Anyone Else Think The Rep Trade Is Taking A Nose Dive?

[rsv123]

I agree wholeheartedly about the forums going a little deeper underground. When I first got into reps about 3 years ago there were no storefront websites and no blatant ads, just a few posts in the photo gallery and a nod and wink from the dealers. The higher our profile, the more likely we are to attract the attention of the gen community, the legit watchmakers and the payment companies.

I would say that last year (2006) has been an extremely good year for quality reps. Let's not forget: the PO (multiple versions through to ultimate), the Brietlings, the HBB, numerous IWCs, some good Tags + the promise of the Mille Miglia and Cousteau, and now in 07 we have the IWC 3717-01 - we have never had so much choice!

[Goochenbrau]

I think this is the natural rep collector progression...

Stage 1: You discover that high quality replicas exist, sometimes with Swiss movements and often very, very close to gen. Excitement grabs you (and your Visa card) and you proceed to fill your boots.

Stage 2: The excitement of buying 1,2 (or more!) watches a month wanes - you may even have a good rep of your 'grail' watch- and you start to worry over minor details, get fussy about movements and start making mods.

Stage 3: You enter a rep-buying sabbatical period, selling some of your less loved watches and continuing to improve your favourites. Probably either buy, or think about buying a gen or two.

Stage 4: You regain an interest in reps, far lower than stage 1, but also continue to consider gen pieces, sometimes even buying a rep before a gen to see how you like it. <-- You (and I) are here.

Interesting observation. I would say Im around stage two. I havent done any mods though... Unless you considering fixing my own date wheel, bracelets, etc by myself. But I also seems to sell of a rep immediately if i dont like it. And Ive owned gens before I got here. However, I certainly have learned a hell of a lot about watches due to finding this site. That seems to be the excitement for me, as opposed to the high that Phoband gets

And, Sorry guys, but I needed to put up a basic supply-demand equilibrium. The constant rising of prices is the result of the increased demand (not the industry taking a nose dive) which leads to a large quantity sold

[Richard Tracy]

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you already have all the watches that you ever wanted. I can say the same thing... well almost anyway. For me the rep collecting was all about getting the watches I admire the most... not to build a huge collection.

People can rarely respect what they already have. We always want more, better, cheaper, etc. I try to enjoy my watches every day... new and old.

I've been thinking about getting one expensive genuine, too... but I'm not sure I'd respect (or wear) it enough. Yeah, there's a quality difference. But with mass produced brands like Omega, Rolex, Breitling the difference in "feel" is not as dramatic as some people want you to believe. When you move to real high end territory it becomes more apparent of course.

I find it hilarious when some guys get their first genuine and all of a sudden they start looking reps down their noses... it's like discovering Jesus... quite pathetic, really. We all know the gens are better, they have QC, but they also have the 10x or 20x price tags... go to the gen forums if you want to be an elitist WIS... most of us here still enjoy our reps. We know the facts and we don't want to hear all that same blahblah about gen vs. rep quality over and over again. My father is a gen collector and I see his watches all the time. And based on what I've seen I'm not willing to pay 4K for just another nice watch. I'll eventually get his Rolexes anyway.

I find reps more fascinating for some perverse reason... probably the main reason is this community being so cool. Lots of good friendships. I have also been extremely lucky with the reps. I don't recall ever having any kind of problem with the watches I've owned (except one movement problem with a MBW watch... which was later fixed). That's why I find it amazing that some people constantly have technical problems with their reps. I wonder how many of these problems arise because these people buy their reps from dropshippers... or think they're watchsmiths and perform all kinds of hardcore operations on them?

I'd like to see this community taking a one or two steps into "underground" direction now. I wish we could remove the forums from the Google somehow... but that's for another discussion.

@Andreww: I don't think there's interest in "our own watch brand". You can get fairly good genuines for around $250 already. It would just turn out to be another "RWG collaboration watch", remember?

Bravo By-Tor,... I agree with your every word !

I think it depends upon which direction you come from,... If you have owned gens before, you really don't find them all

that much better than choice quality reps,.. and realize that the much higher prices are sales hype.

Though I have slowed down in my purchases, my reasoning is that I have become much more selective...

My list is still there, and the dream of my perfect collection, it's just that I now wait until they evolve into

'Ultimate' models before I make my move,... That is born of a patience recently developed,... as my kid

free in the toy store, or first to own one, stages, lasted for quite some time for me....

way past where they should have...

[andreww]

@Andreww: I don't think there's interest in "our own watch brand". You can get fairly good genuines for around $250 already. It would just turn out to be another "RWG collaboration watch", remember?

The RWG watch wasn't bad. The RWI watch? Not my cup of tea!

[richard_uk]

Bravo By-Tor,... I agree with your every word !

I think it depends upon which direction you come from,... If you have owned gens before, you really don't find them all

that much better than choice quality reps,.. and realize that the much higher prices are sales hype.

Though I have slowed down in my purchases, my reasoning is that I have become much more selective...

My list is still there, and the dream of my perfect collection, it's just that I now wait until they evolve into

'Ultimate' models before I make my move,... That is born of a patience recently developed,... as my kid

free in the toy store, or first to own one, stages, lasted for quite some time for me....

way past where they should have...

I have your ultimate watch

[Tim]

I think this is the natural rep collector progression...

Stage 1: You discover that high quality replicas exist, sometimes with Swiss movements and often very, very close to gen. Excitement grabs you (and your Visa card) and you proceed to fill your boots.

Stage 2: The excitement of buying 1,2 (or more!) watches a month wanes - you may even have a good rep of your 'grail' watch- and you start to worry over minor details, get fussy about movements and start making mods.

Stage 3: You enter a rep-buying sabbatical period, selling some of your less loved watches and continuing to improve your favourites. Probably either buy, or think about buying a gen or two.

Stage 4: You regain an interest in reps, far lower than stage 1, but also continue to consider gen pieces, sometimes even buying a rep before a gen to see how you like it. <-- You (and I) are here.

That is one progression. I, as usual, took another path. I started out with Vintage, to me most of the watches worth anything are pre-'76 at least. Basically that period between the late 50s and the mid-70s is the sweet spot for me because there were so many innovations tried during that period. I targeted my collection on what I termed early electrics or the ones right before the quartz watches. A lot of Hamiltons, Accutrons, and F300s in my collection. My holy grail is the Omega Megasonic.

I then started buying some gens to wear because the vintage watches are mostly for looking at. I have three Accutons that I will wear and all the others are tucked away in a vault. I got quickly disillusioned by modern gens however since almost all of them just shove an ETA movement into a case. The only gens that I will buy today have something special about them. My last watch was an Alain Silberstein for the overall design but the thing just has an ETA movement in it. I guess my problem is that I cannot afford a truely innovative gen these days since most are $15K+, ++, +++++. I think my next gen watch will be a Benzinger from Germany because the guy tears apart a watch and skeletonizes or engraves every single mm on the movement.

/Tim

Edited February 21, 2007 by Tim

[Tim]

I wonder if any of the group of talented watch experts that we have here would be interested in starting our own line of gen watches? We already know from our rep experience that we can retail a SS case/ Saphire/ AR/ Eta/ watch for about $250. This is far less than what the ADs are selling automatic watches, so why not start a watch company? I'm surprised that it it hasn't happened already!

That thought has struck my mind as well. When you get down to it the majority of gen watches are a fancy case of some sort stuffed with an ETA movement. Early value adds were things like perlage and geneva stripes added to the movement. Now however you can buy the ETA movement with perlage already done by machine at ETA. Dials are another example. Guilloche use to be added by hand as a way to add value. Now they just stamp them like a coin or, at most, laser engrave the dial. Not the same thing in my mind though most think it looks the same.

The problem is the brand name. Watches have a distinct relationship to the fashon industry and most of the value adds today are in how people value a brand in their minds. That Chanel outfit is worth about $20 in materials and $200 non-sweatshop labor. But Coco will sell it for $10,000 and people will not even blink an eye. Watches have their own set of label fanatics.

I'll give you an example. I bought my partner a Dunhill piece of sh*t quartz watch for $250 which I thought was still overpriced for a glorified Swatch watch. It had a nice band though so I made allowances. Dunhill wanted close to $4,000 for it originally. HA! So my partner wears it to a party we go to, and I hear people nudging each other saying that guy over there is wearing a Dunhill watch.... oooouh. All I can do is think "You idiot! I could wear something nice like a Glashuette near you and you'd be oblivious!"

So if you wanted to make a watch and call it Biffs Spezial no one would buy it and you'd be lucky to dump them for a price that gets your original investment price in materials back.

/Tim

Edited February 21, 2007 by Tim

[Richard Tracy]

I have your ultimate watch

Thanks but [censored] retired long ago... Richard T's ultimates however are Omega, Breitling and the 3 ending in 'C'

Iwc, Jlc & Vc...

By the way good to have you back bro..!

[Pugwash]

I'm at the stage now that is the "Accumulating watch-making tools" stage. One of my vintage rolex reps arrived with a defective 2836, and I think it's something to do with the keyless works and all I can think is ... I can't wait for my hand-removal tools to arrive so I can get into the front of the movement and have a look! Sure, I'm doing so safe in the knowledge a 2846 is on its way, so I have nothing to lose, and where's that Birdman Crystal Press? I have a gen rolex crystal for my 1665 ...

I spent a good part of my weekend filing down my crown guards, too. And getting a mirror-polish on the worked areas. I'm doing things now that I'd not have considered last year when I got into this hobby. I have no qualms about opening up my fintage reps and removing movements, bezels, etc. and will be on crystals, hands, faces very, very soon. Also, I'm finally considering selling some of the reps I don't wear. That's different.

Sure, I'll never be a The Zigmeister or on the same level as our more talented modders, but I'll hold my own. All this in a year.

[Tim]

I'm at the stage now that is the "Accumulating watch-making tools" stage. One of my vintage rolex reps arrived with a defective 2836, and I think it's something to do with the keyless works and all I can think is ... I can't wait for my hand-removal tools to arrive so I can get into the front of the movement and have a look! Sure, I'm doing so safe in the knowledge a 2846 is on its way, so I have nothing to lose, and where's that Birdman Crystal Press? I have a gen rolex crystal for my 1665 ...

I spent a good part of my weekend filing down my crown guards, too. And getting a mirror-polish on the worked areas. I'm doing things now that I'd not have considered last year when I got into this hobby. I have no qualms about opening up my fintage reps and removing movements, bezels, etc. and will be on crystals, hands, faces very, very soon. Also, I'm finally considering selling some of the reps I don't wear. That's different.

Sure, I'll never be a The Zigmeister or on the same level as our more talented modders, but I'll hold my own. All this in a year.

I am hoping to go this route too which was one of my original reasons for buying some reps. I want to lern how to work on them. If I could learn how to disassemble, clean, and adjust a watch and have it work again I'd be very happy. I figure that when I retire in another 15 years or so, it would be a nice skill to have to keep me busy and earn a little extra since I doubt I'll be able to use my retirement money to buy watches or computers!

A suggestion I found is that you can find some watches on eBay with ETA 28XX movements for as little as $30 brand new. I bought 5 Gruen pretenders (nice way to sully an honored name in horology) for between 30-40 bucks each and am going to use those as guinea pigs shortly. The shame is that the darn things keep perfect time, better than most of my 100x more expensive genuines.

/Tim

[Rxus]

Being new here I'm not excatl;y sure how my comments will be perceived...but here goes.

I guess it's safe to say that for most noobs stumbling onto the rep watch scene can go one of two ways.

1.If you love/adore/obsessed with watches it is a blessing and you will be willing to sell of your first born child for a few more watches.

2.If your just average Joe who wants to buy a $75 USD all "gold" Rolex to show off to your friends or impress a girl

i consider myself a 1. minus the child selling part...but i appreciate watches for their apeparance and how they complement one's style and an occasion, like say your just out and about the house doing chores you would slap a watch on your wrist for the sake of keeping time not soo much for looks.

But if your attending a wedding, bussiness meeting or a formal dinner you might be more selective with your watch choice as it will complement your attire and the surroundings.

Plus lets be honest if you had tons of money to throw away you coudl always buy the gen's or you could realize that those thousands of dollars could be better spent on your self or loved ones (or more watches)

[Watchmeister]

I don't know that it is taking a nose dive. It is just continuing to evolve as the high end grows. IMHO, folks like Watchonpo proved that it could pay to buy a genuine non-Rolex watch and have a factory rep it. Now it is increasingly looking like the standard for any better watch. As the rep factories have improved their tooling it has also enabled them to think outside of the box and make some fairly interesting reps even requiring dedicated movements. Unfortunately, the quality of the movements is often not up to snuff alongside of the aesthetics. And from my buying perspective that is the achilles heel of the rep industry. I do think we have seen the heyday of original movement reps. Those are my passion and better ETA's are in short supply. And yes, I mod most watches I buy. The movement is the soul of a watch and with a good movement I always feel comfortable that the rep can last a long time and "deserves" those mods. My buying habits have changed as have many who have already posted. I am more patient. I know what my 2-3 holy grails are for this year. I am sure I will pick up another 3 or 4 along the way. But that is a far cry from past buying habits.

In terms of the growth of new brands I am amazed at how quickly the rep industry has expanded. If you had told me a couple of years ago that there would be a high end rep of a Roger Dubuis or IWC I would have scoffed. Now it is the norm. And it makes sense. There is a finite amount of high end Rolex and Omega reps one can sell. I mention Rolex because they very rarely come out with new models. Now rep makers are often coming out with watches close to the time that the actual gen comes out. The improvements now come fast and furious - better dial, proper hands, AR coat. So patience is even more of a virtue.

Finally, I agree with those who prefer that RWG remained more underground. But that was true at RWG 1 as well.

[Tim]

@Andreww: I don't think there's interest in "our own watch brand". You can get fairly good genuines for around $250 already. It would just turn out to be another "RWG collaboration watch", remember?

BTW, is there someplace that I can read about the collaboration watch? I wasn't around for it, but it sounds like a hoot! The best of BBS flame wars; I have such fond memories of some of mine. The indignity, the injustice, the IDIOTS!

/Tim

[Richard Tracy]

Being new here I'm not excatl;y sure how my comments will be perceived...but here goes.

I guess it's safe to say that for most noobs stumbling onto the rep watch scene can go one of two ways.

1.If you love/adore/obsessed with watches it is a blessing and you will be willing to sell of your first born child for a few more watches.

2.If your just average Joe who wants to buy a $75 USD all "gold" Rolex to show off to your friends or impress a girl

i consider myself a 1. minus the child selling part...but i appreciate watches for their apeparance and how they complement one's style and an occasion, like say your just out and about the house doing chores you would slap a watch on your wrist for the sake of keeping time not soo much for looks.

But if your attending a wedding, bussiness meeting or a formal dinner you might be more selective with your watch choice as it will complement your attire and the surroundings.

Plus lets be honest if you had tons of money to throw away you coudl always buy the gen's or you could realize that those thousands of dollars could be better spent on your self or loved ones (or more watches)

Great post from a new person.... I say Welcome,.. a true Watch lover that can see beyond price hype

will always appreciate this place !

[Corgi]

I am fairly new at exploring these watches, but I'm having a blast getting various models that I like. I admit that I won't ever be able to afford a genuine Rolex... even a cheap one. and even if I could afford it, I'm so cheap I would never actually buy one.

For now I have a collection that would cost me about a hundred thousand dollars if I were to buy them genuine for about $1,000

They walk like ducks, quack like ducks, and make me never want to buy a gen - ever!

[Richard Tracy]

I am fairly new at exploring these watches, but I'm having a blast getting various models that I like. I admit that I won't ever be able to afford a genuine Rolex... even a cheap one. and even if I could afford it, I'm so cheap I would never actually buy one.

For now I have a collection that would cost me about a hundred thousand dollars if I were to buy them genuine for about $1,000

They walk like ducks, quack like ducks, and make me never want to buy a gen - ever!

Another great post,... I say we are the truest of watch aficionados , we pay homage to the best in styles,

and in some cases, functions while protesting against pricing that places them out of the reach of the

sane or super rich....

[nietzsche0904]

I think the upward mobility of our society takes a lot of people out of the rep collecting circles. For me at least, i will buy gens if I have the money, I don't intend to collect reps forever; but being a college student, my funds are limited. If i could afford it i would buy the gen, because reps have little or no horological value, lets face it, no matter how good the rep becomes, it is still an imitation and the makers of the rep are not responsible for the design.

[crystalcranium]

Another great post,... I say we are the truest of watch aficionados , we pay homage to the best in styles,

and in some cases, functions while protesting against pricing that places them out of the reach of the

sane or super rich....

Buying a genuine is an extension of the same passion that drives me to buy replicas. I love watches and my passion is more than skin deep. My replica collection included some of the state of the copy art as it exixts today and I loved and appreciated them for what they were, amazing and intriguing copies of some of the best looking watches available today for a small fraction of the price.

But lets be frank here. Replicas are what they are. Amazing as they might be, they still, as a previous poster stated, have little horological value in the real world. This isn't to say they do not have enough value in the minds of collectors to provide a satisfying experience, they do. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford genuines of modest cost and so...I buy them. The experience of owning one is different...but it still satisfies the same hunger. I love hot dogs and I love a dinner in a 4 star restaurant. I wonder how many of the "I would never buy a $3000 watch. Give me 15 replicas instead." crowd would actually stick to that mantra if they had the opportunity to acquire a high horology piece without impacting their lifestyle significantly. Sure, luxury items are overpriced. Is a Corvette really worth $60,000??? That doesn't mean driving and owning one doesnt get my blood pumping. When I look at the movement in my ML Masterpiece, with a loupe mind you, and see the incredible level of detail, my heart skips a beat.....sort of like it did when my replica GT showed up. I'm am in no way dancing and shaking my ass singing "All you can afford is a replica...nayh...nayh....nayh!" I love replica watches still. They will continue to be a part of my watch collection....just not a major part of the money invested.

[Watchmeister]

And here is a countervailing theory. A rep is not a rep and a gen is not a gen. A watch is a watch. Several of my reps after visiting Ziggy are now better put together than my gens. In fact, I have had more trouble with my gens then my better quality reps. The most troublesome watch in my household (other than $100 reps) is a $20,000 Breguet.

It is nice to own gens and everyone who can afford them should buy their holy grail. After all, it reminds you that you are successsful enough own a gen. Otherwise there is nothing to it. Make the money. Spend the money. When it needs servicing spend twice what the service is worth from your AD. This is based on experience with gen Rolexes, Breguet, Cartier, Ap, etc. And yes, I own gens but my pride and joys are the better reps.

And on the topic in this loop, IMHO, a good number of reps are improving dramatically aesthetically but are suffering mechanically as there are fewer and fewer ETA movements and quality control seems to be getting worse not better.

[ubiquitous]

I've sold off all but one of my gens...

Sure, gens are nice. But these days, I get more satisfaction from putting something together.

[crystalcranium]

I want to make a quick point for thoe who are arguing that there is a grey zone where genuine quality in certain brands is on a par with serviced mechanical replicas and there is little to choose between them. I agree your basic Hamilton or Accutron ETA powered watch is little better than a fully serviced, water resistance tested "ETA factory produced but non ETA certified" movement powered replica when it comes to keeping accurate time reliably. But there are still light years of difference in both the availibility of service and the quality of materials. The cheapest Accutron Chronograph I had on my wrist was still way ahead in terms of fit, finish and feel over the best chronograph replica I ever wore, and I had a legitimate company warranty behind it. Mechanical watches, genuine or replica, are not a practical purchase to begin with. Anyone arguing the practicality of collecting one kind of mechanical watch over another is jousting with windmills. This is still the elephant in the living room...a technological fact that almost killed them off thirty years ago. The mechanical watch industry is a homage driven luxury based marketplace (switching to this marketing saved the Swiss watch industry's ass!)....something it was not 50 years ago. If you wanted an accurate watch in 1957, you spent $250 on a Girard Perregaux and that was a practical purchase. if you wanted an accurate watch in 1977, you bought a $25 quartz Seiko and that was a practical purchase. For those arguing buying a $2000 genuine mechanical is a crazy act when you can get a reliable replica for $250 and have it serviced for $175 and essentially have the same thing....one can argue the rep guy is nuts too because none of this, replica or genuine mechanical watch patronage, is practical in light of affordable lights out accutrate quartz watches. We are all buying an impractical technology. We do it because we love and are facinated by the micromechanicals and the beauty of horologic art. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. Casting stones at the wisdom of someone who is a patron of this art in another tax bracket because he doesn't see the value in investing in the work you like to collect seems silly. It's all good....and it's all impractical. My son's dime store "Timon and Pumba" Lion King watch keeps better time than mechanicals I have that I've paid hundreds for. It's not about accuracy of timekeeping. It's not about practicality It's about passion.

[Richard Tracy]

If we speak practicality,... pure practicality, watches are for time keeping.

You can only compare cars to other cars, not to watches.

For example, you can purchase a $200 watch which will keep better time than a $200,000

timepiece, however try to say that about the technological degrees of automobiles.

Break it on down,.. you may marvel at the functionality of the mechanical timepiece that can handle ever

sophisticated increments of time, however those same functions can be handled, plus hundreds of more

with ease, reliability with electricity, and at a cost that a kid could afford.

So if you feel that the fact that these basic functions done mechanically is worth to you $20,000 or a 2,000,000

I say go for it, though must admit more than a bit of bewilderment.

If functionality is your fascination,.. quartz is the practical path, unless you feel that you need to support

the mechanical watch campaign with your hard earned dollars...

Look, I love the mechanical watch,.. hate quartz, but don't see the differences in them and our top end reps,

that justify the prices... and as for that 'feeling' of being able to afford one.... I can, and have but honestly

get a better feeling spending my money in other areas like my kids college funds or travel, which makes

me smile all the more when I look at my replica wearing wrist..

Watches are my passion,.. don't know why,. I guess it's because they mark the moments that we call Life...

Variety in them is what keeps me in this game,... where else can we indulge our passions in the many styles

and abilities of the watch world, at a price over the long term,.. less than one top end piece...

The satisfaction levels, once the smoke and hype are steered through, is for me, good enough, for

what is essentially a metal case with springs & spinning gears that when the clock stops,.. can't be

taken with us to the other side.

We are living in the Golden Age of Replicas… I for one, after coming out of the dark ages, am appreciative...

[crystalcranium]

If we speak practicality,... pure practicality, watches are for time keeping.

You can only compare cars to other cars, not to watches.

For example, you can purchase a $200 watch which will keep better time than a $200,000

timepiece, however try to say that about the technological degrees of automobiles.

Break it on down,.. you may marvel at the functionality of the mechanical timepiece that can handle ever

sophisticated increments of time, however those same functions can be handled, plus hundreds of more

with ease, reliability with electricity, and at a cost that a kid could afford.

So if you feel that the fact that these basic functions done mechanically is worth to you $20,000 or a 2,000,000

I say go for it, though must admit more than a bit of bewilderment.

If functionality is your fascination,.. quartz is the practical path, unless you feel that you need to support

the mechanical watch campaign with your hard earned dollars...

Look, I love the mechanical watch,.. hate quartz, but don't see the differences in them and our top end reps,

that justify the prices... and as for that 'feeling' of being able to afford one.... I can, and have but honestly

get a better feeling spending my money in other areas like my kids college funds or travel, which makes

me smile all the more when I look at my replica wearing wrist..

Watches are my passion,.. don't know why,. I guess it's because they mark the moments that we call Life...

Variety in them is what keeps me in this game,... where else can we indulge our passions in the many styles

and abilities of the watch world, at a price over the long term,.. less than one top end piece...

The satisfaction levels, once the smoke and hype are steered through, is for me, good enough, for

what is essentially a metal case with springs & spinning gears that when the clock stops,.. can't be

taken with us to the other side.

We are living in the Golden Age of Replicas… I for one, after coming out of the dark ages, am appreciative...

I couldn't agree more. I just get kinda bristly at the notion that several thousand dollars invested in a genuine mechnical timepiece is folly. You do get something more than bragging rights for that kind of money but....I'm not going to challenge anyone's perception that genuine watches are not a cost effective way of acquiring good timepieces. $200,000....$2,000,000....now that's another catagory but that's not what's being debated here. I respect replica lovers. I'm one too.

[archibald]

It's not about practicality It's about passion.

That I agree with.

As far as fit and finish goes, I think you may be a little gen struck. I can't speak about accutrons, but I can say that I've owned reps that have equal fit and finish to gen Omega, Muller, and Rolexes I've worn and far beyond my old Hamilton. My Tag Monaco is a cool wach, but the fit and finish is kind of nice-replike, frankly. If you ever make it to a muller AD (my favorite brand, aesthetically) you'll be apalled at the poor fit and finish people who make 20k watches are capable of putting their first and last names on. You can't make blanket statements about gen finish, I don't think.

IMO, the trick to buying gens is to find ones that are great relative values--then it really doesn't matter if yo spend $1000 or $10,000. Never will there be a gen Omega, PAM, or Rolex on my wrist--the craftsmanship is just not up to the prce tag. I have gen JLC Master Hometime and a Chopard LUC Pro Diver. The Chopard was probably overpriced even considering it's quality, but I guarantee nobody is ever going to ask if it's real. The JLC is as good a bargain as you can get in a luxury watch. Near Patek level of finish for a little over 4 grand.

[crystalcranium]

That I agree with.

As far as fit and finish goes, I think you may be a little gen struck. I can't speak about accutrons, but I can say that I've owned reps that have equal fit and finish to gen Omega, Muller, and Rolexes I've worn and far beyond my old Hamilton. My Tag Monaco is a cool wach, but the fit and finish is kind of nice-replike, frankly. If you ever make it to a muller AD (my favorite brand, aesthetically) you'll be apalled at the poor fit and finish people who make 20k watches are capable of putting their first and last names on. You can't make blanket statements about gen finish, I don't think.

IMO, the trick to buying gens is to find ones that are great relative values--then it really doesn't matter if yo spend $1000 or $10,000. Never will there be a gen Omega, PAM, or Rolex on my wrist--the craftsmanship is just not up to the prce tag. I have gen JLC Master Hometime and a Chopard LUC Pro Diver. The Chopard was probably overpriced even considering it's quality, but I guarantee nobody is ever going to ask if it's real. The JLC is as good a bargain as you can get in a luxury watch. Near Patek level of finish for a little over 4 grand.

A ground breaking escapement technology in the Omega Co Axial escapement or the rock solid chronometer performance of a 3135 movement isn't worth $2000-$4000? You cant get that reliability and accuracy in a replica movement no matter how obsessively you attempt to adjust it. The goods just aren't there.