Fighting words

[eddhead]

@All.......I'm going to change my POV on the 2nd Amendment.......the Right to Bear Arms.......having re-read it.........I tend to agree with the proposition that all Americans do have the right to bear arms....( and no....I don't mean 'bare' arms...)......I mean the right to a well formed militia.....!

my point exactly... ummm i think... i.e. the amendment was created to facilate national and state defense, and in and of itself does not confer rights for weapons possession for personal use.

[Guest TTK]

A much tougher nut to crack! So now the questions are how do you recognize the 'one' that would be enabled with a hand gun to commit murder (mass or otherwise)?

I don't need to recognise the 'one'.....that's asking me to be clairvoyant.......however if I see the big 9mm in his hand....then I'm fairly sure I know his intentions....!

[eddhead]

I am not so quick to throw Iran in the toilet over this. Yes, they probably are working on a nuclear bomb. They feel they have just cause to provide for their own defense and nukes are the only thing that seems to command the US's respect. I bet if the US agreed to sign an internationally recognized nonaggression treaty with Iran that the Iranians would be happy to drop the plans for nuclear power. I think Iran has even said this publically.

We backed Iraq in the Iran-Iraq War. We along with many other western countries supplied Iraq with the weapons needed and, when Saddam started loosing the war, the US provided Saddam with WMD and winked when he started to use the WMD against Iran. Kuwait lent him all the money for the war and in the process both Iran and Iraq managed to destroy all their oil production facilities. We sailed our aircraft carriers into the Gulf and actively secured the waterways and coastlines for Iraq getting into a number of clashes with Iran. Remember all that?

Generally accepted numbers show Iran alone lost ONE MILLION people to this war and Iraq 500,000. But some estimates go as high as 2 million total losses. It is hard to determine because the war lasted just short of eight years resulting in catastrophic destruction in both countries. Additionally both Iran and Iraq used irregular military units and freely attacked civilian populations.

Just slightly before that was the Iranian hostage crisis where the Iranians overthrew a brutal despot that the British, with American blessings, had previously installed as the leader of Iran after his father Reza Shah, wanting to maintain Iran's declared neutrality during WWII, refused to allow the Allies to re-supply Russia over Iranian territory.

And the Iran-Iraq War precipitated Gulf War I when the Kuwaitis would not forgive the loans made to Iraq even though there were made because Kuwait feared invasion by Iran. Kuwait would not forgive the debt, but they were also causing a glut in world oil supplies depressing the prices. So Iraq could not amass the funds to repay the loans. Then on top of all that the Kuwaitis were cross drilling under their border with Iraq into Iraqi oil fields.

And here we come in the Gulf War II bumbling into two of Iran's immediate neighbors, Iraq and Afghanistan. What the [censored] would you be doing at this point?????? Haven't we shown by our actions how hostile we are towards these people?

-T

I am not justifying current US unilatarlist foreign policies and will be the first one to step up and say US geopolictical polices under the Bush administration have been an abject disaster. Trust me, I am not a fan of our president and never have been.

I will also tell you that the policies enacted first by Reagan (supporting what later turned out to be the taliban, and arming Iraq) and later by Bush I were at best, short sighted. I am familar with them and take your point.

And I agree that it may be true that the Iranians are justfied in feeling threatened by the US, and shame on us for that... but the fact remains the country is unstable politcally, and a nuclear armed Iran would present a huge threat to the western world. Ahmadinejad is a sociopath... anybody who could deny the existance of the holocost is capable of anything.. I think he even scares the some of the mullahs in his own country. And rightfully so.

Moreover, he is sympethic to terroist organizations who are not friendly to the US in particular and the western world generally. Wheather their fears of a US attack are justified or not, given that they sponser terrorist organizations we cannot risk them having access to nukes... there is too great a chance they will use them, not properly secure them, or turn them over to other terrorist organizations.

[ryyannon]

In the meantime....:

A Culture of Passivity

"Protecting" our "children" at Virginia Tech.

By Mark Steyn

I haven

[FxrAndy]

@All.......I'm going to change my POV on the 2nd Amendment.......the Right to Bear Arms.......having re-read it.........I tend to agree with the proposition that all Americans do have the right to bear arms....( and no....I don't mean 'bare' arms...)......I mean the right to a well formed militia.....!

Only one condition.........is that they are all armed with the weapon of choice of the Founding Fathers........the Ferguson muzzle loader.......with no less than a 5 ft barrel.........evrybody then has the right to be armed......as envisioned by the Fathers........no contest...no foul.....no Glocks allowed...!

They need pistols as well, Like this one, 1899 Remington rider deringer (rep but functional), 4.3mm ball, range about 5 foot and powerful enough to hurt you, (a bit)

And Well said Mark Steyn.

[eddhead]

In the meantime....:

interesting and thought provoking.. I am not sure I know how I feel about this. I get the point, but I would suggest that there is a big difference in terms of what you can expect your life can be like from living on a collage campus vs. being stationed in bagdhad. Because we do not live in a militristic sparta like society I do not know if it is reasonable to expect our 17 year olds to be equipped to deal with these type of incidious acts. Honestly, were any of us really that grown up at 17, 18, etc..

I was actually quite impressed with the poise and intelligence evidenced by the students who were interviewed on the news channels reporting the event as well as the speeches delivered at the rallies. They really moved me. Remember these students were not selected on the basis of their competancy but rather on the basis of their close relationships with the deceased. They showed themselves to be articulate, reponsbile high-spiried and very bright.. and illustrated anything but the passive attributes described in the column you posted.

[Tim]

I am not justifying US unilatarlist foreign policies and will be the first one to step up and say US geopolictical polices under the Bush administration have been an abject disaster. Trust me, I am not a fan of our president and never have been.

It may be true that the Iranians are justfied in feeling threatened by the US, and shame on us for that... but the fact remains the country is unstable politcally, and a nuclear armed Iran would present a huge threat to the western world. Ahmadinejad is a sociopath... anybody who could deny the existance of the holocost is capable of anything.. I think he even scares the some of the mullahs in his own country. And rightfully so.

Moreover, he is sympethic to terroist organizations who are not friendly to the US in particular and the western world generally. Wheather their fears of a US attack are justified or not, given that they sponser terrorist organizations we cannot risk them having access to nukes... there is too great a chance they will use them, not properly secure them, or turn them over to other terrorist organizations.

Iran having a nuclear weapon is a threat to the world but Pakistan is A-OK? Sponsoring terriorism is entirely predictable--in asymetrical warfare.

-T

[eddhead]

Iran having a nuclear weapon is a threat to the world but Pakistan is A-OK? Sponsoring terriorism is entirely predictable--in asymetrical warfare.

-T

No it is not OK. We blew it on this one too. But that does not make me any less concerned about Iran.

[FxrAndy]

I do not know if it is reasonable to expect our 17 year olds to be equipped to deal with these type of incidious acts. Honestly, were any of us really that grown up at 17, 18, etc..

Yes i was, i started my service at 16 and just after my 18th i was on active duty. Just as many of your countrymen are on active duty now and are only 18, they saw that as a way of paying or an education or just a way of getting a good job, or may be even a sense of duty to serve their country. If they can be grown up enough then so can the rest, people will only grow up when treated like a grown up, and only be responsible when given responsibility.

[archibald]

This is statistics and can be interpreted any way you want, but I dont think US citicens like to murder more, than people in Australia for example.

So what is the diffrence social ? access to guns ... ? lack of education ? you tell me.

I don't know...but when it comes to charts, we Americans will take a back seat to noone.

Here's a chart I ran accross that shows what single issue voting gets you. The Republicans like to brag that, based on turnout polling, the support of gun owners and anti-abortion voters made all the difference in key states in 2000 and 2004. I don't know what NRA and NRTL members' average income is, but while many of them donate and vote for candidates largely on their position their favorite issues, I always wonder if they consider the actual dollars and cents cost of that support. The yellowish vertical line represents the changes in tax policy put into place in 2001.

[eddhead]

Yes i was, i started my service at 16 and just after my 18th i was on active duty. Just as many of your countrymen are on active duty now and are only 18, they saw that as a way of paying or an education or just a way of getting a good job, or may be even a sense of duty to serve their country. If they can be grown up enough then so can the rest, people will only grow up when treated like a grown up, and only be responsible when given responsibility.

With all due respect (and I hold all armed service veterns in the highest regard) I do not agree. As I said, I think there is a big difference in what you can expect your life to be like when you are living on a college campus vs. what you can expect when serving on active duty. This will always be the case for me, unless our society transfoms itself into something more similar to what we see today in Israel or to a more extreme degree what ancient Sparta must have been like. Culturally, however, this is not consistent with our national identity however.

Nevertheless, as I previously stated, the article is quite thought provoking, and something i need to digest.

p.s. you guys are wearing me out..

[FxrAndy]

You asked if any of us were really that grown up not should campus students be expected to deal with it. A question has any thing like this ever happened in a military school, i know the film Tapps but that was just a film. (not a leading question either just a question.

[HauteHippie]

They need pistols as well, Like this one, 1899 Remington rider deringer (rep but functional), 4.3mm ball, range about 5 foot and powerful enough to hurt you, (a bit)

Nice rep!!

[maxmilian]

Yes. The USA has far too many violent assholes. Some of it is cultural. Much of it is because of our diversity. What works in terms of laws and policies for smaller, homogenous populations might not be the best choice for a large, diverse population.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...19/uviolent.xml

That's not somwhere I'd want to live. Lots of muggings and home invasions. Criminals act with impunity since the unarmed populace can not fight back. While violent crime is low, theivery is rampant.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=21902

There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly. Who would force their elderly parents or grandparents to engage in hand to hand combat with a young aggressor who probably lifted weights in prison, all day, every day, for the past few years?

You cant be serious ?

You truly must understand how that data is collected? and by whom ?

Like to me in Sweden for example everything is filed under crimes like bicycle theft jail walking riding a bike without a light etc.

Do you really think that sweden will have a figure like 25% otherwise, come on ?

I normally dont loose my temper, and I was not making a Europe vs USA in my fist post I was stating facts and asked questions.

But this type of ignorence really pisses me off !!

[omega1]

With all due respect (and I hold all armed service veterns in the highest regard) I do not agree. As I said, I think there is a big difference in what you can expect your life to be like when you are living on a college campus vs. what you can expect when serving on active duty. This will always be the case for me, unless our society transfoms itself into something more similar to what we see today in Israel or to a more extreme degree what ancient Sparta must have been like. Culturally, however, this is not consistent with our national identity however.

Nevertheless, as I previously stated, the article is quite thought provoking, and something i need to digest.

p.s. you guys are wearing me out..

I agree with you on that one eddhead. I served in the US Marines and saw combat 2 times. It was an absolute nerve racking experience, even with the combat training that I had been given.

A 9mm gunshot is LOUD. Put that ear piercing sound in an enclosed environment like a classroom and the results are utterly disorientating for anyone not wearing hearing protection. The shot will cause the inner ear to swell, affecting the equilibrium. I don

[Blindman]

@Blindman.....I don't advocate a complete ban...there are always exceptions to every rule of law.......abbatoirs......populace in sparse areas.....park wardens......ad infinitum......the situation should be examined in every instance.....if deemed it is necessary then steps to ownership should begin.....with full accountability...and a weapon that is suited for the purpose....handguns are little use against a grizzly bear......shotguns for pest control.!

@TTK Well you did ask when does a person need to own a gun.

Some hunters do hunt grizzly with pistol, makes you laugh when the bear wins. Now on the discover channel they have a guy who's gonna teach wolves to be wild - there's a darwin award in the making.

There is some sense being spoken on gun control issues. I am pro gun but lets use some reason.

1). There is no real need for assault rifles unless you are in the military. They use too much ammunition, and there are just as accurate if not more accurate bolt-action rifles. If you need that many bullets to hit the target, trade the assault rifle in for some shooting lessons. Economically you'll even save money to buy more watches, bullets aren't cheap.

2.) Armor piercing or exploding bullets - Living in the woods I haven't seen any game wearing bullet proof vests or driving armored vehicles. Don't really need them to pierce paper targets they only have one purpose- they need to be banned. People selling them need to be treated the same as drug peddlers - toss the key.

3.) Handguns - Ahhh! the controversy. It would be impossible to license every handgun but to license every owner. Expecting responsible ownership is not an infringement of any rights. A class, a test, and a renewal process. No questions as to how many you own, but if you own, are you educated in the safety and responsibility of ownership? Oh! Want to buy a handgun? Do you have a license? No license - No Sale

4.) 2 Week hold on purchase. The only legit reason for owning a gun is hunting or sport shooting. Plan your purchase two weeks before season opens or the sporting event. This law protects us all from the hotheads and the mentally imbalanced. As a gun owner this doesn't bother me, in fact it should be a federal regulation.

NOW ON MY SOAPBOX

5.) I applaud my state for requiring hunter certification prior to issuing a hunting license. The amount of morons it has kept out of the woods is dramatic. Hunting related accidents reduced by 72%. Years ago my wife's grandfather

[Richard Tracy]

I'm an American, Ex-Military, however have the sense to look to older or more progressive societies

for examples of what is reality in human nature, and in life.

Most Americans don't realize how young our society is...and how far we have to go to gaining

a worldly outlook...

We are great, creative, individualistic people,... Yes,..but many of us are like the Ancients who thought

their cities were the center of the universe... when during those same moments, there existed other societies

in the world, that had answers to problems that would have saved millions of lifes, if only minds were

opened and pride based upon relation to pigmentation, or culture, was viewed as solid & stable as gaining height

by stepping upon a block of ice.

Look....

Walking barefoot is easier, the less broken glass you have around you.

No different than the common sense goals to keeping Nuclear arms down to a minimum on earth..

is the reasoning behind the fact that the more guns you have on the streets, the more bullets that

go whizzing by....

[Pugwash]

What is that I see swirling the drain? Looks like your credibility.....

UK = 92.1% white, 2% black

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html

You assume that 'white' is a culture and that 'black' is the only alternative? Europe has a number of mostly white countries, each having their own language and culture. The UK has a large amount of non-black immigrants from Europe and Asia that have all brought their cultures with them.

[eddhead]

One needs to look no further than America's ghettos to see the end result of liberal social engineering.

• Accountability: Gone.
  
• Incentives to work: Gone.
  
• Families: Gone.
  

This is the welfare state at work.

Do you think it is really that much beter BEFORE 'liberal social engineerint'? I am not sure how old you are, but I am old enough to remember the civil rights protests and marches in the 60's. They presented a picture of America that was horrifying. And I do think that we are beginning to see the fruits of some of the equal rights initiatives (if not the social welfare ones). US Society as a whole is much more tolerant on diversity issues, especially racial ones, than it ever was largely as a result of the mindset that created the social welfare state you so decry. You see it everywhere.. more interracial dating, greater diversity at senior corporate levels, etc.. the assimilation of people of color into the middle and upper-middle classes...

I do get your point that in some cases it created the paradymn you described, but it was not ALL bad.

[eddhead]

You assume that 'white' is a culture and that 'black' is the only alternative? Europe has a number of mostly white countries, each having their own language and culture. The UK has a large amount of non-black immigrants from Europe and Asia that have all brought their cultures with them.

Granted. But I for one strongly believe that the US far and away more multi-cultural than most european countries largely as a result of decades of liberal immagration policies and traditions. NYC alone is represented by literally dozens if not hundreds of first generation ethnicities.. restuarants, shops, etc... the chinese food in china town is comparable in authenticity to Hong Kond and Taiwan. I am not sure make that statement any where else,.. at least in my experience... there is nothing comparable in any european country i have visited.

[HauteHippie]

You assume that 'white' is a culture and that 'black' is the only alternative? Europe has a number of mostly white countries, each having their own language and culture. The UK has a large amount of non-black immigrants from Europe and Asia that have all brought their cultures with them.

Diversity alone doesn't necessarily lead to violence. But certain blends can and historically do, both here in the USA and elsewhere in the world.

[HauteHippie]

I do get your point that in some cases it created the paradymn you described, but it was not ALL bad.

Not ALL bad, but the bad outweighs the good, 100:1. Racial issues have gone in the wrong direction. Reverse discrimination is bad. I don't see "diversity" itself as a worthy goal. A lot of people hired to fill racial quotas are downright unqualified and incompetent, in my experience. And what message does that send to youths of any color?

[Tim]

I agree with you on that one eddhead. I served in the US Marines and saw combat 2 times. It was an absolute nerve racking experience, even with the combat training that I had been given.

Pshaw! I was in the Air Force and I saw you guys down there. Bunch of wussies!

-T

[robc_uk]

In certain cases, yes.

Oh, like those sneaky ones in Iraq??

Seriously, don't you see how hypocritical your viewpoint is?

To the rest of us it seems that the US wants to control everyone elses Nuclear Devices .

Can you tell us why ? (in less than 1000 words, remembering it was called Mutually Assured Destruction for a reason :-) )

We've had our Empire and let it all go, we don't have the need to indulge in 'Gunboat' politics anymore.

If those sailors recently held by Iran had been US Citizens can you imagine what would have happened, it would have been Stephen Coonts on steroids! But would Georgie boy have had to eat humble pie like Carter in 1980? Most likely, after all these big boys toys don't seem to work as well in the real world!

Lets end it here, this is going nowhere

Rob

Edited April 19, 2007 by rcherryuk

[Tim]

Not ALL bad, but the bad outweighs the good, 100:1. Racial issues have gone in the wrong direction. Reverse discrimination is bad. I don't see "diversity" itself as a worthy goal. A lot of people hired to fill racial quotas are downright unqualified and incompetent, in my experience. And what message does that send to youths of any color?

You. Diversity training. NOW!

Diversity is a wonderful thing. The only outcome is people learning how to get along with each other. Reverse discrimination and racial quotas, please where do you live that these are problems?

-T