New balance, but gains 20secs/day crown up and loses 8secs/day crown down?

[Timelord]

Hi Guys,

 

I find the etachron balance to be a great design (with great accuracy) if factory set!!  Having a rotatable block allowing regulator pins to move in unison definitely beats the bending of regulator pins of other systems, especially  for isochronism !

 

Pity that genuine balance wheels do not come out already complete with bridge bing already factory adjusted, so I picked up a ew balance to replace in my bridge which went well snapping in stud into  stud holder etc! etc! Hairspring was a breeze and intact! Followed all the protocols of opening regulator block with pins at their widest opening with micro adjuster in centre!  Well in beat wit( beat error of 0.4ms!    
 

I thought - Great all is smooth!

 Wrong!       Timing is +6 secs/day dial up, +8 secs/day with bottom lugs down,  which is close BUT 

+20 secs/day crown up and -8 secs/day crown down  which is way off to me! I recall this as “out of positional rate”.  I am thinking that these things are not as easy to adjust even though all the hardware replacement went well.   I am wondering if anyone who has ever replaced a balance with hairspring has ever had this issue?  I am concerned that I may fix timing in these positions and screw up the other positions ending up with same problem in opposite directions!

thanks for any suggestions and comments!
 

[freddy333]

Did you overhaul the movement (including pegging all of the jewels) before replacement? It sounds like you have a gummy or worn cap jewel that is affecting timing when the balance is running on that jewel.

[Timelord]

7 hours ago, freddy333 said:

Did you overhaul the movement (including pegging all of the jewels) before replacement? It sounds like you have a gummy or worn cap jewel that is affecting timing when the balance is running on that jewel.

Yes, this all started after I serviced movement that had original balance and hairspring which  ran to +3, +5 to +7 secs/day in different positions!
 

What happened next! I lost the  case clamp and tried to make another one when I made it too long and whilst trying to fit it in, I slipped with screw driver straight into the hairspring distorting it in several inner coils!  That was the start of a huge headache leading to now!

I had tried to fix original hairspring but never was exactly the same  to what it was so I decided to replace it as they no longer sell genuine complete balance with bridges, unless you want to pay 2/3 of the price of a new movement!  I did have issues in past with cheap generic ones.

[freddy333]

Most ETA balances &/or hairsprings are still available, so why not just replace the hairspring or balance without the cock/bridge?
What is the caliber model?

[Timelord]

2 hours ago, freddy333 said:

Most ETA balances &/or hairsprings are still available, so why not just replace the hairspring or balance without the [censored]/bridge?
What is the caliber model?

Yes the balances come with the hairspring as one piece ( but not with the bridge) which I picked up from a seller in .France for USD35d delivered which was in genuine eta packet!  I just wished they came already attached to the balance bridge ( or balance kock)  already calibrated!  The hardest part is getting the brass block at the right orientation so that the hairspring breathes between the pins, but before that you need to get hairspring dead centre in the regulator pins when snapping stud into stud arm. If you don’t you get insane positional variation and no chance of regulation!  You will be chasing your tail endlessly! To get it right you really need a special tool to do this with some hour hand on the tool as a visual guide so you can see how far you turn it!  Not for the  faint hearted!

 

If it came like the generic ones as a complete bridge and balance/hairspring, one could avoid this headache!  I saw a complete genuine bridge and balance for a Breitling  in a yellow casing which the wanted USD85.  For a extra 40 dollars you can get a complete genuine movement!

To answer your question, it is a. Eta 2824-2! When they are factory timed, the accuracy is amazing almost chronometer standard

[mymanmatt]

Timing them is tricky. The brass piece on the bridge lever also adjust the speed. Turn right or left to find consistent speed in all positions. Then move that same lever in or out to speed it up or slow it down. Be sure your amplitude is sufficient before you do anything. It could take an hour or longer to time it. I assume you have a time graph and are not using kelo Good luck

[horologist]

9 hours ago, mymanmatt said:

Timing them is tricky. The brass piece on the bridge lever also adjust the speed. Turn right or left to find consistent speed in all positions. Then move that same lever in or out to speed it up or slow it down. Be sure your amplitude is sufficient before you do anything. It could take an hour or longer to time it. I assume you have a time graph and are not using kelo Good luck

Ditto ditto ditto! you can definitely say that again!! 
 

For the life of me, I do not know why these are not sold as a complete  (genuine ) bridge with balance already assembled as they do with the generic ones! Even  on the second hand market on eBay, I see that they disassemble them and sell them separately as a separate bridge and a separate balance!   

Yes they are definitely tricky to time!  Even more reason to avoid them as separate components because any watchmaker that would spend an hour to regulate them would have to charge big$$$$ otherwise he would starve!   As it has been said in the past, neither the watchmaker nor the customer ca afford it!  I have also noticed that professional watchmakers try to avoid this either because of what is involved or that very few actually know how to time them! I love the etachron and yes I agree that if timed correctly, their accuracy is almost flawless!  I like it even better than the goofy setup by Rolex that uses the micro stellar complication , where again you would need a special tool to time them and I do not see any special benefit!  I have a genuine 16610 that was serviced by Rolex in the past and timing was nothing special!  In fact  my eta noobmarier runs circles over it in accuracy!  

 

Therefore, I have come to my conclusion that if I screwed up a hairspring on any eta movement, I would just replace the movement and keep the other one as a spare!  Saves money  and sanity! Unless you are bored in a nursing home or in jail, by all means spend the whole day trying to time them!  I would rather work an extra day of overtime and end up buying 2 new movements for that effort!  
 

yeah, a good learning experience but also a very impractical one too, especially for non professionals such as myself!   You might be able to make your own tool to time them but again if you have nothing better to do!  
 

if it helps, the  following link is the only video  link I know that eloquently shows how to remove a balance from a bridge, replace it and time it! This guy is magic and amongst my favourite on YouTube !  He tells you what others don’t tell you!  Yet it looks like a hit or a miss to me! Worth watching if this etachron is haunting you!

 

 

[freddy333]

21 hours ago, horologist said:

the goofy setup by Rolex that uses the micro stellar complication , where again you would need a special tool to time them and I do not see any special benefit!

 

Rolex's Microstella system is not designed to provide a performance improvement, it just permits you to make very fine & consistently repeatable timing adjustments via a pair of nuts that are difficult, if not nearly impossible, via a  traditional regulator setup.

Yes, the system is finicky & requires a special tool (Microstella wrench). However, if you have the tool & know-how, the system allows for a much more accurate degree of timing than any other system I am aware of.  
Before I got used to it, I did not get it either. But once you get it, you get it.

On 2/22/2023 at 5:41 AM, Timelord said:

To answer your question, it is a. Eta 2824-2! When they are factory timed, the accuracy is amazing almost chronometer standard

 

Ebay 265389584078 or 254991498290

Startime & other watch parts houses sell them as well.

[Timelord]

2 hours ago, freddy333 said:

 

Ebay 265389584078 or 254991498290
 

The first one is exactly the one I bought which  has been a nightmare for me to adjust and regulate,  which was the main  reason for my post!  These are the balance and hairspring only !  Not the complete bridge and balance! 

 

I was referring to the genuine complete balance and bridge to do away with all this adjusting!  When I purchased my last one a few years ago it came already fully timed like the one in the attachment !  They are no longer available and you cannot do away without having to go through the headache of adjusting before regulation!  Yes generic complete units are available but they are a hit or a miss ( more a miss )!   The last generic one I bought., the roller jewel fell off!  So the most economical option i see is a new movement!  No watchmaker will just regulate the  adjust the balance for half a a day  without him servicing! Cheaper that  with replacement of two movements as Horologist has   wisely mentioned

[horologist]

5 hours ago, freddy333 said:

Yes, the system is finicky & requires a special tool (Microstella wrench). However, if you have the tool & know-how, the system allows for a much more accurate degree of timing than any other system I am aware of.  
Before I got used to it, I did not get it either. But once you get it, you get it.

 

Longines uses a similar setup with a modified eta balance where the two screws on the balance spokes are adjusted with some fine screw driver!  I am not sure which direction is for speeding up or slowing down but I believe it works on centripetal forces on the weight of the balance wheel when adjusted!  

[freddy333]

16 hours ago, horologist said:

I am not sure which direction is for speeding up or slowing down but I believe it works on centripetal forces on the weight of the balance wheel when adjusted!

Imagine an ice skater spinning in a circle. As she folds her arms in close to her body, she spins faster, as she folds them back out away from her body, she spins slower.
These centrifugal adjustments in balance wheels work the same way - as you move them inwards, the wheel spins faster, as you move them outwards, the wheel spins slower. I have never worked on a Longines with the type of adjusters indicated in your pic, but I have a good bit of experience with Rolex's Microstella system & it works (very well) as advertised.

18 hours ago, Timelord said:

The first one is exactly the one I bought which  has been a nightmare for me to adjust and regulate,  which was the main  reason for my post!  These are the balance and hairspring only !  Not the complete bridge and balance! 

The Etachron instructional video posted previously is a good guide. Did you try it?

[Timelord]

3 hours ago, freddy333 said:

The Etachron instructional video posted previously is a good guide. Did you try it?

That video is the best explanation and possibly the only one I have seen on the net which goes beyond the full 9 yards!  It confirms my long suspicion that TWO adjustments need to be made, both; with the rotation of the stud block  to get the gap between the regulator pins and then the rotation of the regulator block to get the speed of the bouncing hair spring.  It is the first time I have seen or heard on any watch information source about rotating the stud block for centring the hair spring which I had a hunch that the new design of the block was for this reason!  The older  studs were fixed by a screw which did not allow this fine adjustment!  This makes the etachron so special in terms of accuracy when compared to the previously used  fixed regulator pins ! 
 

My problem was figuring  out if there was an issue with the new genuine hair spring as I had made different adjustments of the stud block rotation to get the hair spring dead centre between regulator pins or whether I was doing something wrong falsely believing I had it right in the centre.  If it was pilot error then I know I have a good hair spring,  if there is some issue with the hair spring then I could be chasing my tail forever! I posted to reach  out to anyone having changed a balance on their etachron and if they ran into similar problems ! This is what can make or break a persons zeal to move on! 
 

I had made something similar to the tool described in the video, but my last adjustment and regulation has varying positional gains where the best rate is when watch is sitting up with bottom lugs at right angles to the table with a gain of +1 secs/day! 
The worst is crown down -25 secs/day!   

 

A big thank you to you and all others who have responded! 

[freddy333]

5 minutes ago, Timelord said:

My problem was figuring  out if there was an issue with the new genuine hair spring as I had made different adjustments of the stud block rotation to get the hair spring dead centre between regulator pins or whether I was doing something wrong falsely believing I had it right in the centre.  If it was pilot error then I know I have a good hair spring,  if there is some issue with the hair spring then I could be chasing my tail forever! I posted to reach  out to anyone having changed a balance on their etachron and if they ran into similar problems ! This is what can make or break a persons zeal to move on!

Getting the hairspring centered between the regulator pins is the key to getting these things well-regulated.

[horologist]

5 hours ago, freddy333 said:

Imagine an ice skater spinning in a circle. As she folds her arms in close to her body, she spins faster, as she folds them back out away from her body, she spins slower.
These centrifugal adjustments in balance wheels work the same way - as you move them inwards, the wheel spins faster, as you move them outwards, the wheel spins slower. 

makes perfect sense !  Simple high school physics v= r.w  where v is tangential velocity and w is angular velocity with radius r!

 

What puzzled me re: the Longines balance was that there are two nuts with a screw slot which are half cut on the ends!  I was wondering if it is a sliding change or a rotational change because of the half cuts in the nuts!  Maybe someone who has worked on these may sing out?  If it is a sliding change you would have to be incredibly skilled to get them both at the same distance from the centre as any microscopic difference could cause a wobble in the balance wheel or never get the timing  right either unless this process also uses a special too too!

 

52 minutes ago, Timelord said:

My problem was figuring  out if there was an issue with the new genuine hair spring as I had made different adjustments of the stud block rotation to get the hair spring dead centre between regulator pins or whether I was doing something wrong falsely believing I had it right in the centre.  If it was pilot error then I know I have a good hair spring,  if there is some issue with the hair spring then I could be chasing my tail forever! I posted to reach  out to anyone having changed a balance on their etachron and if they ran into similar problems ! This is what can make or break a persons zeal to move on! 
 

I had made something similar to the tool described in the video, but my last adjustment and regulation has varying positional gains where the best rate is when watch is sitting up with bottom lugs at right angles to the table with a gain of +1 secs/day! 
The worst is crown down -25 secs/day!   

 

A big thank you to you and all others who have responded! 

 

I totally empathise with you!  You are not alone? I also gave up on them myself! It can be a very laborious task!

 

Can you live with the results you have achieved?  Wear the watch and see how it goes with your life style movements! You will change positions as you move troughout the day, so the variation will change and  hopefully  for  a better average! If the variation is small I would stop playing around with it as you could make it worse!  I would stop playing around with that stud bock rotation as they can break  as they are epoxied to th hair spring

if it makes you fell better - consider that if professional watchmakers refuse to work on this, then keep up the zeal!  If you can get a generic complete bridge and balance  replacement, buy a couple of them as they would have been already factory timed and surely you increase the odds by 50% in getting  one that will not fall apart!   Sorry if this may sound cold comfort! 
 

As Freddy has said, getting them properly centred is the aim of proper regulation!  In some cases it is also luck like getting beat error to be exactly zero!!  Better still - Getting that winning number in your lottery changes your life forever!  I would attempt the latter!

[freddy333]

4 hours ago, horologist said:

If it is a sliding change you would have to be incredibly skilled to get them both at the same distance from the centre as any microscopic difference could cause a wobble in the balance wheel or never get the timing  right either unless this process also uses a special too too!

In some cases it is also luck like getting beat error to be exactly zero!!

I am confident that a properly assembled Longines can be adjusted to a fine degree. However, regardless of how 1 adjusts Longines' balance sliding screws, the procedure will be less fine-tunable & repeatable than Rolex's Microstella system, which uses a wrench with discrete adjustment indicators & a balance fitted with 2 pairs of Microstella nuts providing consistently repeatable +/-1 sec/day or +/-.7 sec/day tuning increments.
All other things equal, due to the subtle adjustments possible with a free-sprung balance, attaining 0 beat is very easy.