DSN PAM 112 / Replacement DSN Fiddy

[Victoria]

Guys, maybe I'm just not meant for rep watch buying. Please help me to think clearly because I am bowed over in sadness right now, RWG Paneristi.

My DSN Fiddy and PAM 112 arrived earlier Saturday, and I was chatting to the chaps in the Shoutbox of how happy I was, dancing around my comp room like a fool. Everything seemed solved, sealed, delivered by the amazing craftsman that is Davidsen.

Because I had already the DSN Fiddy, I will admit to you that I had all of Saturday concentrated on the PAM 112. The lume is fantastic, glowing like the dickens. Aesthetically, I thought it was beautiful, and VERY close to the gen.

So I shot off an email to DSN thanking him PROFUSELY and with genuine gratefulness...and it turns out, prematurely. BIG MISTAKE.

The DSN REPLACEMENT Fiddy has:

- A completely loose Crown Guard lever, which is a breath away from opening loose every time I move it.

- Worse, a Crown which doesn't come out all the way, and therefore, the time cannot be set.

I could EVEN tolerate the crown guard lever (yes, I've tired screwing it tighter, GENTLY. Remember, I had this problem with Paul's horrific Mini-Fiddy, so I know what I should do).

But how can I tolerate a crown which cannot be pulled out enough to allow time-setting??

Lord, Jesus, give me strength! ON A REPLACEMENT FIDDY YET! ...anyway, pics.

Fiddy, PAM 112 Package Arrival:

Fiddy Arrival (Note the time):

Back of Movement:

Photo taken 15 minutes ago (Note the time -- I can't set it):

I'm awaiting an email reply from Davidsen, hopefully, somehow giving me hope he'll put things right.

Also, in the meantime, I've noticed that the CG "dimple" on the PAM 112 is less than flush as in the original, and the printing of "Luminor...Panerai" is not so good.

Mine:

Normally, I'd be content just that I got a nice PAM 112, because it's beautiful.

But if it turns out that I need to send back my TWO FIDDIES, do you counsel me to send back the PAM 112 for such a detail? By the way, certain things I requested (like specific straps, and some other things), were not sent either. He didn't reply to that earlier at all, merely saying "Enjoy your watches". Sigh.

Really, guys, I'm sorry to trouble you, but I need your support, and your clear thoughts, because I have none at the moment.

Apart from all of this, I'm out $$$, and still don't have a single good DSN watch to my name...

[FxrAndy]

Vic, the 112 looks great remember these are reps! Now the CG on the fiddy is an easy fix to get it tighter, remove it and gently file down the feet so that it sits closer and then holds firmer, i have done 3 this way, you could even do it with a diamond nail file watching tv just keep the feet at the same angle and take the same amount off both sides, Now the crown, is it the case that it touches the inside of the CG when it is pulled and the CG is stopping it getting to the hand set position? as that is a different matter? and would require the stem to be shortend.

[fitmic]

WTF?!?!

Davidsen was known for his quality products.

Are those days over???

[Victoria]

Vic, the 112 looks great remember these are reps!

First, FxrAndy. Thanks. Means a lot you took the trouble to answer this succinctly, and with a clear eye.

Yes, I have no probs with the PAM 112, but I just said that if I had to send two Fiddies back, should I ask DSN to do something about the PAM 112 too? Not that I would send this back BECAUSE of this dimple problem, only.

Now the CG on the fiddy is an easy fix to get it tighter, remove it and gently file down the feet so that it sits closer and then holds firmer, i have done 3 this way, you could even do it with a diamond nail file watching tv just keep the feet at the same angle and take the same amount off both sides,

Thanks for the tip.

However, this is beyond my powers as a newbie. Me, file? No, I'd do something wrong and ruin it worse. Send it to a watchsmith? Sure, I thought of that.

But part of me says I shouldn't have to do this ON A REPLACEMENT whose QC should've been absolute...

Now the crown, is it the case that it touches the inside of the CG when it is pulled and the CG is stopping it getting to the hand set position? as that is a different matter? and would require the stem to be shortend.

Two issues. The floppy lever which is very "close" to the crown in the closed position (and frankly, even the open one).

And the crown feels loose to the touch, where it is IMPOSSIBLE to pull it out entirely to hear the "click" to set the time. When you pull it out as far as it goes, it just winds the watch, not sets the time.

[Victoria]

WTF?!?!

Davidsen was known for his quality products.

Are those days over???

Maybe.

Maybe he can't keep up with orders anymore.

Maybe he has made a lot of money, and is starting to slack.

Maybe a lot of new clients are not his concern anymore, but just maintaining the older, less demanding (?) ones.

Or maybe he just doesn't care about me. This last bit just forget before you even finish reading it. It's just my sadness talking, Fitmic.

Thanks for the reply, though.

[FxrAndy]

Half of me says send it back the other half says send it to ziggy, cutt your losses have him service it sort the crown problem and you will have a perfect fiddy and i think right now i would go with the latter, Send the 112 to me though, lol that dimple would not bother me at all!

[Victoria]

Half of me says send it back the other half says send it to The Zigmeister, cutt your losses have him service it sort the crown problem and you will have a perfect fiddy and i think right now i would go with the latter, Send the 112 to me though, lol that dimple would not bother me at all!

I know, I know. I definitely deserved that. The girl who wants just everything right...only this time, I think I have a LITTLE more cause for complaint.

I'm not going to send it to The Zigmeister. I'm scared of modders at the moment. I'll try to sort things out with DSN first, and if no joy there, give it and more of my money to a watchsmith...

[t]

DSN is a good guy and a good dealer... his items are very nice and superb quality... BUT he should control all his items before ship them out... to many flaws

but DSN is a man of his word... he will get you a FULL REFUND or a replacement. But a quality control should be better... so no circumstances for him and his customers...

i sell swiss watches since many years... and NEVER ship any watch out before check it 100% (it takes some time but it is natural for a good dealer)... and had NEVER any refund on a watch. And if i say a check up... i mean a FULL CHECK UP... i control also the smalles screws

[Victoria]

DSN is a good guy and a good dealer... his items are very nice and superb quality... BUT he should control all his items before ship them out... to many flaws

DSN did turn out to be a good guy. He's not terribly polished, like Andrew and Joshua (OH NO! DUCK, THE CARTEL!) but he tries, bless him.

but DSN is a man of his word... he will get you a FULL REFUND or a replacement.

A second replacement, third watch? Like that member who posted in the Trade Review saying he sent his back 3 times before it was right? This I expect from Paul. Heck, I'm jubilant if I even GET a watch from, Paul.

BUT DAVIDSEN? Yeesh.

But a quality control should be better... so no circumstances for him and his customers...

I just don't get it. Even my genuinely revered Andrew messed up an order that was SO easy to spot before putting it in the box to send out (and yes, he promised me that he would, since it was for my dad).

EDIT: Don't mention the d-word! I know.

I told him, I know you will take care of me if anything goes wrong, but just please please check it before sending it out to me. He said yes, and whammo. Great guy, he sent a replacement LIKE THAT, but these things are almost too easy to spot before sending them out.

Guys, with this lack of quality control in this and other items, China will NEVER catch up to the West. It's like it's not important to them, somehow.

i sell swiss watches since many years... and NEVER ship any watch out before check it 100% (it takes some time but it is natural for a good dealers)... and had NEVER any refund on a watch. And if i say a check up... i mean a FULL CHECK UP... i control also the smalles screws

Tourby, I said I was scared of modders, but you are a forum member I respect (The Zigmeister too!).

If only you were in the US, baby...thanks for the kind word in reply. ;(

[sssurfer]

The pair 'loose lever + unability to pull the crown out enough to set time' is a tricky one, as it requires two 'opposite' fixing: filing the CG down, AND shortening the stem. FxrAndy explained it at perfection.

Still, it would be an easy fix to any modder (too bad, no watchsmith would perform it, so you can't rely on your local watchsmith, if any).

Even still, to me DSN should take care of it. In the end you paid (and not even cheap) for a working watch.

If he doesn't, let us know. I am currently giving DSN free consulence on some projects of his, and I'll behave accordingly on how he will behave on you.

[Victoria]

The pair 'loose lever + unability to pull the crown out enough to set time' is a tricky one, as it requires two 'opposite' fixing: filing the CG down, AND shortening the stem. FxrAndy explained it at perfection.

Still, it would be an easy fix to any modder (too bad, no watchsmith would perform it, so you can't rely on your local watchsmith, if any).

But even still, to me DSN should take care of it. In the end you paid (and not even cheap) for a working watch.

GOOD! GRAZIE COSI TANTI, SSsurfer.

I was vacillating between emailing DSN back that, never mind, I'll solve it locally -- or -- telling him I expect him to FIX this watch, since aesthetically as you can see, it is nearly flawless.

That's what hurts. If it were a POS (or in Italian, POM) I wouldn't care. But its beauty is mocking me, saying, HAHA, idiot child. You believe in happy endings like the Mickey Mouse watch, huh? I'll teach you!

...not that I usually hear voices from watches. Much.

EDIT: Whew, I'm getting back my sense of humour and proportion. THANK YOU GUYS! God, that Freud fella was really on to something when he realised people have to talk out their probs, huh?

EDIT #2 REPLY: "If he doesn't, let us know. I am currently offering free consulences to DSN on some projects of his, and I'll behave accordingly on how he will behave with you."

OOOH. The cavalry have arrived!! I am so so very blessed to have you guys on my side. Quick, someone make me laugh before I start to cry...damn woman waterworks.

EDIT #3 REPLY: You have PM, caro mio. AND THANK YOU ABOUT DI SICA TOO! I can't believe I forgot that film...

EDIT #4 REPLY: Well, no email reply as yet, but then I don't really expect poor DSN (I mean the "poor" bit, it's not sarcasm, he does work very hard) to work on a Sunday, a this time, 7:00 PM his time.

Let me try to sleep.

When I woke up in the middle of the night, due to my now messed up biological clock -- big f-you very much to rep watch collecting -- I decided to change my Fiddy strap (?!). This is when this whole sorry mess was noticed. But tomorrow is another day! In China.

[sssurfer]

I edited my post, please read.

I have to go for a while now, be back later.

[subzero1]

I feel your pain, I truly do. I've had several watches from DSN pass through my hands. 3 were perfect from the get go, 2 were considerably less than perfect. Based on my experience I would say to keep returning it till you get a good one. That is the only real way to give feedback to a dealer on the quality of the products they are sending out. DSN watches are hand made and hand assembled, so there's variation there that would not exist as much from other dealers. But I will say this as someone who has owned PAMs from just about every dealer on the board - when you get a good DSN, one without issues, it BLOWS AWAY the reps from everyone else. DSN's are the only PAM reps I'd feel comfortable wearing around WIS friends. Sure, they may have this tiny detail wrong or that tiny detail wrong (these are reps after all), but the overall "feel" and presence of the watch is one of the very few that can match that of a gen. Look at the crystal, the much cleaner lines of the case, the texture on the dial, etc... Those things all "sell" the watch to a greater degree than on any other PAM rep I've had or seen.

So, moral of the story, for me there's hassle involved in dealing with DSN, but it's worth it in the end because the final results are so good when you do get one that is perfect.

[TK471]

My next move would be to send it to The Zigmeister. When you get it back from him you KNOW it's going to be perfect. Seems to me that would be the better alternative than hoping it's working correctly. The 112 issue is VERY minor, wouldn't bother sending that one back.

[Victoria]

I feel your pain, I truly do. I've had several watches from DSN pass through my hands. 3 were perfect from the get go, 2 were considerably less than perfect.

Thanks, Subzero1, for your reply.

This is a genuine question, not a "challenge" question:

Should one give Davidsen more leeway in mistakes since he is an artisan, unlike "mere" collectors like J&A? Maybe my/our approach to DSN is wrong?

Though clearly my expectations are commensurate with money spent, perhaps their individuality needs more patience, not less, from a buyer.

On the other hand, it's hard to praise him when certain other parts of the order were wrong. Trifling things, like missing parts, or wrong colour bands (second time in a row), but again, at that level of price, one would expect much closer attention to detail.

And his reply about the missing parts is utter silence.

Based on my experience I would say to keep returning it till you get a good one. That is the only real way to give feedback to a dealer on the quality of the products they are sending out. DSN watches are hand made and hand assembled, so there's variation there that would not exist as much from other dealers. But I will say this as someone who has owned PAMs from just about every dealer on the board - when you get a good DSN, one without issues, it BLOWS AWAY the reps from everyone else. DSN's are the only PAM reps I'd feel comfortable wearing around WIS friends. Sure, they may have this tiny detail wrong or that tiny detail wrong (these are reps after all), but the overall "feel" and presence of the watch is one of the very few that can match that of a gen. Look at the crystal, the much cleaner lines of the case, the texture on the dial, etc... Those things all "sell" the watch to a greater degree than on any other PAM rep I've had or seen.

Guess what?

A fellow newbie, but newbier than I, just PMed me this morning, as I was replying to posts here.

I told him practically the same thing you just told me, even though I am currently unhappy, and disappointed with DSN. I said that getting a working, near-perfect Davidsen watch must be amazing, because as flawed as mine were, it blows the others out of the water.

So, moral of the story, for me there's hassle involved in dealing with DSN, but it's worth it in the end because the final results are so good when you do get one that is perfect.

I have to be honest with you, and say that without a bit of friendly arm-twisting, dealing with Davidsen hasn't been easy.

It still isn't. He's replied, and with counsel from others, I am about to reply that I want to send this back to him, as well as the first faulty Fiddy, as promised.

We'll see.

I'm not replying until I consider every option, but my gut instinct is to let the original chap solve the problem.

Thanks again!

[Victoria]

The 112 issue is VERY minor, wouldn't bother sending that one back.

You are absolutely right, TK471. Thanks for keeping me grounded, too.

Please read my reply above, for the modder part. I'm not quite there yet, as a collector.

Step 1: Buy one rep watch. WOW! It runs, Canal St is great!

Step 2: Hmm, you know, there are better models out there. Internet?

Step 3: But is this site reputable? Why is it asking for my mother's maiden name and blood type?

Step 4: Register on RWG, etc.

Step 5: Crikey. I know absolutely nothing about rep watches. Let me start posting immediately and reach 1000 posts!

Step 6: Second watch is great! More more!

Step 7: Third watch has issues, but I can live with them! Ooops, first watch suddenly started having issues.

Step 8: Let's diversify merchants, or find better ones, even if they cost more.

Step 9: NICE WATCHES!

Step 10: I am almost at 500 posts! And 500 straps!!

Step 11: This sucks man. 50 watches, 30 problems. Not a good rate of return. What's next?

Step 12: Davidsen

Step 13: Same old, same old.

Step 14: Modding?

...

Step 1,000,000: Sssurfer

[hambone]

You know VB, DSN makes a very good watch however I am afraid his QC is hit and miss. My fiddy from him died only to spring back to life with a backward wind and a gentle whack. The foundation of the watch is quite sound and rather than do all this international shipping, I found a good watchsmith who corrected the problem.(It also ran 5 minutes to fast per day). It has to be frustrating to have all these problems and I hope that it gets worked out for you.

[Victoria]

You know VB, DSN makes a very good watch however I am afraid his QC is hit and miss. My fiddy from him died only to spring back to life with a backward wind and a gentle whack. The foundation of the watch is quite sound and rather than do all this international shipping, I found a good watchsmith who corrected the problem.(It also ran 5 minutes to fast per day). It has to be frustrating to have all these problems and I hope that it gets worked out for you.

I am an Europeanist par excellence, but having lived in the East, I know the mindset a LITTLE, however didn't help that I lived in perfectionist Japan.

There street vendor ladies wrap up your purchases with such delicacy, such refinity, and even though it costs a few bob, WITH SUCH TIME (15 minutes for a $5 bauble), that I can only compare that to the grace of Maison Chanel vendeuses, who treat every purchase as if it is an honour FOR THEM to handle it, no matter its cost.

EDIT: Is it a small wonder then, that the Japanese are culturally in love with France? There is a samurai tradition of chivalry, of delicacy of course, which I believe they think matches well with the attitudes of outer perfection of Versailles. When reality doesn't meet expectations, some Japanese tourists are so shocked, they have a syndrome for it: Paris Syndrome.

But China is not Japan, and also just because there is a cultural flavour, it doesn't mean it has to be followed by all people.

Yet, I believe others have pointed this out in the forum, isn't Davidsen Japanese living in Hong Kong? Has his perfectionism, his craft, suffered because of this?

China will get to Japan's level of proficiency. It's the middle step in a Capitalist business mindset, putting quality control above all else, or at least showing remorse, and responsibility when things go wrong. The last step is of course reindemnification, whether lawsuit money, or prison.

Whoa, I'm getting way ahead of myself, with this weighty talk.

But I'm just giving this whingy thread a little fibre to chew on.

[Kollektor]

Hi Vic,

Man, so sorry to hear you're having more problems with your watches :-(

Re your 112H. I also received one from DSN, and I'm very pleased with mine. I have the same issues with mine. CG screw is certainly not perfect and the words "Luminor" look like they may be a small percentage of a percent rotated counterclockwise (is that what you were referring to?). May even be an optical illusion in my case. These issues don't bother me. Not expecting perfection and overall I'm very pleased with it so far. The previous one came with a stripped lug, which for me was a show stopper. He gave me an exchange without any trouble.

Re your 127, as you know I also have the 127 and 217. First of all the lever is loose on my 217, so that's probably a common issue with his Fiddies. As regards the crown, did you try to twist it counter clockwise a few turns before pulling it out 2 clicks? I find that this often is necessary on most of my watches. If that doesn't work then it looks like you'll need to return it for an exchange. I'm hoping the CCW turn will solve your problem! Sometimes I fiddle for a moment and it just pops out.

Re straps, just send him an email and he'll probably straighten it out for you. Let me know what happens, V. Good luck!

[Victoria]

Hi Vic,

Man, so sorry to hear you're having more problems with your watches :-(

Thanks, Kollektor. I know for sure you share my discomfort...

Re your 112H. I also received one from DSN, and I'm very pleased with mine. I have the same issues with mine. CG screw is certainly not perfect and the words "Luminor" look like they may be a small percentage of a percent rotated counterclockwise (is that what you were referring to?).

NO WAY! I had thought of that when I first saw the 112 out of the box, but dismissed it because maybe I'm a newbie, and don't know; or maybe I'm just imagining things.

Yes, that's EXACTLY the thing. Luminor looks tilted somehow.

May even be an optical illusion in my case. These issues don't bother me.

Confirmed here. Didn't want to say, because I was embarrassed. Thanks for taking the leap for me.

And by the way, the dimple, and the slight twist are things which I would happily entrust to a modder. But my thinking is that if it's mechanical, especially on a replacement watch, that the collector should take care of that.

Not expecting perfection and overall I'm very pleased with it so far. The previous one came with a stripped lug, which for me was a show stopper. He gave me an exchange without any trouble.

Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. The PAM 112 has thread problems. Again, too embarrassed to mention this originally since I thought it might be seen as petty.

But I think DSN figured that might be an issue, because he sent me (completely unsolicited by me) two springbar screws just in case.

My guess is that his factory made all these cases, and they caught the thread problem on the 112 -- you're not the first person to mention this -- too late.

So instead of throwing them away, he just either tried to improve the casings himself (sometimes not very well), or sent them as is...

EDIT UPDATE: Just received an email from David. Since I didn't want to seem like a perpetual whiner, I didn't mention the PAM 112 problems, which as you see, are small. Well, small if you consider threaded lugs, crooked or off-kilter dial printing, and a dimple on the crown guard small.

But the springbar mystery has been solved. He sent them thinking I had asked for them. Slight miscommunication problem, is all. However, if he sent them thinking I had asked for them, it begs the question -- if he hadn't, I would've had to scramble and get springbars from River, etc. to be able to wear the PAM 112!! Hello.

Fortunately, I had ordered by coincidence these very River springbars JUST IN CASE. They are taking a while to come though.

Re your 127, as you know I also have the 127 and 217. First of all the lever is loose on my 217, so that's probably a common issue with his Fiddies.

I'm sorry to hear that, Kollektor.

His original Fiddy lever was perfect. Nice and tight, which apparently is a common tell with reps when it is not.

Another thing, his crown guard had no 'dimple' showing in the Fiddy but both the new Fiddy and PAM 112 have this cosmetic issue.

As regards the crown, did you try to twist it counter clockwise a few turns before pulling it out 2 clicks?

Good suggestion!

I immediately ran to it, and did as you suggested. Nada.

The CG is just too lowset to allow the crown to pop out to its full length, I believe.

I find that this often is necessary on most of my watches. If that doesn't work then it looks like you'll need to return it for an exchange. I'm hoping the CCW turn will solve your problem! Sometimes I fiddle for a moment and it just pops out.

Alas. But thanks for the effort!

Re straps, just send him an email and he'll probably straighten it out for you. Let me know what happens, V. Good luck!

I have, twice, the first time in my ecstatic email of premature thanks.

And both times in my usual detailed fashion, so it sits easy on the eyes of a foreigner.

1-

2-

3-

Etc.

Nothing. Ah well. I have hopes.

[sssurfer]

the lever is loose on my 217, so that's probably a common issue with his Fiddies

Do you mean loose lever in open position, or closed position?

Step 1,000,000: Sssurfer

[Victoria]

Do you mean loose lever in open position, or closed position?

Hey, SSsurfer.

In closed position, the lever is completely loose. It holds, but it has no tension whatsoever. I'm scared to move it around for fear of flapping completely open.

That's why the idea of swapping the CGs is so appealing to me, since it would solve all these cosmetic and mechanical problems.

Once the stem is shortened and tightened (because I recently heard it rattle inside), then the new CG would fit better and look better (no loose lever, no dimple). THEORETICALLY.

I will take it to the watchsmiths by Tuesday, and see. THANKS SSSURFER!

"Where there is life, there is hope, and where there are rep watches, there is adventure!" Feel free to .sig this people.

[sssurfer]

Thanks, Vicky. As supposed.

I was also especially asking Kollektor about his observation.

[MK08]

I think it's an overall mindset in the rep community to be satisfied with shoddy craftsmanship and nonexistant QC. Many of us make excuses for why the watches come to us in what would be considered any other time unexceptable condition. I did the same thing and offered the same praise for dealers like Davidsen, but I've tired of dealing with mundane problems that should be addressed before shipping, honestly I would hardly call Davidsen an artist. A true artist gives attention to the details, and stripped crown guard and lug screws, loose crown guard levers and his own unique lug and case dimentions just don't add up as far as I'm concerned. That's why my Davidsen reps have left the building and I'm adding a few more gens (Panerai included) to my collection and slowly clearing out my other reps, I guess I'm tiring of the whole game. Anyway sorry to rant on, hope you get your issues cleared up and enjoy the new additions.

[Kollektor]

SSurfer - it's slightly loose when closed, of course. Nothing unbearable, mind you. I understand and appreciate your point, MK08, but we're not talking about legitimate trade here, so expectations should be adjusted IMHO. However, can't blame you for a moment for your decision and I do see the other side of the argument.

Bottom line - I'm very satisfited with my DSN watches and would buy from him again. Those mods alone would have put the watch at least $100 over the price he asked. The lume on the 112H is fantastic, rivaling my modded lume with one of our top modders here, and I prefer the "L Swiss Made L" on the bottom to anything else available - a pet peeve of mine. The 217 is very nice--better than the 127 as the font colour is better. Thin, I know, but I prefer it over the gen.

Vic, sounds like a watchsmith would be a good bet. Just the return shipping alone will cost you minimum $30 without tracking, and about $60 with. Let me know what happens with the fix