Vintage Daytona

[dieselpower]

I have recently taken delivery of an EE Daytona. Few problems at first but have fitted a gen tropic 21 and a replacement bezel (thanks to a generous fellow member and Daytona fan who shall remain nameless). I love the watch and am now on the lookout for a Val 72 to see if it will fit in the case without any re-working. Does anybody know if a Val 72 fits in EE's cases?

Anyway here is a very amateur photo of my new baby. One thing I have noticed and am intending to improve on is the dial, I have not lookd through a loupe but the printing of the words under the 12 o'clock crown are a bit rough to the naked eye - through a loupe probably horrendous!

All hail the Daytona.

[freddy333]

dieselpower -- Nice watch. You are right about the dial font. Definitely a weak point. And I am not positive, but I think the subdials may be a bit small and off center as well. But I love the correctly placed asymmetrical pushers. That is what I am looking for (but with non-screw button pushers and non-Oyster case).

[freddy333]

Well, the EE simply has a taller caseback to accomodate the rotor. Otherwise, the dimensions are quite similar.

One thing about the DW mystery movement case- The rehaut is taller since the V23 and mm are a bit thinner in profile vs. the 7750 and V72. This must be a result of the 12 hour counter function not being present. So, ultimately, you want- 1) shallow rehaut 2) low profile case back 3) crown in-line with pushers 4) asymmetrically spaced pushers 5) 37mm diameter case (not counting the crown) 6) 19mm lugs.

The case that fills those requirements the closest is the DW V72 case kit (or the one from Dinh)...

Randy -- It sounds like the DW V72 is what I need. But I may have missed a point somewhere along the way in my earlier research about the mm movements in DWs. Are these movements bi-compax or tri-compax? I was under the impression (mistaken maybe) that the DWs with mystery movements looked and operated just like the gen pre-Zenith Daytonas. Did I get that wrong?

[ubiquitous]

Yeah... DW's with the MM are all bi-compax and the V23 is basically the V72 without the hour counter.. The 12 hour counter is a dummy sub dial. Which, for me is okay, as I never use the stopwatch in any of my Daytonas.

[dieselpower]

dieselpower -- Nice watch. You are right about the dial font. Definitely a weak point. And I am not positive, but I think the subdials may be a bit small and off center as well. But I love the correctly placed asymmetrical pushers. That is what I am looking for (but with non-screw button pushers and non-Oyster case).

Absolutely right about the sub-dials. They are basically too far apart and closer to the main munite index than on the gen but this is because the movement inside is the 7750. When I get a V72 I will have to buy a new dial. In a funny way this makes the EE even better because I wont mind spending money replacing the dial to fit the V72 movement and throwing that crap away. Kill two birds with one stone!

[eunomians]

It is true that those V72 cases are a pain in the butt. Each unit that I have fitted Valoux 72 movements into had its own quirks. Major quirks. In the end, it was a veritable headache. So much so that I don't wear mine because they remind me of all that $$$, time, stress and headaches they've caused. Ok, slight exaggeration, but you understand my point.

If you don't own a V72 powered watch and you are a serious collector like me (especially OEM watches), you should have at least one V72 watch in your collection. The Valjoux 72 is a robust & reliable movement - historically significant at that. Personally, I don't care too much for the 6263/5 watches, but I am a huge fan of V72. So if you're not so into these vintage Rolex chronos, get yourself an Heuer or Zodiac powered by a V72. I am sure that once u score a fine example, you will keep it forever. Forget about reps and appreciate greatness.

-Cheers

PS. Still lovely to look at though!

Edited March 28, 2007 by Eunomians

[freddy333]

Yeah... DW's with the MM are all bi-compax and the V23 is basically the V72 without the hour counter.. The 12 hour counter is a dummy sub dial. Which, for me is okay, as I never use the stopwatch in any of my Daytonas.

Did your DWs with MM come with the dummy 12 hour subdial or did you have to 'freeze' it yourself?

I am just thinking out loud here, but with the exception of their not having the asymmetrical pusher layout, the pre-Daytona chronos from Andrew and Joshua seem to be the correct case size (19mm lugs, etc) for the PN and 6263 style of Daytonas. Does that sound right to you? As a backup plan, in case the DW Paul Newman is no longer available with MM or equivalent movement, I wonder if these cases from Andrew or Joshua would fit the Venus/Lemania movement that I and others love so much? I know the pusher placement would still be incorrect (a serious flaw in my opinion), but with a good dial, I think if fitted with a Venus/Lemania movement it might be a good working alternative. These non-Oyster watch cases look like they have reasonably close (in appearance) crowns and pushers.

Do you have any experience with these watches and retrofitting them with Venus/Lemania movements?

[ubiquitous]

Well, the DW's come with the subdial hand completely frozen- Nothing to do there. In fact... The hand is slightly attached to the dial. Would have never known that until I took mine apart.

As for the ones from Andrew and Joshua... I thought those already came with the Venus installed?

[freddy333]

As for the ones from Andrew and Joshua... I thought those already came with the Venus installed?

I think they sell a mixture of both Venus and Asian 7750 based watches, but the ones I am talking about are the pre-Daytona models that come with the Asian 7750 movement like this: http://www.ttwristwatch.com/index.php?main...c98e59d264cf070

The case is 37mm with 19mm lugs. If you view the watch from the crown & pushers side, you will see that the case (excepting that it lacks the asymmetrical pusher layout and comes with the wrong bezel for the PN) looks correct for PNs and similar early Daytona. I am basing this on the photos in the new Italian Daytona book. Unfortunately, Andrew's watch does not have the asymmetrical pushers, which is why I was thinking of it as the next best option (if the same DW model cannot be sourced and the correct black plastic-coated PN Daytona bezel can be swapped from another rep watch). It is a nice watch as it is (it comes with the Asian 7750), but I really prefer the manual Venus movement, which feels and sounds much nicer. The question I am asking is whether, assuming a similar DW cannot be found, you think the Venus would fit into this case? [EDIT -- If it helps, my venus is currently installed in a 39mm case with 20mm lugs and it has one of those plastic spacer rings around it.]

It just occured to me that another option would be to remove the rotor on the Asian 7750 movement this watch comes with (to disable the auto-wind feature and make it function more similar to the gen manual-wind PN Daytona), swap the dial & bezel for the correct PN Daytona parts -- either gen or good quality rep-- and (with the exception of the non-asymmetrical pushers) you have a very accurate PN Daytona with fully working chrono in a proper sized case.

OR -- With all the drilling and filing going on here, I wonder if we could take one of the datejust cases that are the same size as these pre-Daytona cases and drill our own asymmetrical pusher holes. Ofrei sells very similar pushers for just a few dollars (I have used Ofrei's pushers to replace the original pushers that came in my existing PN Daytona case). I do not know what you and others have been paying for the DW cases, but if this could be done, it might be a nice (and cheaper) alternative?

[Physher007]

Spacing of my 7750 is not quite right,,but I love it

I think this is the "Passed out on the floor of the casino" shot. Beautiful watch, I am not sure I have seen that dial before.

I will most definitely be buying one of these buggers in the near future. My first chrono perhaps?!

Btw: Would anyone mind explaining the frozen sub dial? Good thing?

[freddy333]

Btw: Would anyone mind explaining the frozen sub dial? Good thing?

The lower subdial on the genuine tri-compax (a movement with 3 working subdials) Daytona of that vintage was a 12 hour counter (the hand counts each passing hour while the chronograph (stopwatch) is running). Some of the better movements used in the rep versions of this watch are bi-compax types (they only have two working subdials -- one at 3 and the other at 9), the lower subdial (at 6) is either non-existent or works as a second hour hand so that it and the main hour hand always point to the same thing whether the chrono is in use or not. Since, when the chrono is in the OFF position, the lower subdial on the genuine Daytona always points to the 12, having the subdial hand (on some of these reps) pointing at something else is a clear indicator of a rep or fake. Although you cannot make a bi-compax chrono movement work like a tri-compax movement, there are various methods to 'freeze' the lower subdial hand so it at least looks like the gen in the OFF position (pointing to the twelve).

If you look at some genuine vintage Daytonas, you will see that the large 'second hand' on the main dial and the subdials at 3 & 6 always point to the 12 when the chrono function is not in use (this is the OFF position for the chronograph). The idea is to make the rep watch with the bi-compax chrono movement look the same.

[eunomians]

I'd be careful of the asia 7750 movement due to reliablility issues. Seagull (Lemania) is the way to go as far as reliability. But... It is a different size than 7750.

[eunomians]

I forgot to add that 7750 is also a different size than V23. Which in turn is thinner than V72.

Essentially, all of these movements are different (V23 & V72 being identical aside from thickness).

[freddy333]

I forgot to add that 7750 is also a different size than V23. Which in turn is thinner than V72.

Essentially, all of these movements are different (V23 & V72 being identical aside from thickness).

Is the added thickness of the 7750 due to the addition of the self-winding rotor? If so, it is easy to remove and since the gen watch was manual anyway, that would be a good mod.

I think most of the problems reported with the 7750 relate to the modified version, the one that has several additional gears tacked on to it to replicate the seconds at 6 function of the current Daytonas. The unmodified seconds at 9 movements (I have two watches with these movements) seem to be fairly reliable, at least in the time they have been available.

But there is no question that the Venus/Lemania movement is made better. The trouble is that the 7750 is a tri-compax and the Venus/Lemania is bi-compax. So if you are limited to these two, you have to choose between a more accurate manual-wind movement that has better feel and a longer lifespan but also has a non-functional lower subdial, or an auto-wind movement of lower quality that has a questionable lifespan but offers a fully functional chronograph.

Since most people rarely use the chronograph (and those that do probably will not keep it running long enough to engage the hour counter), I think it makes more sense to choose the better quality movement that is manual and has a lower profile like the gen movement.

[eunomians]

I like the Seagull for reliablility first.

Then the 7750.

The V23/V72 are vastly superior to both of these and really should be in a different category all together.

You could easily remove the auto rotor on the 7750. I am not sure if the 7750 would fit with a Seagull or V23/V72 caseback though. It might.

Remember that you will need to get an OEM crown tube and crown because daily winding will grind the hell out of your screwdown replica tube/crown.

Also remember that pusher placement can also be an issue - as well as stem height respective to the stem opening on the case.

I think that the cheapest & most reliable way to go is 'manual' like you said (via Seagull/Lemania).

[jeff g]

As much as I would have loved to have been able to get a DW case in the 6263/5 that I recently purchased, for me DW never answered any of my emails, or acknowledged my interest in dealing with him. I found that unless you know him from past transactions, dealing with him as a new guy is basically impossible.

I ended up dealing with Ms. King because she was the only dealer that I was able to source the silver dial and SS bezel, as well as the Seagull movement. I would not have wanted this model in a 7750 movement, for the main reason that I wanted the thinner case size in this model at 10 mm thick, rather than the 12 to 14mm that most of the 7750's are spec'd at.

Some of our more well known members here that are 'Daytona' experts look at the watch I showed in my original post here, would say that the model I am showing is totally inaccurate in comparison to the DW or EE cases, and dails/pushers etc. For me however, I was more concerned with the overall appearance of the watch and the thickness of the case, not whether or not it was completely accurate in comparison to the gen.

In my photo I was conscious of the non frozen sub dial at 6:00 issue, and so I took my photo with the time close to the 12:00 hour to show the 6:00 dial in a 'frozen' posisition.

For all the inaccurasies of the watch I purchased, I still think that it is one of the most beautiful reps that I own. I literally looked for months to find this particular model. IMHO the watch that I showed here was worth the effort regardless of how historically accurate or inaccurate it may be.

[dieselpower]

Hey Freddy,

Check this out - how's your Japanese?

http://shopping.e-conveni.net/item_info.ht...id=1024735&

[HighDef]

Hey Freddy,

Check this out - how's your Japanese?

http://shopping.e-conveni.net/item_info.ht...id=1024735&

Does those pushers look asymetric??? Maybe just the position of the pic. This almost $300 plus shipping.

[freddy333]

Hey Freddy,

Check this out - how's your Japanese?

Diesel -- My Japanese? I have enough trouble with English (my native tongue).

I assume you are concerned with the PNs (as am I). I do not see anything special there that is not available from dealers here (and for fewer yen). Since I do not read Japanese and the site does not have an obvious English page, it is hard to tell what type of movement those PNs have. But they look like they are from the same factory that Joshua gets his RLDV10001 (Venus/Lemania manual bi-compax movement PN watches from) from. These (and Joshua's) PN's are very good except for that slightly oblonged lower subdial that 'bleeds' into the dial surround (I wish I could figure out how to paint that spot without smudging the paint and killing the dial -- it is such a TINY spot, but it makes an otherwise excellent dial fairly easy to spot as a fake (if you know anything about the gen PNs). And of course these (and Joshua's) manual PN's do not have the asymmetrical pusher arrangement of the DWs and gens.

[freddy333]

HighDef -- Now that looks more like it.

When I posted my previous response to Diesel I did not realize there was more than one version of the same watch on that page.

The second version:

has a different (and VERY accurate) dial and it does look like it could have asymmetrical pushers. But it could also be the angle of the photo. If they are asymmetric, in fact, even if they are not, it might be a good buy just for the dial and case. But I would rather get a page translation before plunking down any money. I tried running the page through google's beta Japanese to English translation, but it did not work.

EDIT -- Difficult to tell from the photos, but that watch may even have the proper sized lug holes! So now I am very curious to find out details on these. This is not quite the PN I was looking for (I want the non-Oyster with black face/white subdials and non-screw button pushers), but if these do have asymmetric pushers and working chronos, then for $300 and that much accuracy, my check is virtually in the mail.

[freddy333]

Here is another one and it also looks like it has asymmetrical pushers and no other blaring mistakes.

Damn if these do not look like DWs

But $300???????

HighDef -- How did you figure that price and can you translate the rest of the page?

[freddy333]

And look at the depth of the subdials and serifs on the '3' on this thing

I have never seen this level of accuracy on any other non-put-it-together-yourself PN rep!

And all for $300???!!!

This could be the old bait-and-switch rep scam of using gen photos to sell rubbish. But I do not know.

I would love to know what Ubi, the undisputed Daytona mod king, thinks about these.

EDIT -- After more careful study of a few more of the PN's on the page, I have concluded the following --

1. The movements may be bi-compax since in all of the photos (several) the hour subdial is always 'fixed' at 12. Now this could be because the chrono was just started (or has not yet run long enough to engage the chrono's hour clock) or it could be because the movement does not have a functional third subdial.

Around the middle of the main index page, there is a red & black PN. About half way down the page for that model, there is a photo of the movement. I am viewing this on a laptop, so it is hard to see the details and I cannot tell which chrono movement this is (I do not see any text or branding but the movement does appear to have a small bit of decoration on the balance [censored] and an adjacent bridge, so I do not think it is a cheap Asian clone)

I tried to PM Ziggy, but he apparently has his messages disabled. But, Rob, if you happen to read this, please have a look and let us know your opinion.

2. The cases appear to be the same (thicker) case like the one used for Joshua's manual PN's.

Still not sure about the pusher positions. All of the watches on that site that have the correct dial, appear (in the photos) to have asymmetrical pushers. But there are also a bunch of watches on the main page that look like cheap junk. So it is hard to tell.

[HighDef]

And look at the depth of the subdials and serifs on the '3' on this thing

I have never seen this level of accuracy on any other non-put-it-together-yourself PN rep!

And all for $300???!!!

This could be the old bait-and-switch rep scam of using gen photos to sell rubbish. But I do not know.

I would love to know what Ubi, the undisputed Daytona mod king, thinks about these.

EDIT -- After more careful study of a few more of the PN's on the page, I have concluded the following --

1. The movements may be bi-compax since in all of the photos (several) the hour subdial is always 'fixed' at 12. Now this could be because the chrono was just started (or has not yet run long enough to engage the chrono's hour clock) or it could be because the movement does not have a functional third subdial.

Around the middle of the main index page, there is a red & black PN. About half way down the page for that model, there is a photo of the movement. I am viewing this on a laptop, so it is hard to see the details and I cannot tell which chrono movement this is (I do not see any text or branding but the movement does appear to have a small bit of decoration, so I do not think it is a cheap Asian clone)

I tried to PM The Zigmeister, but he apparently has his messages disabled. But, Rob, if you happen to read this, please have a look and let us know your opinion.

2. The cases appear to be the same (thicker) case like the one used for Joshua's manual PN's.

Still not sure about the pusher positions. All of the watches on that site that have the correct dial, appear (in the photos) to have asymmetrical pushers. But there are also a bunch of watches on the main page that look like cheap junk. So it is hard to tell.

Sorry Fred, I do not speak the language either. That movement is the Seagull ST19 manual wind. I use the currency converter to now the dollar ammount. I wish Ubi and Euno can share thier toughts about this watch. I wish they post more than just one pic. I like the looks of this and the price. I think Ubi or Euno know how to speak Nippongo.

[HighDef]

Here is another one and it also looks like it has asymmetrical pushers and no other blaring mistakes.

Damn if these do not look like DWs

But $300???????

HighDef -- How did you figure that price and can you translate the rest of the page?

The thickness of the case and the sub dial position from the pic on that site tells me that it has the 7750. I could be wrong.

[freddy333]

You could be right, but a knowledgeable inspection of the movement photo would help.