Straps - The Process

[lysis]

Here's an interesting link to Pietro Germano's website that shows him making leather straps. Germano is considered one of

the masters of making pre-V replica Panerais -- his California dial replicas used to command thousands before he stopped making them.

http://www.germano.de/index.php?option=com...=3&Itemid=5

[tootall]

This really bugs the crap out of me. How can some say "handcrafted only", when he shows a variety of machines to finish and stitch his straps??

That is not handmade. Period.

Edited September 26, 2007 by tootall

[TeeJay]

This really bugs the crap out of me. How can some say "handcrafted only", when he shows a variety of machines to finish and stitch his straps??

That is not handmade. Period.

The difference, is there in the words you typed.

"Hand crafted" Vs "Hand Made".

I've worked on projects before where I had to use power tools to do things (dremel etc) and although I wouldn't class the work as "hand made" (as it wasn't filed through elbow-grease and a hand-file) it was still "hand crafted" as it was done by a person, rather than a CNC grinder (or as would compare to this, a computerized sewing machine) I'd suggest that that's the case with these straps

[tootall]

The difference, is there in the words you typed.

"Hand crafted" Vs "Hand Made".

I've worked on projects before where I had to use power tools to do things (dremel etc) and although I wouldn't class the work as "hand made" (as it wasn't filed through elbow-grease and a hand-file) it was still "hand crafted" as it was done by a person, rather than a CNC grinder (or as would compare to this, a computerized sewing machine) I'd suggest that that's the case with these straps

Well that might be true, but... the dictionary defines it differently

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/handcraft

So it is a lie to say it's hand crafted or hand made. It involves a mechanical device to complete it somehow, which takes it out of this realm. The only part he could say is handcrafted would be the cutting.

But this is not unusal. Almost every TC strap is done this same way. It is called handmade but there are many mechanical devices used in the process.

Edited September 26, 2007 by tootall

[TeeJay]

Well that might be true, but... the dictionary defines it differently

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/handcraft

So it is a lie to say it's hand crafted or hand made. It involves a mechanical device to complete it somehow, which takes it out of this realm. The only part he could say is handcrafted would be the cutting.

But this is not unusal. Almost every TC strap is done this same way. It is called handmade but there are many mechanical devices used in the process.

I'm not going to argue dictionary definitions with you, we'll just have to agree to disagree To be honest, as long as a person is in control of the tools (ie it's not a computer operated automatic machine) then I would personally consider that to be good enough to be considered hand-crafted, although I would be happy to agree that there is still a difference between using a hand-operated tool (like a hand file) and using a 'labor-saving' tool like a dremel, as one process is involving 'elbow grease', the other just requires the skill to use the tool properly

[tootall]

I'm not going to argue dictionary definitions with you, we'll just have to agree to disagree To be honest, as long as a person is in control of the tools (ie it's not a computer operated automatic machine) then I would personally consider that to be good enough to be considered hand-crafted, although I would be happy to agree that there is still a difference between using a hand-operated tool (like a hand file) and using a 'labor-saving' tool like a dremel, as one process is involving 'elbow grease', the other just requires the skill to use the tool properly

I understand your point. We do have to understand as well, that this is a language issue. This guy is German, so the translation comes over different. I would say literally translated, he means hand made. But that's just my opinion.

My stance has always been that if a mechanical device is used in any form or part of the process you cannot claim handmade.

[wjlamp]

I understand your point. We do have to understand as well, that this is a language issue. This guy is German, so the translation comes over different. I would say literally translated, he means hand made. But that's just my opinion.

My stance has always been that if a mechanical device is used in any form or part of the process you cannot claim handmade.

These days {present},and some time in the past, the term hand made is ,was, used to mark a product of being made manually,more often than not,adding

an exotic, special aura to it, and a higher selling price to boot,but never a better product

The fine distinction between the use of machinery for detailing and time consuming finishing touches,is very difficult to quantify as a measure of labeling a product as hand made or not.

It is accepted, in the field ,that if the added machine work is less than 40 percent in absolute values,the term "hand made" is justified

[tootall]

These days {present},and some time in the past, the term hand made is ,was, used to mark a product of being made manually,more often than not,adding

an exotic, special aura to it, and a higher selling price to boot,but never a better product

The fine distinction between the use of machinery for detailing and time consuming finishing touches,is very difficult to quantify as a measure of labeling a product as hand made or not.

It is accepted, in the field ,that if the added machine work is less than 40 percent in absolute values,the term "hand made" is justified

What field is this that you are reffering to? I mean if that is the case, then 99% of things I have are handmade from socks to jeans to my couch.

And we are not talking about simple touches. He is stitching the strap by machine.

Edited September 26, 2007 by tootall

[FxrAndy]

I would have to agree with Tootall hand made means you use hand tools not machine tool in this case.

[wjlamp]

What field is this that you are reffering to? I mean if that is the case, then 99% of things I have are handmade from socks to jeans to my couch.

And we are not talking about simple touches. He is stitching the strap by machine.

Sorry,for not making it clear.By "field" I mean the market.

Don't be surprised by the seemingly high percentage of machine aided, added value.

For example: The dyeing of the leather used, in the fist place ,the polishing of the edges after the cutting and the stitching ,don't add up to it.

That is different than, using presses to cut and slice the leather,glue it with sonics ,clear the edges etc.etc., in a production line

Anyway, the point is, that the guy, as a good artisan,has no second thoughts,sharing his art with all interested

[tootall]

Sorry,for not making it clear.By "field" I mean the market.

Don't be surprised by the seemingly high percentage of machine aided, added value.

For example: The dyeing of the leather used, in the fist place ,the polishing of the edges after the cutting and the stitching ,don't add up to it.

That is different than, using presses to cut and slice the leather,glue it with sonics ,clear the edges etc.etc., in a production line

Anyway, the point is, that the guy, as a good artisan,has no second thoughts,sharing his art with all interested

Sorry,

I don't understand any of what you typed except for the last line. Not being rude, I really don't understand what you were trying to say.

I have no second thought about helping others either. I have helped quite a few people learn how to make their own straps.

[TeeJay]

Here's another couple of examples of 'hand-crafted' things which are done with the aid of mechanical tools...

Tattoos. Unless one is having a tattoo done in traditional Japanese or Maori manner, the tattoo artist uses a mechanical needle to insert the inks. They are still however, personally in control of the machine. It does, not only what they want it to do, but what they make it do.

Another example, is a guinea pig hutch I build a few years back. I used a jigsaw to cut the wood panals to size (easier than using a hand saw) and then used an electric screwdriver to put the screws in (easier than using a hand screwdriver) The hutch was still 'hand-crafted', even though power tools where used, and that was the point I was trying to illustrate with regards the straps.

As for the misunderstood comment, I suspect what was meant, was that the strap maker was happy for people to see his methods of manufacture, and was being 100% open with his methods, rather than simply saying he did something, and then doing it in a different way.

Edited September 27, 2007 by TeeJay

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

Thank you for this find... As some know, I have been dabbling in strap making. I was amused to see that many of the "hand tools" he uses are very similar to those I have gathered together. As you can see by those pictures, its not rocket science here folks. I think this should make it apparent to most that the extreme prices paid for these straps are insane.

The cost of making a leather strap is about $5 (when using standard leather hide and thread). It takes approximately two hours of fabrication time to make a strap... And yet we pay in upwards of $200 for some!

Go figure!

[wjlamp]

Sorry,

I don't understand any of what you typed except for the last line. Not being rude, I really don't understand what you were trying to say.

I have no second thought about helping others either. I have helped quite a few people learn how to make their own straps.

There is no such thing as being rude in a well mannered exchange of opinions.That remark was not needed

I ll try to say it in everyday language.

'" The total contribution of the aid, that the use of machinery adds, is not to the point to say, that the product is not hand made "

It is only a matter of product management economics.

Hope that is more clear now

[tootall]

There is no such thing as being rude in a well mannered exchange of opinions.That remark was not needed

I ll try to say it in everyday language.

'" The total contribution of the aid, that the use of machinery adds, is not to the point to say, that the product is not hand made "

It is only a matter of product management economics.

Hope that is more clear now

I still am not getting it, but I'll take a try.

Are you saying that if a person uses a machine in the process it does not disqulaify it as being handmade?

Because that is your opinion, but the fact is that it would be incorrect. Like I said, if that were the case then 99% of the things I own could be considered handmade. But they aren't. Did you look at the last few photo's on his site? He shows plainly that he uses a sewing machine. Now stitching is about 50% of a strap, so by any definition given here that would disqualify it. Mechanical devices are what make a product handmade or not. And he most certainly is using mechanical devices. To say it doesn't matter says that nothing can be classified one way or the other.

[wjlamp]

I still am not getting it, but I'll take a try.

Are you saying that if a person uses a machine in the process it does not disqulaify it as being handmade?

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Yes.It is that simple. If you take the production stages one by one and add an 'x' value for each one separately,you can calculate the exact percentages.

You are saying below that stitching is 50 percent of a strap. That's a little bit liberal estimation.

Please notice that I am not saying that . I said the "percentage of the added value of work done that is aided by the use of machinery"

[tootall]

I am not arguing opinion here. Go read this link:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/handmade

By definiton there is zero room for machines. That is fact.

Furthermore, 50% actually was a conservative estimation. The only things that a strap have are cutting, gluing, sewing, and finishing. Of that list, the sewing takes the most time. And represents the overall look of a strap more than all the others combined.

[wjlamp]

I am not arguing opinion here. Go read this link:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/handmade

By definiton there is zero room for machines. That is fact.

Furthermore, 50% actually was a conservative estimation. The only things that a strap have are cutting, gluing, sewing, and finishing. Of that list, the sewing takes the most time. And represents the overall look of a strap more than all the others combined.

There's no need to argue.There's no argument at all.

Make a comment, if you know the subject, about the 'swiss made' label. How much, of a watch work and materials is needed , to be labeled , Swiss Made?

That is directly related to our polite exchange of opinions in here.

PS That percentage I am referring to, is a market accepted ratio not my own estimation

[tootall]

There's no need to argue.There's no argument at all.

Make a comment, if you know the subject, about the 'swiss made' label. How much, of a watch work and materials is needed , to be labeled , Swiss Made?

That is directly related to our polite exchange of opinions in here.

PS That percentage I am referring to, is a market accepted ratio not my own estimation

That's my point exactly. The definition of Swiss made has the percentage in it's definition. Where as the definition of handmade does not. It is simple. There is no accepted percentage to determine handmade or not, it's simply made by hand or not.

[pubus]

yup, Germano's are handcrafted, tootall's right about it, he doesnt hand stitch them. A machine usage cannot compete with hand made

check my sig's link to see real amateur hand made

[TeeJay]

'Swiss Made'... Watches where parts are outsourced and fabricated in China and shipped to Switzerland for assembly... Not exactly the best analogy.

Stitching does not make up 50% of a strap by any stretch of the imagination. at least 80% of a strap is the material it's made of, then there's any filling, glues and stitching to hold it all together.

While I agree that there is certainly a dictionary definition of what is 'hand made', there is also, as mentioned, a tollerance for using labor-saving tools to make that 'hand job' ( ) easier. As I illustrated with tattoos, or the hutch I made last year... At the end of the day, it's a matter of semantics and personal interperetation.

[tootall]

'Swiss Made'... Watches where parts are outsourced and fabricated in China and shipped to Switzerland for assembly... Not exactly the best analogy.

Stitching does not make up 50% of a strap by any stretch of the imagination. at least 80% of a strap is the material it's made of, then there's any filling, glues and stitching to hold it all together.

While I agree that there is certainly a dictionary definition of what is 'hand made', there is also, as mentioned, a tollerance for using labor-saving tools to make that 'hand job' ( ) easier. As I illustrated with tattoos, or the hutch I made last year... At the end of the day, it's a matter of semantics and personal interperetation.

Have you ever made a strap?

[pubus]

Stitching does not make up 50% of a strap by any stretch of the imagination. at least 80% of a strap is the material it's made of, then there's any filling, glues and stitching to hold it all together.

dude, sorry, but this is so wrong any leather can be brought to superb quality with oils and finishs. The thing that really matter are edges and stitchings.

But that is my point of view and your experiance may vary

Cheers,

Kuba

[TeeJay]

Have you ever made a strap?

No, I haven't. I have, however, worked on many other projects which were 'by hand', some requiring more use of tools than others. Look at the examples I gave previously of where 'power tools' were involved, but the overall project was still done 'by hand'. I notice that the two times they've been cited, they have been ignored...

Is a painting not done 'by hand', because an artist uses a brush rather than their fingers?

Is a sculpture not done 'by hand', because the artist uses a variety of tools?

As I said, I accept that the dictionary definition is as it is, but seriously, in the real world, there are loads of things which people consider to be 'hand made' even when the artisan involved uses labor-saving tools. The tool is not taking anything away from the skill of the artisan, it just improves their productivity.

dude, sorry, but this is so wrong any leather can be brought to superb quality with oils and finishs. The thing that really matter are edges and stitchings.

But that is my point of view and your experiance may vary

Cheers,

Kuba

Edging and stitching are 'window dressing' of a strap. They are the 'icing on the cake'. As I said before, the majority component of the strap, is the material the primary shapes are made from. That's not to say that the other things are not important, of course they are. The point I was making, was that stitching, in terms of physical composition, does not make up 50% of a strap. Aesthetically, sure, I'd say it might well contribute 50% of the appearance, but certainly not 50% of the physical composition.

Edited September 28, 2007 by TeeJay

[tootall]

No, I haven't. I have, however, worked on many other projects which were 'by hand', some requiring more use of tools than others. Look at the examples I gave previously of where 'power tools' were involved, but the overall project was still done 'by hand'. I notice that the two times they've been cited, they have been ignored...

Is a painting not done 'by hand', because an artist uses a brush rather than their fingers?

Is a sculpture not done 'by hand', because the artist uses a variety of tools?

The reason they have been ignored is because to YOU they are considered hand made, but they are NOT by definiton. And thus your opinion is not fact, so therefore your idea of them being handmade is incorrect.

An artists painting is using hand tools. Nothing mechanical there.

A sculpturer who uses hammer and chisel again is using hand tools and no mechanical devices. If a sculpturer was to use power/mechanical tools, this would take them out of the hand made realm.

As I said, I accept that the dictionary definition is as it is, but seriously, in the real world, there are loads of things which people consider to be 'hand made' even when the artisan involved uses labor-saving tools. The tool is not taking anything away from the skill of the artisan, it just improves their productivity.

Edging and stitching are 'window dressing' of a strap. They are the 'icing on the cake'. As I said before, the majority component of the strap, is the material the primary shapes are made from. That's not to say that the other things are not important, of course they are. The point I was making, was that stitching, in terms of physical composition, does not make up 50% of a strap. Aesthetically, sure, I'd say it might well contribute 50% of the appearance, but certainly not 50% of the physical composition.

I don't know where you keep getting this "in the real world" stuff. No one I know of, says a person can use mechanical devices in the process and it can still be labeled as handmade. That is a fabrication of your own opinion. But not "real world" standard.

You have never made a strap. I have made many of them. I can tell you that in a few cases stitching may be more asthetic, but in the majority of cases it makes up a structual part of the strap. Furthermore, only people who want to pervert the simple definition to increase profits, notarity, etc are the ones who claim as long as you work with your hands it is hand made, no matter the tool. My point of 99% of the things I own, could be labeled as hand made if that were the case, is what is being ignored.