subzero1 Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 The only "proof" many will find acceptable will be when we both die. At that point, the consequences of either of us being correct will come to be. All you have advanced so far is the argument that "There is no proof God exists." This is very different than proving "God does not exist." Also, that first argument is subject to the counterargument that "just because there is no proof you find sufficient that God does not exist does not in fact mean God does not exist." I think we have gotten no where, typical for this type of discussion. There are many ways of arguing proof existence - the ontological argument, the first cause argument, the argument from design, and the moral argument are just a few of many. Augustine presented five of his own that many find convincing (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm#3) in the Summa Teologica, as mentioned earler. Each has been discussed by people much smarter than any of us, so I don't really see the point? I don't really want to go through the motions of something that has been done so many times throughout history. No one ever agrees on these things. Well, this is unfortunately one of problems with these discussions. Logic dictates that the onus of proof is on whoever asserts a positive position (god exists) and the onus of proof is not on the negative position (since a negative cannot be proven, period). Those are the rules. If you want to flaut those rules then you must also admit that you have abandoned logic. I'm not making this up, this is just how it works. As long as you are OK with saying that you will not rely on logic to buttress your points, then I'm OK with your "you can't disprove god" statements. But if you do want to have recourse to logic, then the onus of proof is on you. I'm not making this stuff up, really I'm not. Pick up any textbook on basic logic and it will say the exact same thing. So, if you would like to continue using logic in this discussion, you must move beyond just stating that god exists, and start giving reasons "why" he does exist. In other words if you say "X exists", you have to follow that with "X exists because of Y and Z". Then we can talk about the Y and the Z and whether or not they truly account for X. Now that would be a productive discussion. Far more productive than saying "X exists and you can't prove that it doesn't". I hope my reasons for asking for proof or evidence is more clear now. If so, and you agree, then we can move forward. If not, then I don't think I can be any clearer, and you might be right that it's simply time to terminate the discussion. I leave it up to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 The "proofs" of God's existence are probability arguments. I mentioned earlier the argument that uses the beauty and order in the universe. We have to decide if this is a product of random processes or due to the directing influence of a creator. Everyone has to decide for themselves what conclusion they draw. As mentioned above by Craytonoics, the five most important arguments are to be found in the Summa Theologiae (St. Admin Aquinas, not St. Augustine). All of them are not "proofs" in the modern, scientific sense. They give evidence for God's existence, but not conclusive evidence. It was said earlier, that the idea of God has been made up so that people could feel happy. I am not sure which religions have ideas of God that make people feel happy, but I am sure that this is not the case with the Christian idea of God. The Christian God sets up strict rules that He wants mankind to obey. Life is much easier without God. But if you are convinced that there is a God and that your (Christian) ancestors did not lie to you, then you have no choice and accept His rules. One thing is for sure, death is much easier for believers than for atheists. The problem of evil was brought up several times, but I don't think it was really discussed. Unfortunately it is not so simple as to say: Evil exists, therefore God does not exist. I could turn it around and say: Good exists, therefore God exists. Neither argument holds. The problem of evil has been discussed for many millenia. Christianity's answer is very simple: Freedom. Freedom is the much higher Good than preventing evil. God wants us to be free and freely decide to believe in Him. This also means to allow us to make the choice of evil. As my last point I would like to discuss if Christians are better than Atheists. To say itup front, I do not know the answer to this. What I know is that I am a better person because I believe in God. And I think this is the case for many others as well. Let me give you an example. These are the thoughts that someone had on March 30, 1981: "I looked on that tiled ceiling and prayed. But I realized that I couldn't ask for God's help while at the same time I felt hatred for the mixed-up young man who had shot me. Isn't that the meaning of lost sheep? We are all God's children and therefore equally beloved by Him. I began to pray for his soul and that he would find his way back into the fold." I have been in similar situations, not as serious, nobody ever tried to kill me. I remember situations where I calmed down and forgave someone becaue the line from the Lord's prayer came to my mind: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". President Reagan must have thought of this very line on this day in March of 1981. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Summa Theologiae (St. Admin Aquinas, not St. Augustine). Very sorry, I prefer Augustine so I have a bad habit of finishing his name once I hit the capital "A" on the computer. The city of God is one of my favorites; perhaps one day I will tackle the full Summa Theologiae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 (since a negative cannot be proven, period). Good we are getting somewhere, at least you are admitting it cannot be proven that God does not exist. I honestly don't have the time or ability to outline a proof of existence. As I mentioned in an eariler post, with links, they have been made by others far better at this than I. I just don't see the point in arguing poorly what someone has already done well. If you are interested in seeing such proofs, they are about 10 posts up. If you want to attack any of them that is fine. If you want to make some arguments of your own that too is fine; but I am not going to do a bad job presenting a good argument - I know when to say leave it to the experts. As Roland said all existence arguments are probability arguments, and every individual is going to be comfortable with a different level of probability. Some won't believe in God until he transports them to heaven to see it, and then they might blame it on a dream or illusion - some people will never believe at all. I think some such people are on this board, so I'm just not going to go into any sort of argument. If you want to advance a claim of your own, that would be probably more interesting. I know it is easier to attack an argument than to construct one; so if you prefer not to be constructive I understand. I have yet to see an athiest on this board make an argument with any real weight so it would be nice to hear one. I know your principle argument is that I have the burden of proving existence (i.e. you can't prove non-existence but can only point to the lack of proof of existence); but if you belive your claim so to be so true surely there must be some arguments of your own you can make as well as to why there is no God? Surely you have some we could hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subzero1 Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Good we are getting somewhere, at least you are admitting it cannot be proven that God does not exist. I honestly don't have the time or ability to outline a proof of existence. As I mentioned in an eariler post, with links, they have been made by others far better at this than I. I just don't see the point in arguing poorly what someone has already done well. If you are interested in seeing such proofs, they are about 10 posts up. If you want to attack any of them that is fine. If you want to make some arguments of your own that too is fine; but I am not going to do a bad job presenting a good argument - I know when to say leave it to the experts. As Roland said all existence arguments are probability arguments, and every individual is going to be comfortable with a different level of probability. Some won't believe in God until he transports them to heaven to see it, and then they might blame it on a dream or illusion - some people will never believe at all. I think some such people are on this board, so I'm just not going to go into any sort of argument. If you want to advance a claim of your own, that would be probably more interesting. I know it is easier to attack an argument than to construct one; so if you prefer not to be constructive I understand. I have yet to see an athiest on this board make an argument with any real weight so it would be nice to hear one. I know your principle argument is that I have the burden of proving existence (i.e. you can't prove non-existence but can only point to the lack of proof of existence); but if you belive your claim so to be so true surely there must be some arguments of your own you can make as well as to why there is no God? Surely you have some we could hear. Fair enough. My own belief, or lack thereof, falls along the story of Jesus and (doubting) Admin, who did not believe until he saw the holes in Jesus' hands. Jesus told him that he is blessed because he sees and believes, but more blessed are those who do not see, yet still believe. I have to see to believe, and I'm ok with only being "blessed" by needing to see, and not being one of the "more blessed" who believe without seeing. Hopefully that makes sense to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montydog Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Well a couple of days ago a guy came to my house and knocked the door.. When I opened he asked me if he can tell me some things about god and his greatnes etc etc.. I said No and closed the door... I was a bit unprepared but today I had my glorious chance.. While I was browsing to my lovely RWG and changing straps to my Pams.. the door knocked again. THis time I was prepared.. I opened and two elderly ladies asked me the following question: Does anyone in this 'house' believe in God? Anyways.. we should not discuss the greater evil that ruins this world but in a city called 'Gun City UK' with half the population carrying guns and murders very often.. well we are not CItade de Deus (a small ghetto in Rio) but it is quite hard in our area.. they asked me if I believe in God... My answer was the last two lines of the following paragraph... A quote from a magnificent movie adaptation to E.A. Poes Masque of the Red Death (staring Vincent Price) - Francesca: But you need no doors to find God. If you believe... - Prospero: Believe? If you believe you are gullible. Can you look around this world and believe in the goodness of a god who rules it? Famine, Pestilence, War, Disease and Death! They rule this world. - Francesca: There is also love and life and hope. - Prospero: Very little hope I assure you. No. If a god of love and life ever did exist... he is long since dead. Someone... something, rules in his place. The bolded quote was what I answered them.. I guess they will not visit again my house for a long period of time... or maybe ever again. In the words of that great American poet, Smokey Robinson: "I second that emotion" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montydog Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Here's the one that got me. I realised one day that if there were a god, he wouldn't only allow you to believe in the the one true religion based purely on the location of the birth of your parents. So, how come the Australian Aborigines didn't have a concept of Jehova until they got presented with it along with alcohol and syphilis? I absolutely agree. 99.9% of people in the world who have a "faith" share it with their parents. Doesn't that make you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montydog Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Good we are getting somewhere, at least you are admitting it cannot be proven that God does not exist. It's virtually impoosible to prove the non-existance of anything. That is not an excuse for letting your brain stop working and accept what you are spoon fed by people who believe in God but have never really considered the alternative. And as for all this "What is the purpose of like without God" crap, I'll say it clear. You are born. You live. You die. There is no purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratchpot Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 subzero1, my compliments on a very well argued position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythingape Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 'Atheism is a non-prophet organization' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Having been involved in far too many of these discussions over far too many years....I'm not going to elaborate any further......other than to say 2x things......! If there is a supreme being....who is / was responsible for all that we see on our planet......it most certainly isn't a God created by a small Judaic hill tribe in the middle of a barren area at a period in history when literacy and understanding was so primitive......and that ultimately led to the establishment of the 3x most arrogant / controversial / political / war mongering belief systems that exist today.....Judaism / Islam / Christianity......the problem is that every Christian / Muslim / Jew singularly fail to realise that they all worship the same tinpot dictatorial jealous fire and brimstone insecure in his own concept of existing as a supreme being......! As for the metaphysical debate......."you prove I exist.....figment of my imagination".....argument........when I come round your house and put my boot so far up your [censored] you'll think Doc Marten has started making hats...........then YOU'LL know I definitely exist......metaphysics schmetafizzicks......! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Please stop by any time; you have one of my addresses and if you are in the US I will be happy to provide the other 2 if they turn out to be more convenient. I'll even set up a web cam so the forums can watch me kick your ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) Yeah in your dreams Cray....the day you kick my ass will be the same day you prove the existence of God ...the tooth fairy and the Loch Ness monster......you don't know me.....and yes I will be in the States next year.....and may just visit you and fill your doorframe.....! Besides which.....regardless of what you told me......I wouldn't believe one word of what you say.......I don't need to prove you exist......not when I've already proven that you are a confirmed LIAR...hence Catatonic the Liar......! Edit by Admin: Personal Name removed Edited March 14, 2007 by TwoTone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Blowhard; I'll see you when you get here. If I have to ship you back in a crate I am not paying for it so I suggest you bring the appropriate postage with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) Well....as I wasn't specifically addressing you when I referenced the metaphysical debate ...not having addressed you by name..! But obviously your festering need for some sort of retribution towards me for proving you a contemptuous LIAR,....( which I see you didn't deny ).......your lack of comprehension once again caused you to issue the challenge......which I will quite happily accept.....why don't I just cut to the chase and send the metaphysical DOJ agents direct to your house....there they can check out the metaphysical aspects of your importing counterfeit items ( which may or may not exist ).....then you tell it to a metaphysical judge.....who can metaphysically decide upon your metaphysical punishment. Believe me you [censored] you have NO idea the ways in which I could make your life an absolute misery........knowledge is power....and that's something I own and you don't.......so tell you what......I'lll go one further......and send you a one way ticket to Thailand....you can enjoy your holiday and then I'll [censored] it up for you altogether,,,,,,,,,as usual.....you're all mouth and trousers and a LIAR to boot....first you decived yourself about the difference between 13 days and 7 WEEKS.......now you're deceiving yourself about your capabilities.......thanks for the laugh AGAIN.! Henceforth whatever the topic shall be......I shall always reference you as CATATONIC THE LIAR....! BTW......it's refreshing to see you perpetuate the Christian ideals of turning the other cheek and the advocation of violence.....guess it proves what I've been saying all along about a retributive and violent Christian God.....! Edited March 14, 2007 by TTK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Lets not forget about you LYING about me trying to scam you via western union; I just had my dates mixed up. Then there was you lying at RWI about your involvement with Luckyyy, the guy who taught you customer service. Seriously, take your hand-gina and [censored] yourself. I have no interest in visiting the hell hole you live in; if you want a fight buy a flight here. Im sure if you rip enough people off by sending them broken watches, ignoring their emails, and refusing to deal with it you can scrape together enough $ for a ticket. Only you would hide behind veiled threats of what you can do from afar; if you are a man get on the next plane and send me a PM with the flight details. Don't foget the postage for your crate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 BTW congrats on taking a decent intellectual thread and sending it to the pooper; I'm predicting a lock within the next 12 hours since it is hopelessly OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) @CATATONIC THE LIAR.....! Yeah yeah.....just as I figured.....a trumpetbum.........! You lied about the 7 weeks......I deliberately lied to you as a mechanism to bring you out and reveal yourself.....only you were to stupid to realise it.....and fell into my trap...and revealed to me who you really were...hence the reason I was able to identify you and prove your lie.......you stated that I "TOOK 7WEEKS TO DELIVER YOUR WATCH'.....which was a downright lie..i took 13 days.......I proved that you LIED......and your ass hit the floor.......and has been ever since........Mr ******.....! take your hand-gina and [censored] yourself.Well, given that I don't know what a hand gina is.......I'll assume that's one of your more perverse practices...and I'll leave you to it......! I have no interest in visiting the hell hole you live in; if you want a fight buy a flight here. And you think Amerexico isn't a hell hole.......you're getting [censored]ed by hurricanes and brush fires on a daily basis......tornadoes one minute........floods the next......then it's snowstorms.......the Antichrist is parking his ass in the middle of the USA at the end of his hard working day.......causing hatred of Americans wherever they go.......your citizens are frightened to get on a plane........fearful of eminent domain.....being [censored]ed over by their government ...a justice system that makes a mockery of the word justice.......you have an army that is getting it's [censored] kicked all over any theater of operations it's engaged in.....politicians that are as corrupt as [censored].....a news media that's trying to brainwash it's readership one way or the other..and you think I live in a hell hole......the difference is I speak from two distinct perspectives......having lived in the States and here in Thailand.....and I much prefer the latter......we had a coup recently.....not one shot fired in anger........life hasn't changed......it goes on just the same as it's always done.......believe me........when the next coup takes place in Amerexanada......you won't be able to say the same.....! In the meantime......you can continue to believe in fairytales.......the fairytale of Christianity.......the fairytale of Utopian America......and the fairytale that someday your day will come and you'll kick my ass.......so tell you what Dorothy....keeep clicking your heels and wishing upon a star.....! BTW....it was YOU who started handing out the threats........and you'll be glad if it does get locked down.......you were getting your ass kicked as usual by the other members......go re-read the topic and you'll see that you were arguing from an isolated standpoint....! As for coming to see you......why would I need to......why have a dog and bark.......don't spend your time listening to what I say......spend it listening to what I do......and for the sound of the knock on the door.......send me your Skype addy and I'll give you and call and bring you from a state of darkeness into the light of how I can and am about to make your life in Nashville slightly more hellish than it obviously is at present.....if only you knew...... Edited March 14, 2007 by offshore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Still waiting on those flight details... nothing like an internet tough guy. You deliberately lied that I had tried to scam you via western union; the only reason you recanted is that I have a spotless record of transactions with many members who called you out on it; then you lied again by trying to say it was a trap. Lie lie lie, huff and puff. Same [censored] different day with you each and every time. Then you lied about your relationship with your butt-buddy luckyyy, anyone can look the thread up on RWI for themself! You omitted the real reason you like thailand so much - you can get whores and little girls on the cheap! You hate america because our police actually enforce the laws against such things so you can't get your sick fill. I have yet to have a brush fire, tornado, hurricane, or any of that crap actually affect me (outside of New Orleans, but that was truly a natural disaster) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Don't have skype; I don't need to hear your voice to know you have perfected the art of sounding like a 12 year old girl on the phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Teah....yeah.....try and cloak it as you see fit.....the fact is YOU ARE A PROVEN LIAR......THE FAMOUS CATATONIC THE LIAR......it's there for everybody to see.....!' As for Luckky....I don't know the guy....don't even know his name...I met him about twice...once when he was with Maria....and the second time......he called me looking for some stuff.....that's the sun of it....what his business was....has nothing to do with me....so what's your point.....? You deliberately lied that I had tried to scam you via western union; the only reason you recanted is that I have a spotless record of transactions with many members who called you out on it; then you lied again by trying to say it was a trap. Lie lie lie, huff and puff. Same [censored] different day with you each and every timeYes.....I admitted that I LIED....after the fact of your LIE.....to make you angry...( which is waaay too easy )........and get you to reveal who you were.....( rememebr you didn't want to reveal yourself to me....( persih the thought ).......so it worked.....and I then showed you as CATATONIC THE LIAR......I haven't seen YOU admit that YOU lied......13 days is NOT 7 weeks...you had an agenda when you published that lie......just as I did when I published the LIE about WU..it was a trap......and it worked......thanks to your stupidity....! You omitted the real reason you like thailand so much - you can get whores and little girls on the cheap.. Oh and of course you can't get that in America can you.....slavery doesn't exist there does it....nor paedophilia.....get a clue you dumb [censored]....! You hate america because our police actually enforce the laws against such things so you can't get your sick fill. I have yet to have a brush fire, tornado, hurricane, or any of that crap actually affect me (outside of New Orleans, but that was a natural disaster) I don't hate America.....only dumb[censored] yanks like you......obviously you don't read much or you would know that Thai police do as much to stamp out that illegal practice as much as American police do.....only difference here is that the justice system doesnt believe in restorative justice and give then probation......go ask Gary Glitter.....but once again you follow the stereotypical viewpoint that shows the typical insular ignorance that dunb[censored] Yanks have.....not all Yanks...just the dumb[censored] ones....of which you are by far the Grand Wazoo.....! As for coming to see you.....I wouldn't waste my time......you've shown time and again that you're all hot air......and of course a LIAR......why sshould anyone believe that you could kick my ass.......you haven't so far.......what's gonna change....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Don't have skype; I don't need to hear your voice to know you have perfected the art of sounding like a 12 year old girl on the phone. Yeah....and of course you would be weel experienced in being able to tell......huh....! BTW....I hope you like the 2x new memberships I've created for you....with your 2x new e-mail addresses......what am I saying you can't log into the new e-mail addresses....can you.....you don't have the passwords.......despite the fact that they are registered with ALL your personal details.....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) Don't have skype; I don't need to hear your voice to know you have perfected the art of sounding like a 12 year old girl on the phone. Yeah....and of course you would be well experienced in being able to tell......huh....! BTW....I hope you like the 2x new memberships I've created for you...at 2x VERY exclusive websites....with your 2x new e-mail addresses......what am I saying you can't log into the new e-mail addresses....can you.....you don't have the passwords.......despite the fact that they are registered with ALL your personal details..a few more to come now......then some compressed images with PGP software.....! Edited March 14, 2007 by TTK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 I'm sorry, all I heard was some drunk, old, post-relevant, man on a rant again because he desperately needs attention and to prove himself like a 12 year old on the playground. The only thing you might have a chance of being remembered for is setting the world record for highest blood pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Yeah....and of course you would be well experienced in being able to tell......huh....! BTW....I hope you like the 2x new memberships I've created for you...at 2x VERY exclusive websites....with your 2x new e-mail addresses......what am I saying you can't log into the new e-mail addresses....can you.....you don't have the passwords.......despite the fact that they are registered with ALL your personal details..a few more to come now......then some compressed images with PGP software.....! Grown ups always resort to straight harassment. And like I really care? OMFG I may get some spam mail on occasion while everyone sees you are an ass. How old are you? 6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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