Building my first franken - questions

[CoffeeMods]

Hello everyone and thanks for an awesome forum. So much good content that its hard to consume everything and map it to actual and outdated information, and therein lies some of my questions.

 

I have done some Seiko mods from part up to full build, so i think i might have some of the techniques down. However i have never worked on Rolex before, but it seems like a fun challenge.

 

I would like to try my hands at a Submariner. Preferably with a gen case and gen dial. 

 

But before i begin I am trying to figure a couple of things out:

 

It seems like a lot of builds do not use gen cases and i cannot figure out why not? Is it availability / price of parts? Or is it because rep parts are so damn good? 

I’m also trying to figure out what would be a good ref to start out with in terms of gen part availability + rep parts compatability / availability. Preferably i would like a vintage model like the 5513, but i am guessing the newer models have much more fairer prices, is that assumption correct?

 

Dream would be finding a gen case (aftermarket insert / glass is fine), putting in a spacer for an ETA movement, fit a gen dial, aftermarket hands, crown. Is this doable? Would you advise me against it? I don’t see a lot of people doing it for some reason. Why is that?

 

Thanks you!

[automatico]

Welcome to the forum!

 

"I have done some Seiko mods from part up to full build, so i think i might have some of the techniques down."

 

Modifying Seiko watches is a good start.  Vintage Rolex watches have a few main differences though...case tubes screwed into the case, crystals held on the case by a pressed on bezel ring, case clamps/screws holding the movement in place etc. 

 

"I would like to try my hands at a Submariner. Preferably with a gen case and gen dial."

 

If it was me...I would start out with an aftmkt case and dial because a genuine 5513/5512/1680 etc. case and dial will end up costing $3 to $5 thousand USD.  Besides that, the case may end up being a piece of heavily corroded junk...or laser welded to the max.  Simply not worth it and most experienced project builders would probably agree, myself included.

 

"It seems like a lot of builds do not use gen cases and i cannot figure out why not? Is it availability / price of parts? Or is it because rep parts are so damn good?"

 

Same answer as above.

 

"I’m also trying to figure out what would be a good ref to start out with in terms of gen part availability + rep parts compatibility / availability. Preferably i would like a vintage model like the 5513, but i am guessing the newer models have much more fairer prices, is that assumption correct?"

 

If 'newer models' = 16600/16610 etc. the answer is most likely yes.  'No date' models of the same era also make good projects...but the case is not exactly the same as a 16610.

Almost no one will notice the difference though.

Two of the easiest vintage projects are probably the '1016' and '5513' mainly because of the large supply of aftmkt parts being available.

With the '1016' there is no date or rotating bezel to screw with, plus they have a simpler bracelet.

Same goes for the '5512/13' having no date but they have a rotating bezel and more complicated bracelet.

 

ETA 2879/2846 etc. are good slower beat (21600bph) project movements.

Rolex 1530 and 1560 are 18000 bph and later 1520/1570 are 19800 bph.  Very hard to tell 21600 from 19800.

 

Movement info...

bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements (ranfft.de)

 

Here is some info on a few rabbit holes I have fallen into...

Building an MBW Sub + 'shortcut' rlx 1560/70 GMT conversions... - The Rolex Area - RWG

 

Executive Decision... - The Rolex Area - RWG

 

[CoffeeMods]

Thanks a lot @automatico! Great answers to my questions. Maybe i should start with the 1016 and work my way up from there. Actually already had read some of your links but read them again with more understanding. I will contemplate and we will see next steps. Take care

[tomhorn]

My best piece of advice is research first. There are many ways to franken build almost any Rolex, but the key to success is figuring out your plan BEFORE you start buying parts. The worst thing you can do is start buying things without fully understanding what you need, and how far you plan to take the franken.

 

You will also learn a lot from those who came before you (automatico's post is a prime example). Things like which gen parts fit, which parts aren't worth it, which aftermarket movements will fit your case, or need to be modified.  All of these things (and many more) can make or break your projects.

With respect to Rolex frankens, I am generally not in favor of using gen cases or movements due to costs. Quite frankly, pretty much all Rolex parts are getting expensive and difficult to come by. We're rapidly getting to the place where the current Rolex reps are about to cross the rubicon into being as good as you need from a value proposition given the exponential prices of gen parts. I'm still sitting on a vintage Daytona project that just needs a v72. Have been looking on and off for years to find one not priced insanely. I may never get to it.

 

[freddy333]

Unless you are an expert in Rolex case stamping, it is unlikely you or almost anyone viewing your watch in the wild will be able to tell a steel gen case from the average rep. However, if your goal is to be able to fool an expert, I would go with a gen case.

 

Dials are a different story because even the most expensive aftermarket dials still contain errors compared to their gen counterpart. However, as others have indicated, you will pay dearly for a gen dial (& case). But if you have the funds, I would go all gen.

[CoffeeMods]

Thanks for the insight @tomhorn and @freddy333. Planning will definitely be key in this, something i understood early on with the moving market, change of rep part availability and just trying to gain the necessary information. 
 

For me I think the hardest part is figuring out if i will be happy enough with a rep case for example. Ideally i would wanna build all gen parts, but price and availability doesn’t make it fun, and to me that is a key aspect, i want to build something that i can be proud of and have fun building / searching for parts / researching. 
 

And thanks again, not just for the reply, but for all the information you contribute to this forum and community, i have read a couple of your posts and learnt a lot. 

[automatico]

"Unless you are an expert in Rolex case stamping, it is unlikely you or almost anyone viewing your watch in the wild will be able to tell a steel gen case from the average rep."

"Dials are a different story because even the most expensive aftermarket dials still contain errors compared to their gen counterpart." 

 

Agree 100%.

 

Looking back...

The best replica cases I have owned are:

Yuki 5512 from May 2014.

Yuki 5513 from May 2014.

IG 44 1680 from around 2011.

David Wong 'DW' 5513 & 1680 from 2010.

MBK 5512/5513/1680 from 2012.

Never had a Vn case.

 

Which case is the best for accuracy and quality?

The two Yuki cases but they are new so they will not pass as the real deal in new condition. 

The letters and numbers are very good too.

 

Which case is the most convincing?

The 'DW' 1680.

Why?

Because it has a genuine Lemrich 'Mark 1' dial.  The dial is the fooler, not the case.   Many other cases would suffice.

The DW case has slightly rounded case sides like an old watch might have after a few polish jobs...in other words, it looks the part.  

It also has a Rolex 1575, but it does not show and a slow beat ETA would be just as good.

It all boils down to a very good dial, a pretty good case, and a good period correct bracelet.  Imho.

 

There is always a catch, what is it?

All the cases above are out of production.