose, but that's just my way of collecting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 While our dealers definitely need to make money for their services I do start the question the costs involved in these services... While I was in China I was hundreds of miles away from ShenZhen... and I was dealing with guys who spend 12 hours a day in a tiny rented booth selling these things... no such luxury as on the side with a day job, these guys were paying their bills with just this and paying rent on their little booth... I found these guys have no problems taking back broken watches, doing minor repairs etc... and all at prices about what people are reporting in ShenZhen... If these guys can get the connections to pull this off I have to wonder why it's such an expense for our dealers too... I mean these booth guys have a much lower margin, and still can get these services (replacing broken/defective items) with no trouble... I fully understand our dealers have other expenses to deal with such as loss due to shipping and such, but when a guy in a booth charges $150 for a watch our dealers charge $300 for and will replace hands/dials/whatever doesn't work within reason it really takes some of the heat out of the argument of expenses... And before anyone comes out wheeling that I am not there and that if I was a dealer I would know the real details, I am first to admit to that, but I don't think there is a flaw in my logic anywhere that if a guy across China paying rent in a booth in China but not in Shen Zhen, where business is pretty poor for this kind of thing (most Chinese citizens don't buy reps for thesmselves because right across the street they can get a nice dept store watch for SUPER cheap) can make a living doing this and covering breakages and such the same as our dealers then for $100+ profit per piece over these street vendors I can't really believe our dealers aren't still making a decent profit after accounting for their special added expenses. Charging what the market will bear I think is a completely legitimate argument and I couldn't blame a person for doing so, but for the dealers comming out of China specifically I just don't see that it can be justified this way. If they really are getting such high expenses for the same service the street vendor guy gives for dirt cheap then maybe our dealers need to look into updating their connections... obviously the connections to get this done at low prices exist... You're right - but those Dealers don't speak English THAT good, don't operate Web-Sites, don't operate several accounts to offer you easy payment services, don't ship your watch half way around the earth don't shoot photos from all angles for you, and mostly they don't have a clue of watch details and so on... You're right, our Dealers probably DO make more profit - but they also offer more service. You can get a burger at BK - or go into a nice restaurant, your choice. (I like BK, by the way...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 You're right - but those Dealers don't speak English THAT good, don't operate Web-Sites, don't operate several accounts to offer you easy payment services, don't ship your watch half way around the earth don't shoot photos from all angles for you, and mostly they don't have a clue of watch details and so on... You're right, our Dealers probably DO make more profit - but they also offer more service. You can get a burger at BK - or go into a nice restaurant, your choice. (I like BK, by the way...) Reply fair enough but it may surprise you that some of these street dealers speak decent English (again Chinese aren't the ones buying $100+ reps, it's foreigners who make up that market and that's the money market). Sure websites and payment services do cut into expenses, but these guys have to pay rent on the booth and don't have the luxury of drop shipping... I mean if you look at it fair and square things balance out pretty even on the expenses from with the execption of shipping related expenses... Our dealers don't have to house their own merchandise (I know some do but I am not speaking of those perse) and don't have to worry about being robbed or having their watches snatched up and run off with... they don't have to wrap up their store and carry home their watches every night, then set up again in the morning. They don't get stuck in a little booth 8-12 hours a day who knows how many days a week because their market won't email them on a blackberry (I saw the same guy every day for 2 weeks straight in the same booth - how much is giving up that freedom worth in terms of profit margin?). Remember it's a two way street, both have issues the others don't have to deal with... As for shooting photos I think it's been covered most dealers use photos provided by the manufacturers. On the other hand street vendors tend to have lots of glossy mags showing watches and binders of products they have to put together and keep updated... both are probably cheap or free and both take some man hours to maintain... kind of a wash... As for watch details, yes our dealers are better on that front and that's worth more... but then again we are still getting seagulls and "sythetic" glass saphire so it's a double edged sword there... it's nice to have a dealer who will tell you when the gold is ugly or that this particular watch is not good quality really but remember they didn't even have to stock that piece... no expense to them to offer that avice, and it means when they sell you a segull or mineral glass crystal you have now paid a large overhead to still get an inferior item. And now we are adding in our own assumed expense/value scale... is it becomming more expensive for these dealers to speak English well? Then how does it account for increased cost? I am not arguing that our dealers offer us values and services we should be paying for above and beyond the street dealers, only looking at why these expenses are going up... In a strictly business sense it's important to be open minded in terms of hearing or thinking things you might not like to... I mean remember, dealers are not our friends, not our buddies or family members... many of them are nice and some members have made relationships with some dealers, but dealers are businessmen and I always think it's important to keep your mind thinking clearly and logically with business... don't let emotions keep you from calling a spade a spade. This forum is here for us to protect ourselves and others from being taken advantage of... and it's important to remember that at any point the people we may neded protecting from are the very ones we trust right now... everyone should keep everyone honest in this game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 As for shooting photos I think it's been covered most dealers use photos provided by the manufacturers. On the other hand street vendors tend to have lots of glossy mags showing watches and binders of products they have to put together and keep updated... both are probably cheap or free and both take some man hours to maintain... kind of a wash... There's a huge difference in a colour copy of a Japanese gen watch catalogue and TTK's amazing photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 There's a huge difference in a colour copy of a Japanese gen watch catalogue and TTK's amazing photos. Yes I didn't make it clear enough but I am speaking of the Josh/Andrew/Silix/Pauls out there. The ones who are a whole different game like TTK and narikaa (the ones who really do stock things in hand and or take their own photos) fall into a different situation, not what I am addressing so much. And to be clear we are talking about buying watches here where Silix and Joshs pics do fine... it's nice that TTK has awesome photo abilities and we get the see them, but it's only tangential to the product. If you went to a restaraunt that charged 50% more for the same food as the one down the street but said "we polish or dishes to a super high shine by hand which adds cost that we must pass on" what would you say? I would say, "well fair enough, but if you are adding to your bottom line for a service which doesn't really relate to your product (taste of food/quality of watch) then that's your own busines mistake, not one I am going to pay for." And yes I know many restaraunts charge a buttload for basically plate polishing... and I would think most of us are the kind to see through that... if not we would be shopping at goreplica where you can get overnight shipping and the convenience of COD for a meer $800 markup... And I don't really think anyone is arguing this as one of the reasons for rising prices anyway... I mean TTK is the only one I know of who does such a spectacular job and I get the feeling he does it becuase he loves photography and has a history in it anyway... I can't believe he coudln't get the standard stock shots the other dealers do for cheap or free whatever the other dealers pay for them... We can go back and forth about details and possibilities and point out minute differences, but the big picture remains, our dealers make a very comfortable profit margin and it's important to not blindly accept what you are told about a situation... there is a lot that the general membership doens't know but there are somet things we can be reasonably sure of (like the price in ShenZhen or the price in my City etc - if our dealers can't negotiate at least the prices the guy on the street with a booth get's... well then that's an even bigger problem) and I don't think anyone should take it as an insult if what they say is questioned in respectulf and open manner... like I said, the truth will always withstand the laugh test so no one should be offended if their argument is put to the laugh test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Yes I didn't make it clear enough but I am speaking of the Josh/Andrew/Silix/Pauls out there. The ones who are a whole different game like TTK and narikaa (the ones who really do stock things in hand and or take their own photos) fall into a different situation, not what I am addressing so much. And to be clear we are talking about buying watches here where Silix and Joshs pics do fine... it's nice that TTK has awesome photo abilities and we get the see them, but it's only tangential to the product. If you went to a restaraunt that charged 50% more for the same food as the one down the street but said "we polish or dishes to a super high shine by hand which adds cost that we must pass on" what would you say? I would say, "well fair enough, but if you are adding to your bottom line for a service which doesn't really relate to your product (taste of food/quality of watch) then that's your own busines mistake, not one I am going to pay for." And yes I know many restaraunts charge a buttload for basically plate polishing... and I would think most of us are the kind to see through that... if not we would be shopping at goreplica where you can get overnight shipping and the convenience of COD for a meer $800 markup... And I don't really think anyone is arguing this as one of the reasons for rising prices anyway... I mean TTK is the only one I know of who does such a spectacular job and I get the feeling he does it becuase he loves photography and has a history in it anyway... I can't believe he coudln't get the standard stock shots the other dealers do for cheap or free whatever the other dealers pay for them... We can go back and forth about details and possibilities and point out minute differences, but the big picture remains, our dealers make a very comfortable profit margin and it's important to not blindly accept what you are told about a situation... like I said, the truth will always withstand the laugh test so no one should be offended if their argument is put to the laugh test. Yeah - I never said to accept blindly everything they offer, that's why I buy from different Dealers... Bought a IWC Jones from River for 79,- USD shipped (Sapphire and the "old" movement with real cnc-crafted bridges - not the stick on plates they offer now...) - that's incredible ! Got an Ultimate PO from Silix for 150,- USD instead of 220+ from the other Dealers - compared it side by side with a friends one (who bought it from another Dealer for much more) - exactly the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfreeman420 Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 You can't get watches with Sapphire, S/S cases, Titanium Cases, ETA-Movements, good S/S-Bracelets, Buckles, Deployants, Swan-Neck movements, Super-Lumi Dials and Hands, A/R Coating on the crystals and many more features for these prices anywhere else - and please don't quote me some ugly copied No-Name watches in eBay now... I agree 100%. Although our watches are replicas, we still get the features found in many high end watches for alot more money. I watch shop nbc regularly and laugh at the [censored] they shove down peoples throats. They have the nerve to pitch their privately labeled SWI (swiss watch international) limited edition watch at a retail of almost $3K. It is SS, ETA 2842 sapphire, no AR coating. Here is a link: SWI for $899 And they go on and on about the value. I wish I could get on their show and educate a few people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Yeah - I never said to accept blindly everything they offer, that's why I buy from different Dealers... Bought a IWC Jones from River for 79,- USD shipped (Sapphire and the "old" movement with real cnc-crafted bridges - not the stick on plates they offer now...) - that's incredible ! Got an Ultimate PO from Silix for 150,- USD instead of 220+ from the other Dealers - compared it side by side with a friends one (who bought it from another Dealer for much more) - exactly the same... It's good to hear that we are all still thinking for ourselves - I just hope that option remains open to us... it wouldn't be hard for one dealers to impliment a rise in prices that leads the others to follow suite... rising tide raises all ships Thread jack but did you review the Silix PO? I have been very impressed with Silix products and prices and would love to hear more about his PO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 No, I didn't do a review - cause it's just the same like the others... I like Silix too - but found out that their cheaper price sometimes results in a slightly increased number of, well, small issues. (Which they work out !) But overall you need a little more patience and have to work on your watches for yourself to not increase the price. For example: I received a nice Day-Date from them, but the Datewheels were both misaligned - well, they will send me new ones and I will change them. If you can't change it yourself you'll have to pay for it to be done or pay for shipping back and take again the risk of customs when they ship you out a new one... Again, everyone here has to inform himself and make his decisions based on facts. For a discount of more than 70 bucks (I am speaking of the PO) I am ready to work on some issues *IF* they occur... But that's just me - another members are happy to pay more and get a flawless watch at first attempt... (mostly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFlash Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Holy Cow!!! Three years ago I nearly paid $1000 for a scam site submariner. Their prices have really come down substantially. Is competition getting that rough its driving scam site prices down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 I will say that it is interesting that smaller-volume dealers on this board regularly undercut the big-volume dealers in prices, offer free shipping and take care of the same after-purchase issues. I guess one does have to ask, shouldn't significantly larger volume of sales = decreased costs of scale = lower prices all around? And yet it's the big dealers who are raising prices and claiming poverty margins and falling dollar problems. Seems all a bit counterintuitive. Which is why I buy my watches from EL and River anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Charging what the market will bear I think is a completely legitimate argument and I couldn't blame a person for doing so, but for the dealers comming out of China specifically I just don't see that it can be justified this way. If they really are getting such high expenses for the same service the street vendor guy gives for dirt cheap then maybe our dealers need to look into updating their connections... obviously the connections to get this done at low prices exist... Perhaps I got it wrong, but I see this as being a contradictory comment. On one hand, you are legitimizing marketplace forces and the use of supply and demand as a method to determine pricing, on the other, you appear to be suggesting that dealers out of China cannot justify pricing on this baisis. Doesn't make sense to me, but again, maybe I got it wrong. In a free and open market, commodity Pricing is ALWAYS determined by marketplace forces, i.e. supply and demand. Dealers charge what they do because they can. They compete with other dealers. If their prices rise too much, you will take your business elsewhere. If dealers cannot compete with other dealers on the basis of price (adjusted for other factors such as service, willingness to customized, etc...) they either lower their price or go out of business. The other factors alluded to in your post (risk, expense, etc...) are profitability factors, but they are not relevant to the price of the product in the market. As far as pricing is concerned. All that matters is competition, service, and supply vs. demand dynamics As for the indigenous chinese watch dealer selling his product for 1/2 of what our dealers sell it for, he/she operates at a marked disadvantage vis-a-vis our dealers, in that he does not have access to the global market place. That lack of distribution capability restricts the marketplaces they can participate in, and by extenson, their potential clients. The consequence of more product and less market is higher supply and lower demand which equates to lower price. That is the nature of a wholesale business. By contrast our dealers have access to wider range of consumers. Less product, more market, lower supply, higher demand, higher prices. Finally an editorial comment. Considering the risks, costs, and value provided, I really do not consider a 100% price market to be all that unreasonable, at least not for the products we buy. As has been said before, this is not Walmart. Our dealers risk alot.. as consumers it is unlikely we will ever run afoul of the law for buying a replica watch... worst case, we lose the watch and/or our purchase price... but the dealers risk is far greater. If High risk did not = high reward, who would be in this business? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 1.963 USD to the 1 Pound Sterling.. I'm happy with that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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