The Legality Of Replicas

[Pugwash]

Selling, buying, Import, export and wearing one on your wrist?

This would make a great reference post for people throwing around assumptions.

That would mean deleting all the posts and starting again.

Besides, you just did it.

[Everythingape]

That would mean deleting all the posts and starting again.

Besides, you just did it.

hehe

No.. I mean you pick out what people say about their countries and edit it into your first post in the thread.. One paragraph for each country.

Like

FRANCE: Illegal, strict laws and they enforce them.

Import: Illegal, penalized with a marzipan root canal

Export: Illegal, penalized with a marzipan root canal

..and so on.

[OrangeSpoon]

I am planing to go to Italy next month.So if i wear a replica on my wrist i will have problem on customs;

yeah and the CIA have a satellite tracking you as we speak, watch out

[Raijor]

I keep reading posts in which people state what they believe the law in their country is as if it's fact and it can be quite confusing. It inspired me to start this thread and encourage people who actually know what the law is to post their knowledge so we can stop guessing and bickering over assumptions. Hopefully the title will make it easily found by searches.

I'll start.

Here in France, along with Italy, possession of a replica is illegal. There are trained customs agents who can recognise certain counterfeit goods at a distance. We have no right to retain goods that are known to be counterfeit, and the burden of proof is exactly the same as with stolen goods whereby it is up to us to prove our goods are neither stolen nor counterfeit. So, if you decide to state that owning a replica is not illegal, please do so with the caveat that it is only not illegal in your country.

If you get caught with a replica in Italy, for instance, you can be fined heavily. They're not afraid of making very visible examples of people to drive this point home.

I'm moving to the UK in a month. Does anyone know the actual UK law on owning counterfeits?

So, where's Bill to tell our US friends where they actually stand as opposed to where they think they stand?

Here is a quote from the Canadian RCMP (Canada's national police force) Web Site: "Possession of counterfeit items is not a criminal offence in Canada as long as there is no intent to distribute them" and another from the RCMP web site on downloading music. "Downloading music for personal use is currently not a criminal offence in Canada."

Investigations of counterfit items are as follows - from the RCMP web site: "According to the RCMP's protocol with Justice Canada, our priority for investigating counterfeit products targets commercial manufacturing, importation and distribution. Investigations at the retail level are generally dealt with in the private sector through civil processes."

Here is the link to the RCMP web sites where the quotation have been taken: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/fio/intellectual_e.htm

In Canada there is distincition between buying a rep for personal use and buying reps for resale in a commercial venture. The former is legal and the latter illegal.

Great topic for a thread. I have purchased and imported 16 reps over the past 5 months with no problems whatsoever. Canadian Customs has opened and inspected the contents two of my packages out of 12 that my watches were shipped to me. In both cases no issues and the packages were released and forwarded to me with yellow Canada Customs tape informoing me that my packages were opened and inspected. The last package came just the other day with a Cartier Santos 100 rep and the Bell & Ross 39 mm all stainless. Josh listed the package contents as: "Novelty watches"

I hope I add to the body of Knowledge here and members are helped.

[Guest TTK]

You certainly did Raijor....clear and very concise....!

[andreww]

Proud to be Canadian eh!

But, if you read my earlier post, customs do have the right to seize your watch as the importation violates intellectual property laws. The thing is that customs can not do anything with your watch. Only the RCMP is able to seize it. Its this red tape that basically allows you to ship to Canada with impunity.

Edited February 24, 2007 by andreww

[Raijor]

Proud to be Canadian eh!

But, if you read my earlier post, customs do have the right to seize your watch as the importation violates intellectual property laws. The thing is that customs can not do anything with your watch. Only the RCMP is able to seize it. Its this red tape that basically allows you to ship to Canada with impunity.

I am familiar with the paper you have used as your source for information. For people reading your post I offer a caveat. The source you site is a secondary source and is a private lobby organization working on stiffening laws against replica merchandise in Canada. Lobby groups seek to change the law to favour their group and in doing their job they will seek to illustrate the current laws as being wrong. The fact is current laws are neither right or wrong as they are open to interpretation. The fact is the CANADIAN ANTI-COUNTERFEITING NETWORK (CACN) has not challenged the current laws in court and has chosen to lobby the government instead. There is no position for them to challenge existing laws and win.

YOU SAID

"But, if you read my earlier post, customs do have the right to seize your watch as the importation violates intellectual property laws. The thing is that customs can not do anything with your watch. Only the RCMP is able to seize it. "

AND TO CLARIFY THE LAW AS IT STANDS

What this means respective the law: is that CCRA through the CBSA has not the authority to seize a counterfeit watch unless there is a violation of a trademark and the offended trademark holder has obtained a court order to enforce their trademark. - What this really means is that if a person in Canada has purchased a Rep watch - say a Bell & Ross from Josh and had that Rep shipped to Canada - for CCRA through the CBSA to seize that rep watch, Bell & Ross would have to obtain a court order in Canada that names the parties involved specifically and offers reasonable evidence in support of the claim of violation - once Bell & Ross has the order it must present it to the customs agency - without this court order no seizure is possible. CCRA agents can not open every package that enters Canada looking for the Bell & Ross replica hoping to find an offending watch as there are simply not enough resources available. Because it is a Civil matter Bell & Ross must do the pre-seizure leg work in obtaining the court order. No court order no authority to seize the imported watch. A blanket somebody in some city is importing an offending watch will not do. NOW - were this an importation of a few hundred fake watches with the intent to distribute the RCMP would be working on the case using its own resources to make a seizure and an arrest under criminal statutes.

[neuhoover]

I don't think Italians are quaking in their boots about their law. Not only was I in Italy for 2 weeks with my rep 196, in and out of customs, and in front of the Panerai boutique in Florence (see sig photo), but I noticed shop owners and even a garbage man wearing Rolexes. Yeah, please.

[Pugwash]

I don't think Italians are quaking in their boots about their law. Not only was I in Italy for 2 weeks with my rep 196, in and out of customs, and in front of the Panerai boutique in Florence (see sig photo), but I noticed shop owners and even a garbage man wearing Rolexes. Yeah, please.

Sure, but that's not the point.

[OrangeSpoon]

don't worry, just wear your rep and enjoy it

only dealers have any chance of major problems

whats the worst that can happen to a collector? bye bye watch(es) and maybe a fine

ooooo dangerous lifestyle, will James Bond track us down?

[Usil]

A friend at my office told me his sister was visiting Italy and decided to buy a replica bag. After the sale, she was approached by police and detained because of the purchase. The total fines was more than an original bag, several thousand Euros. So, no matter where we are, some are lucky and some are not. We take our chances. This is why I never take more than the watch I wear when I travel in Europe and usually it is my PO. Yes, many will say that they do and never had a problem but the point is - why tempt fate? As Neil and others have said - 'low profile'.

Usil

[Everythingape]

Florence, Italy -summer 2006: A norwegian 12 year old on a school trip is fined 1000 euros for wearing a fake 18 euro Rolex.

He had bought it a day or two before, and happened to be on the St.Lorenzo market (a well known rep market) when the police raided it.

He was arrested along with 5 other 12 year olds.

The article states the maximum fine for buying a replica watch in Italy is 10000 euros..

This kid attended a swiss school btw..

-shrug-

[Davey]

In the UK there are no specific laws (or loop holes for that matter) that will give the police powers to seize a replica watch as long as you are not invovled in the sale or trade of such items.... My watches are my hobby, I never seek to make profit or gain from them therefore I am not breaking any civil laws and feel quite safe wearing them.

What makes me chuckle is in other parts of europe you can legally posses firearms (I believe its law in Sweeden for the cadets?) yet you cant wear a fake watch

But then again if I could choose between replicas and having the target ranges re-opened in the UK, I know I'd be selling my collection in the blink of an eye to fund the purchase of some new toys..

Edited February 25, 2007 by Davey

[1976]

Just say you are wearing youre Ultimate evo or an Omega replica,who is going to notice you are wearing a rep.I think they look more for Pams and Rollys.

[Pugwash]

Just say you are wearing youre Ultimate evo or an Omega replica,who is going to notice you are wearing a rep.I think they look more for Pams and Rollys.

Off topic. It's not about getting caught, it's about what the law is.

[Tim]

But then again if I could choose between replicas and having the target ranges re-opened in the UK, I know I'd be selling my collection in the blink of an eye to fund the purchase of some new toys..

Boys and their toys....

/Tim

[hambone]

In the Peoples Republic of China, those caught manufacturing counterfeit watches are treated to a lavish dinner hosted by the Mayor of whatever city the offense has occured. They are then subjected to a bevy of young naked women who tie down the offender and subject him to various sexual indiscretions. These events are photographed and distributed to other potential counterfeiters so as to cause them great alarm and disuade them from their business practice. Seems like the law has been pretty effective so far.

[andreww]

If nothing else this topic has shown that most members have no clue as to the legalities of owning/importing replica watches in their own countries. You would think that knowing the laws would be one of the first things to learn when participating in such an activity.

[Guest TTK]

That would be too much like common sense.......a lot of passion here but little common sense...!

[Torques]

In the USA is is not illegal to own or purchase reps. It is illegal to sell them, like the scam sites, i.e Globalreplica, Bestswiss, Bluefakes, etc, too many to list here. As far as me selling one watch to an acquaintance or friend, that is a grey area. Nothing would ever come from it unless the watch you sold was sold as authentic and then after getting caught the seller claimed you said it was authentic.

[OiRogers]

US member here...

For many US members, their Home States law is going to be of the most interest. The federal government leaves many many things up to the states... It wouldn't suprise me to find that different US states = different laws re: reps.

In my home state (Ohio) it is illegal under ORC code 2913.34 Trademark Counterfeiting to:

Manufacture (attach or affix the counterfeit trademark) whether or not the goods are intended for sale or resale

Possess, sell, or offer for sale the machines to manufacture.

Purchase or otherwise acquire goods with the counterfeit trademark with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of the goods.

Sell, or offer for sale, with knowledge that the trademark is counterfeit.

Under Criminal Rule 41 or Chapter 2933 of the ORC law enforcement may seize counterfeit goods whenever encountered.

Owning of reps appears to fall to the civil courts.... however selling (even on these boards and person to person) would be a criminal offense.

As Pugwash has been kind enough to point out... it is illegal to smuggle the counterfeit goods into the country... yes, the dealer is doing the shipping, but at your request so the buyer has some culpability there as well. Anyone who says that it isn't breaking *any* laws to purchase a rep is deluding themselves.

[Pugwash]

In the USA is is not illegal to own or purchase reps. It is illegal to sell them, like the scam sites, i.e Globalreplica, Bestswiss, Bluefakes, etc, too many to list here. As far as me selling one watch to an acquaintance or friend, that is a grey area.

See, this is precisely the kind of thing I want clarified.

In the US, it is illegal to buy replicas from China. You're smuggling counterfeit goods, without forgetting that you're avoiding the tax/duty. If it were legal, Customs wouldn't stop the packages; they'd just ask for the unpaid tax and send you your watch.

Selling to an acquaintance is 100% illegal, so it's hardly a grey area. Sure, you're not going to get huckled up before the beak for it, but that doesn't mean it's a grey area.

[geekybiker]

Anyone who says that it isn't breaking *any* laws to purchase a rep is deluding themselves.

Well, if you're buying from a dealer/member in the US I can't think of any. Laws will have been broken, but not by you. (Individual state laws aside.)

[hambone]

See, this is precisely the kind of thing I want clarified.

In the US, it is illegal to buy replicas from China. You're smuggling counterfeit goods, without forgetting that you're avoiding the tax/duty. If it were legal, Customs wouldn't stop the packages; they'd just ask for the unpaid tax and send you your watch.

Selling to an acquaintance is 100% illegal, so it's hardly a grey area. Sure, you're not going to get huckled up before the beak for it, but that doesn't mean it's a grey area.

Acually US customs laws were revised 3 years ago and a person can import goods up to $800.00 without paying any duty. Most reps are less than this and and as far as bringing in counterfeit watches, customs will seize them as they find them, but there are no laws to proscecute the smuggler of single watches for personal use. For resale, then that is a punitive offence, subjected to prosecution. For US colectors the only concern they have is being unlucky to have their watch seized. It behooves all to clarfiy with their dealer what guarantee the dealer has in such an event.

[Torques]

US member here...

For many US members, their Home States law is going to be of the most interest. The federal government leaves many many things up to the states... It wouldn't suprise me to find that different US states = different laws re: reps.

In my home state (Ohio) it is illegal under ORC code 2913.34 Trademark Counterfeiting to:

Manufacture (attach or affix the counterfeit trademark) whether or not the goods are intended for sale or resale

Possess, sell, or offer for sale the machines to manufacture.

Purchase or otherwise acquire goods with the counterfeit trademark with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of the goods.

Sell, or offer for sale, with knowledge that the trademark is counterfeit.

Under Criminal Rule 41 or Chapter 2933 of the ORC law enforcement may seize counterfeit goods whenever encountered.

Owning of reps appears to fall to the civil courts.... however selling (even on these boards and person to person) would be a criminal offense.

As Pugwash has been kind enough to point out... it is illegal to smuggle the counterfeit goods into the country... yes, the dealer is doing the shipping, but at your request so the buyer has some culpability there as well. Anyone who says that it isn't breaking *any* laws to purchase a rep is deluding themselves.

Like Ohio's law states, it excludes purchase and ownership but beyond that (sell), it's illegal.