stealing money by bying reps?

[fotoman]

this thread is too long to read all of it, but let me ad. Imagine this - You saw those panerais on TV, and thought, wow, that looks cool i want to be the transporter.

Then you see one on the guy next to you on the subway and say - wow, what a piece of junk in person.

Your harming the brand because you are holding out inferior product under their mark. In the case of rolex all they have is their damn mark thats what your paying for. FOr every crappy rolex out there, theoretically your devaluing the mark in the perception of people in public

[kanerich]

You paid to promote it. If you're the kind of person that buys RL, you're a good advert. If you're the kind of person that buys fakes, you're devaluing it.

Yes, I'm generalising a lot, but I hope my point isn't lost.

I agree, as I too would buy a Rolex, but how many times are people on these very forums steered away from buying a Rolex as it'll be assumed to be fake.

And yes, the market isn't suffering, but how much better would it be without as many fakes as there are out there?

I suppose I'm saying that we, like people who pirate movies and music, should at least admit we're stealing a little. Don't try to hide the fact we're ripping these brands off, because we are.

Having said that, I'm looking which company to steal brand value from next. I can live with that.

I agree with Pugwash -- let's at least steal with our eyes open. You don't like to be a thief, then don't steal. I'm not judging people for stealing, functionally everyone steals. But don't steal and then invent some convoluted explanation about how you're actually doing the victim a favor, then you're being intellectually dishonest to yourself on top of being legally dishonest as to another person.

For luxury brands the market perception of the brand is a bulk of the company's value, so to say "fake Rolexes don't hurt the company because I wasn't going to buy a Rolex anyway" isn't really true. How much it harms Rolex is certainly debatable but as a practical matter they clearly want you to not do it and have the legal right to make you, which should be good enough. If a bum walks into your house and sleeps on your sofa and the police said "well, it's not like he can afford a house and you have plenty of space, this is really just about you not wanting him here and that's nothing," how would you feel? In any case it's pretty self-serving to injure someone and then say "oh, it's not that bad you big baby, in fact if you overlooked it it's like it never happened at all," which is basically all we're doing by saying Rolex is crying about nothing -- we're telling other people how they should feel about the wrongs we inflict.

The brand promotion theory when it comes to actual counterfeiting is pretty weak -- you want to promote the brand, fine, wear a hat.

Good men do bad things, and all bad things are not created equal. I don't think we have to feel TERRIBLE about buying reps any more than we have to feel TERRIBLE about doing lots of things that are probably not the right thing to do. But that doesn't mean you should try to turn it into a virtue. Only children think something becomes right because they do it.

[Tim]

Only children think something becomes right because they do it.

Well children, Hitler :hitler:, and Bush .

/Tim

[pubus]

^^ hehe I second that, two most childish children ever

If a bum walks into your house and sleeps on your sofa and the police said "well, it's not like he can afford a house and you have plenty of space, this is really just about you not wanting him here and that's nothing," how would you feel?

Althought i agree with you as I personally do feel I steal from them. All my actions are because I cant afford gen so I was trying just to know others thoughts.

Anyway its a bad example with this bum imo as non of us actually comes straight to AD to "borrow" any gen for a couple of hours

What?

I think only us Polish people could consider the following to be the most economical tool aiding in the destruction of a miniscule timepiece:

Actually I thought of a big road vehicule with a huge roller smasher, I quess I used a bag word anyway If youre polish I can PM you link to the thread

Edited March 13, 2007 by pubus

[Pugwash]

Apple computer. The original mp3 player was something called the Eiger Labs MPMan. If you look at the desgin, the iPOD was a blatent rip off of the concept. Apple is a notorious offender. Apple back in the early 90's was pressing a case against Microsoft for supposedly stealing its GUI. Did Apple come up with the idea of a graphical user interface? No, Xerox PARC labs developed the concept that Apple ripped off. Yet Apple sits there and says it came up with the idea and owns the "look-n-feel" of the thing.

You have no idea how wrong you are in your above statements.

Xerox Parc sold Apple the GUI, for a start. They did very well out of the sale.

The Eiger was an OEM version of the SaeHan system. The Eiger Labs MPMan F10 was merely the first on the US market and it didn't really do too well. It was the Rio 300 that was the first successful MP3 player and neither the Rio nor the Eiger had what was the one killer feature that made the iPod the success it was today: The click-wheel interface. It was this interface that is patented up the wazoo by Apple that allowed MP3 players to become as ubiquitous as they are today. To call the iPod a copy of the Eiger is ... well, I can't think of a polite way to put it.

[Pix]

mp3 wasn't and isn't a brand. It is a form of compression based on some very clever math. It has, as with all science, been open and transparent for some time.

Hi,

sometimes technologies have become so common that we forget they're licenced (who said Rolex ??! )

I had in mind that the mp3 compression technology was licenced to the Fraunhofer Institue and Thomson. In fact (checked on Wikipedia), it's licenced to Philips, Thomson, TDF, France Telecom and IRT... (its therefore a dutch-French-German technology, YEAH ! )

Sorry I'm almost off-topic. Jon fort, no offense in my post, I thought it was worth proving that even when we think we may be honest, we are just outlaws

Back to this thread : before buying reps, I never bought expensive gens. So I don't think companies like Patek, Bell & Ross, Montblanc, Tag Heuer (and soon Vacheron Constantin) lost money due to me. I continue buying gens at the same time, I mean affordable ones (between 100 and 250 euros). Before having interest in brands, I have interest in nice design and collecting watches, whatever they are. I would never buy an awful gen Rolex, just because it's a Rolex

[Pugwash]

I had in mind that the mp3 compression technology was licenced to the Fraunhofer Institue and Thomson.

Whereas anyone that remembers the early days of MP3 piracy would be able to tell you that MP3 was invented by the clever Germans at the Fraunhofer Society. They would also be able to tell you it's not called MPEG3, contrary to popular belief, but is MPEG1-Layer3.

Early pirates remember that it's Fraunhofer, because the Codec most commonly used on Windows was the pirated Fraunhofer one.

[Pix]

They still supply some software (I recently saw a player from them, compatible with "mp3 pro").

BTW, when I said awful Rolex, I was meaning the design (not the quality...)

I should have said... ugly, to avoid misunderstanding

[pubus]

I would never buy an awful gen Rolex, just because it's a Rolex

good point but believe me, many people would

[Pix]

good point but believe me, many people would

Even this one ?

[kanerich]

Anyway its a bad example with this bum imo as non of us actually comes straight to AD to "borrow" any gen for a couple of hours

Actually I thought of a big road vehicule with a huge roller smasher, I quess I used a bag word anyway If youre polish I can PM you link to the thread

I think you misconstrue my bum analogy. By your reasoning it's OK for someone to steal another person's identity (wear a rep), as long as they don't physically kidnap that person (steal a gen), which is not really true (don't get all worked up, I'm not equating rep wearing to identity theft except in an abstract legal sense!). Anyway, all I was saying is that as a general rule most legal systems accept that the property or rights owner gets to choose whether to give, sell or share, it's not for individuals to decide it's "okay" to take other people's stuff or rights. This is true whether we're talking about the right to live in your house or to put your trademark on stuff. Now as a practical matter of course people do just that all the time -- I don't dispute that. But that thing they do all the time is more or less still just stealing (or trespass or rights infringement or whatever, if you want to get technical).

I think we basically agree -- obviously I don't think owning reps is anything to lose sleep over. There are a lot worse things self-defined regular people do -- I am probably not the only one with friends who do illegal drugs, cheat on taxes, drive when wasted, cheat on their wives and girlfriends, do all of the above on Saturday and go to church on Sunday, stuff most people agree on principle one probably shouldn't do . . . but it happens and I am happy to let it slide unless truly stupid and unnecessary risks are involved. However, while I would be really sorry if any of my friends got in legal trouble for any of the above, I can't claim it's would be a fundamental injustice if they did.

And of course people can get into all kinds of philosophical arguments about how fighting Rolex in particular or the western industrialist hegemony in general or the unfair IP laws of The Man designed to protect all of the above is the right thing to do, but that's way too heavy for me. So, if you live in a country that is antagonistic to western laws and ideology and thus you feel completely justified in stealing all the IP you want, I'm not going to argue with you about it.

[TeeJay]

Yes, you're devaluing the brand.

The 'value' of the brand is artificial. Prestige is nothing more than popularity of said brand. It does not actually make that product any better than another similar product.

I don't think we are taking money away from genuine brands. If people can afford gens they will buy them. I never thought of purchasing an expensive watch until I started buying reps. I am now considering the purchase of my first Breitling.

I don't think reps are taking money away from gen brands. Personally, I would not buy a gen watch even if I could afford to, because I do not feel they are worth that price, they are afterall, only a product manufactured to tell the time, so that is money the gen brand would never see. Does a gen Rolex keep better time than a rep Rolex? My Planet Ocean is no-where near the grade of accuracy as those available through the dealers here, but, in terms of an automatic time-keeper, it kept time to +6 seconds a day, so that is within COSC standards. So what does the extra price get? Certain specific details? I actually prefer the inaccuracies of my PO than the gen one, so why pay for details I don't actually like?...

You paid to promote it. If you're the kind of person that buys RL, you're a good advert. If you're the kind of person that buys fakes, you're devaluing it.

But either way, rep or gen, if a person is wearing a product with a brand name, they are still technically promoting that product. As an article on reps said, you can't really buy 'fake' watches anymore, where a Roley is a bit like a Rolex, but replicas which have recreated the details of the original, so even if someone is wearing a rep, to all intents and purposes, they are wearing and promoting the gen brand.

I agree, as I too would buy a Rolex, but how many times are people on these very forums steered away from buying a Rolex as it'll be assumed to be fake.

It depends on the situation. I advised someone not to buy a rep Rolex as a graduation present for his neice, because if she was called out as wearing a rep, it would devalue her gift. If an adult chooses to wear a rep, they run the risk of getting called out, and if they don't want to get called out, don't wear the watch. I read someone said that their boss bought a Rolex but his friends kept asking if it was a fake, so he got rid of it. This was a guy who collected vintage Ferraris. To think someone who can afford vintage cars could not afford a high end watch is just ludicrous. My reason for steering people away from Rolex is that I have found Omega watches to be better, in terms of dial visibility, having a well machined clasp, not flimsy stamped metal.

Nothing to do with it 'passing' as genuine, just looking at it purely as a better manufactured product.

And yes, the market isn't suffering, but how much better would it be without as many fakes as there are out there?

I suppose I'm saying that we, like people who pirate movies and music, should at least admit we're stealing a little. Don't try to hide the fact we're ripping these brands off, because we are.

Having said that, I'm looking which company to steal brand value from next. I can live with that.

Even if the reps didn't exist, the people who buy gens (for whatever reason) still would likely not buy a gen.

I agree, we are ripping the brands off, but, I feel that those gen brands are a rip off, so it's a vicious circle where someone somewhere is getting ripped off either way

[chubbchubb]

I think Kanerich has summed it up best and I agree 100% with what he wrote.

It is natural that as buyers of reps we are trying to find little excuses for what we are doing here and for some strange reason stealing Intellectual Property is widely regarded as being "not as bad" as stealing someone’s "hard" property (i.e. car). All of the kids who download movies and music on torrent and don't loose one minute of sleep about it, would cry "foul" if anyone stole their ipod or mobile phone.

There is also this stupid wannabe-Robin-Hood concept that the big companies (like Rolex) may be ripped off because they are big. In this case, size does not matter. Weather you are a small programmer or inventor, who's invention is being stolen by a big company or you're a big company, who's invention is being stolen by a small guy... both is illegal and not ok.

We all do illegal things from time to time - it's a fact of life. Certainly the lawyer who hunts rep manufacturers for Rolex will be caught speeding one day. Or maybe he uses some questionable tax scheme to save a buck. Or he'll cheat his wife. We're human. But to try and argue (no matter how eloquent and persuasive) that this is perfectly legal is only BS.

[1976]

Who is stealing who; When i bought my gen Omegas and Tags and found out later that the most watch companys use movments from ETA that,and most watches have the same movment with different name and they charge them so high,well hell no.I dont think i am stealing i think they steal from me.You buy a replica with a Swiss 2836 and you pay 150 USD and you buy a Gen one with the same movment for some thousands of dollars,go figure then.

[NRG]

Who is stealing who; When i bought my gen Omegas and Tags and found out later that the most watch companys use movments from ETA that, and most watches have the same movment with different name and they charge them so high,well hell no.I dont think i am stealing i think they steal from me.You buy a replica with a Swiss 2836 and you pay 150 USD and you buy a Gen one with the same movment for some thousands of dollars,go figure then.

Except you don't! Go and track down the 'white lies' thread...your 'ETA' may not be what it seems.....

[1976]

Except you don't! Go and track down the 'white lies' thread...your 'ETA' may not be what it seems.....

Maybe but i love my reps and so enyone here,thats why we are so addicted.

[Raijor]

Way to avoid stumbling over your principles! Bravo!

/Tim

Mea culpa - Mea culpa - Mea maxima culpa

[baltic]

Replicas do dilute the brand exclusivity and cache of their genuine counterparts... But, at the same time, how many of you bought a genuine based on a replica of the same watch purchased? I bet there are a few of you that fall into that category. I am sure that there are also some that have gone from gens to reps as well (or buy both concurrently).

I for one bought a Gen Speedy Pro after having the rep. I loved the watch and wanted the 'real thing'. When I get a bit more spare cash, I'll probably get a second hand PAM. The reps got me into watches.

[dak244]

This is my thoughts on the matter (from another post over at RWI):

"I don't know about anyone else but replica watches has the SAME affect on me that downloading music did in the old days. I used to download new bands CD's just to listen to them and see if I liked them. Then, if I did, I would end up buying their new albums when they came out, going to their concerts, etc. Basically making them money.

Well... since I have joined the rep community I, like mayn others, have become quite fond of Panerai watches. I have since then considered, on multiple occasions, buying an authentic Panerai watch. I have yet to do it, but I know it will be only a matter of time before I own a gen. Basically, I would have NEVER heard of Panerai if it weren't for this forum, and I would have never owned one if it weren't for replica's.

So in conclusion, I think replicas can actually help the company as well. Many people on this board on Gen Pams that would have never even heard of them before reps...... I know that wasn't that clearly said, but you get my point..."

[Tim]

You have no idea how wrong you are in your above statements.

Xerox Parc sold Apple the GUI, for a start. They did very well out of the sale.

The Eiger was an OEM version of the SaeHan system. The Eiger Labs MPMan F10 was merely the first on the US market and it didn't really do too well. It was the Rio 300 that was the first successful MP3 player and neither the Rio nor the Eiger had what was the one killer feature that made the iPod the success it was today: The click-wheel interface. It was this interface that is patented up the wazoo by Apple that allowed MP3 players to become as ubiquitous as they are today. To call the iPod a copy of the Eiger is ... well, I can't think of a polite way to put it.

Uhhhuhuhuhuh. You're good Pug, very good! Had me referring to some history to make sure I had it right.

Then why is it that when Apple accused Microsoft of violating its copyright by appropriating the use of the "look and feel" of the Macintosh GUI, Xerox also sued Apple on the same grounds? The lawsuit was dismissed because Xerox had waited too long to file suit and the statute of limitations had expired, not because Apple had properly paid for and executed a licensing agreement. It is said, according to popular lore, that Apple gave some PARC engineers who visited Apple to look at their GUI some "gratuity" stock for their personal engineering assistance but not to compensate Xerox for it's intellectual property.

And you are sorta right about the Saehan. That was the name of the company that developed the MPMan and sold it in Asia. Eiger brought it to the US with the same name in a distribution deal. So I'll start calling it the Saehan MPMan when you start calling your Opal a Chevy.

As to how much an improvement the iPod wheel was over the original design, that is a subjective opinion. My opinion is that it is an improvment in the original concept but it is not the wheel that makes the concept work as a marketable product. Otherwise I'd have a touchy wheel on my car, my watch, my stove, etc.

/Tim

Edited March 13, 2007 by Tim

[Pix]

Other thoughts about rep watches (I promise, I don't want to be a troll)

Sure rep business is illegal. But not lethal. Counterfeit medicine is dangerous, as counterfeit car parts are dangerous. They actually harm both the enduser and the manufacturer (in this case they loose the sales for the gen parts). Also most of the time the enduser does not know what is buying.

No counterfeit watch has ever killed anyone (except the ones that waited a watch more than 3 weeks ! )

So from this point of view, as long as our hobby does not kill anyone and obviously does not make manufacturers go bankrupt, I do not feel guilty of anything, even if that whole activity is wrong from the legal point of view, I would qualify it of "not right" from the moral point of view, that's slightly different.

BTW, anyone here liked the leopard Rollie ?

[Pugwash]

It is said, according to popular lore, that Apple gave some PARC engineers who visited Apple to look at their GUI some "gratuity" stock for their personal engineering assistance but not to compensate Xerox for it's intellectual property.

The truth is that Xerox corporate in NY simply didn't see the value of the GUI and traded the rights to Apple to use anything they saw on a fact-finding mission. Xerox granted Apple engineers three days of access to the PARC facilities in return for selling them one million dollars in pre-IPO Apple stock, and the stock was valued at $18 000 000 when they went public, so what some people call stealing, Xerox call being paid $17 000 000.

And yes, Xerox didn't realise that they could sue Apple until Apple sued MS, and by then it was too late.

[Pugwash]

As to how much an improvement the iPod wheel was over the original design, that is a subjective opinion.

Seeing as it was the only difference between the iPod and its nearest competitor when the iPod was released, I'd say we know the outcome of that one.

[Tim]

Philips, Thomson, TDF, France Telecom and IRT... (its therefore a dutch-French-German technology, YEAH ! )

Dutch-French-German, hummmm first chocolate, then the world! Bell Labs is in there somewhere. But according to the U.S. Courts none of them did anything useful; and so it is because America says it's so!

[eddhead]

If I walk along with my Ralph Lauren Shirt with the big logo on the chest, I am promoting the brand.

When the shirt is fake I am still promoting it. I wasn't asked to, but that doesn't matter here.

well, if we are promoting the brands, we are doing so against the will of the manufacturers. Clearly, they see little value in our promotional marketing efforts.

Given that the brands themselves expend a lot of effort in curtailing these activities, it is hard to see how we are acting in their best interests... and if we are not acting in their best interests, it is hard to see position this in a postive light. While true, that a number of members became interested in gens by first purchasing rep products, it is quite clear where the luxury brands stand on this issue based on the pressure they exert on Governmental agencies, customs, and e-commerce enablers like paypal. To them this is counterfiet trade and it cuts right to the heart of their most important asset... their brand.

Brand protection is everything to these guys. Brand recognition and positioning is the what allows R*lex to charge in excess of $5K for a new sub and what keeps the vintage market hopping . They do not care about the extra couple of watches they might sell from people who become interested via the rep route. They are much more concerned with protecting exclusivity and luxury perception of the brand itself. Sorry but that is a fact.