Teddy Bear

[Victoria]

Is that the teddy you sleep with Double T?

This is the one I sleep with.

Was thinking of calling him Moe.

[HauteHippie]

Guilt-ridden white liberals (especially women) love going to Africa to pretend they're making a difference. And these brainwashed Westerners often have to find out the hard way that there are very good reasons why Africa is in the shape it's in. Hint: They're not backwards because of colonialism, they're backwards in spite of it. And coming to the realization that their belief system is actually backwards, as opposed to "different than but just as good as" our own belief systems, is key.

I do hope she gets out OK, and learns a valuable lesson about dealing with savages.

[HauteHippie]

Where are the Gods these days if they allow us to commit such flagrant stupidity in their names?

God is an absent father. He obviously doesn't care about us any more. Is that our fault or his? Did we take his name in vain one time too many?

Was God ever really around much? Does President Bush really talk to Jesus, or is that something the alcohol and drugs did to his brain?

[HauteHippie]

People in the Church of England have suggested that the recent floods might be 'God's Punishment' for sinfull ways. The weather (world wide) has not been good in recent years... Tsunami, earthquakes, floods, typhoons, hurricanes etc... Maybe those are Allah's punishments to Mankind...

If there was an "allah", he would still be creaming his pants over the WTC. I wonder if god intentionally acts in ways that give him plausible deniability.... Intelligent design, weather manipulation...

[ryyannon]

I don't know about Allah, but for me, the definitive proof of God's existence would be if she removed that damned ring from her nose:

[HauteHippie]

As in my above reply to Victoria, moderate Muslims do (and are) speaking out in this issue. One reason why moderate Muslims are perceived to be silent is because, the press marginalizes their comments, because it allows for demonization of Islam to sell copy, and another, is because Muslims are taught not to involve themselves in the affairs of others, and to be respectfull of other's privacy. This is, sadly, why many of the UK's 'homegrown' terrorists were not discovered by members of their communities or families.

I'm sure more than a few of the family members in the UK knew. Would these guys go blow themselves up without having some sort of plan for the well-being of their household? Or is violence just integral to Islam? It's a valid question, and when the Pope raised it, Muslims proved him wrong by..... threatening to cut off his head. Message: Don't call us intolerant or we'll kill you.

Oh and here's another recent headline coming from these "moderates" : Teddy Bear Protestors Don't Represent Us. (http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3940765&page=1) So thousands marching in the streets is 'fringe extremism'? Strange. When I think of 'fringe extremism' I picture the klan rallies where 5-10 people show up from their side. Actions speak louder than words.

[Victoria]

Strange. When I think of 'fringe extremism' I picture the klan rallies where 5-10 people show up from their side. Actions speak louder than words.

Problematic example of a fringe terror group. Here's a counter one:

Fringe groups in Islam have always been the case. If you read the otherwise hilarious Dan Brown books (the best of the lot is Angels & Demons), one touches on one such fringe Islamic group, the Hashshashin. As most people know, the word "assassin" comes from that.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin

"Most Muslim contemporaries were obviously suspicious of these "Holy Killers"; in fact they were described using the term Batini. The term was sometimes used pejoratively to refer to those, especially Ismaili, who distinguished an inner, esoteric level of meaning (batin) in the Qur'an. This constant religious estrangement would eventually see them go so far as allying with the Occidental Christians against Muslims on a number of occasions. [...]

The group transformed the act of murder into a system directed largely against Seljuk Muslim rulers who had been persecuting their sects. They were meticulous in killing the targeted individual, seeking to do so without any additional casualties and innocent loss of life, although they were careful to cultivate their terrifying reputation by slaying their victims in public, often in mosques. Typically, they approached using a disguise. Their weapon of choice being a dagger, they rejected poison, bows and other weapons that allowed the attacker to escape. For unarmed combat, the Hashshashin practiced a fighting style called Janna which incorporates striking techniques, grappling and low kicks. However, under no circumstances did they commit suicide, preferring to be killed by their captors."

This could be Al-Qaeda today word for word:

"The group inspired terror out of all proportion to their scant numbers and territory. The members were organized into rigid classes, based upon their initiation into the secrets of the order. The devotees constituted a class that sought martyrdom and followed orders with unquestioned devotion, orders which included assassination. Because of the secretive nature of the order, it has often been invoked in conspiracy theories."

Proto-anarchists, using their religious background to incite terror amongst both the powers-that-be (whom they considered corrupt and un-Islamic) and the general populace. You never knew who or what they would target.

So these kinds of terror tactics can be a part of Islam, and yet not.

What is true is that the Hashshashin were only eradicated not by fellow Muslims, but by the Mongol hordes who conquered them. I'm sure you can understand my inference.

Atat

[ryyannon]

There's something terribly sad about trying to justify one's beliefs, particularly when they touch on such a private sphere as faith, revelation and/or mystical experience. I consider myself a "Buddhist" because somewhere along the line I decided that it was a philosophy - rather than a religion - that I felt the most comfortable with: it made sense, and part of that sense was the Buddhist belief that "the way is the way" - that any - or no - religion, philosophy or even any particular effort is needed to achieve Salvation. The particular kicker is that for Buddhists of the brighter variety, we're already saved, but basically just too stupid to realize it.

At its very purest level, any religion is a marvellous and shining thing. For that matter, so is a flower or Ford Edsel, but unlike religion, they just won't go the distance. Those touched by this understanding are forever transformed - in the best possible way - even if the remainder of their lives may be as ordinary as anyone else's.

Illumination is not like winning at one of the million-dollar Vegas slots: it's all about getting back to work and doing the best you can for yourself and others (the same, really) in this shitty/perfect sphere of reality that we inhabit - while trying not to totally forget that ultimate moment of enlightenment that briefly flashed through your besotted neurons.

TeeJay should have nothing to justify: from what he's said - despite being drawn into impossible discussions of the semantics and logic of his choices - he's on the right road: the one he's chosen. For reasons that no one will ever know - and which should never have to be explained - it happens to be called Islam.

Again, and from what he's said, I have no doubt that his experience was life-changing, life-affirming, powerful and authentic. Experiences such as that - if I may be presumptuous enough to assume that that was what he was trying to convey - are autonomous and sufficent unto themselves. They make life worth living, and are the diametrical opposite of the death-cults that any religious or political system can be turned into.

Every cycle of history brings its high tide of fanatics, psychopaths and assorted true believers whose ideas of faith and belief are ultimately destructive: by its fruits shall ye know the tree.

Personally, and judging from what he's said and what he's attempting to accomplish, I'd rather have Teejay in my corner in my hour of need - and probably during much less dramatic moments as well - than many of the people who are trying to question his faith in himself and the path he's chosen.

[Victoria]

At its very purest level, any religion is a marvellous and shining thing. For that matter, so is a flower or Ford Edsel, but unlike religion, they just won't go the distance. Those touched by this understanding are forever transformed - in the best possible way - even if the remainder of their lives may be as ordinary as anyone else's.

What a gorgeous paragraph, brimming with illumination.

Tangentially, I seem to love the RWG minds that are touched by Buddhism or Zen, in some way. Interesting.

Personally, and judging from what he's said and what he's attempting to accomplish, I'd rather have Teejay in my corner in my hour of need - and probably during much less dramatic moments as well - than many of the people who are trying to question his faith in himself and the path he's chosen.

I agree.

However, I confess it makes it easier to agree and want to side with TeeJay, not just because of the brand (if you will) of Islam he has converted to, namely that of the teachings of the Holy Qu'ran and not the hadith as well, but because of the person he is, irrespective of his religion. If he were a Wahhabist, it would be more difficult.

The same is true of anyone who is a fundamentalist, be it Islamic, Christian, Orthodox...but you'll note I can't say Buddhist.

Anyway, it's been a great thread overall. Loads of fun. We'll see what tomorrow brings and if I change my mind, but I bid it adieu.

[ryyannon]

/...

The same is true of anyone who is a fundamentalist, be it Islamic, Christian, Orthodox...but you'll note I can't say Buddhist.

Not generally known, but competing schools of Buddhist thought would regularly and literally bash each other's brains out in Tibet over totally irrelevant questions of doctrine.

Maybe it was just a way of staying warm up there, which might explain why Buddhism never became particularly militant in the warmer climes of the Asian countries in which it implanted itself...

[hambone]

95% of acts of terrorism, the greatest number of murders, human suffering, degradation, torture, and execution of women are done in the name of Islam. Fu*k those insane, deluded co*ksu*kers and may they burn in hell. Twice. The majority of the suffering in the world today falls directly into the arms of islamic fundamentalists who could give a spit about the rights and beliefs of anyone else. These horrible excuses for human beings are bringing down our world to the level of the dark ages .What is good and decent in the world is constantly under attack by these sick and deluded whack jobs and it is the responsibility of other members of Islam to root them out, ostrasize and punish them rather than be silent, and pretend that their religion is under attack, and lash out at those who are rightfully outraged by the actions of these fly face mutants. No one in their right mind would even think of demanding a middle age teacher be exectuted if she named a teddy bear 'God' or 'Jesus Christ'.

[Seadweller4000]

I really do not think we should simplify that complex topic this way.

To understand and solve the issue between the west and the middle east will be the main task of foreign affairs during the next century in my opinion.

And it won't be answered by dropping a bomb, that for sure. The arrabic world was the leading culture 800-1100 years ago, they build hospitals and knew how to take out an apendix while in europe the only way known to heal people was to venesect until the patient was cured to death. Opening a human body was blasphemy in the christian world. They also had the leading educational system, in fact, there was no system in europe at all. That was when the popes and the european gentry decided to invade them and called out the crusades.

Today the sides have significantly changed, it is popular for the arabic elite to send their kids in the west for a better education. The Saudis for example have a healthcare system which sends them to Germany or the USA for health care.

They drive foreign cars and hire western engineers. Remember we are regarding their upper class. In the last centuries, islamic south african countrys have always been the loser. They are often the ressource-richest but the poorest at the same time. A large company in the west has usually a better national product than one of these countries. They see our wealth and sense their lack for something they can be proud of.

If we regard now on how these countries get their income, we'll see that it is parted in export of goods such as oil, coffee, comestible goods, tobacco and foreign aid. The foreign aid is usually taken by warlords or government. The export goods that reach the EU or the States are put under very high taxes to protect our own agriculture.

In most countries, the main part of the population suffers from starving, they're not able to read or write. They are informed by their Imams during devine service. These guys are pretty much in charge usually, sometimes they're just warlords with a small militia... They pretend to be wise and strictly religious, but in fact they are only telling their way of view to keep the status quo. They make sure that everyone in their community gets to know that we in the western world might have the wealth, but they have the only true religion. Polemic at its best. Lets call them whitebeards.

It is a very old way to stay in charge by installing an enemy the people can focus on. By the way, it is the same "we against them" feeling that appears here, too. Just think of "coalition of the willing", "axis of evil" and other populistic frases. This sort of foreign politic adds fuel to the fire.

This mixture of poverty, bad (if none) education and the contrast to the wealthy west creates a very effective breeding ground for fanatics. In my opinion it is no wonder we can see the mob raving around everytime someone "hurts" their religious feelings - because they are told to feel hurt.

It seems ironically only at first sight , that of all things a teacher who tried to educate these people gets in the line of their fire. But it is in the interest of those white beards in charge to keep the population uneducated. The Taliban were top-notch in that, really.

But this all has nothing to do with the Islam as a religion at all, but with the hurt feeling of inferiority combined with an attitude of "me and my rifle will defend this culture" insinuated by whitebearded old men!

I gotta admit, my post became just as simplyfied, but you could write books on this topic without even scratching the surface of this complexity of problems.

[baglc1]

Sorry, but that old expression "When in Rome..." comes to mind here. I don't approve of what's happened, and it actually sounds like the 'complaint' against the teacher were actually motivated by personal beef, not 'religious objection', but the fact of the matter is, as Ken pointed out above, the teacher should have been much more aware of what would, or would not be acceptable, so responsibility for that, should also rest on the agency which employed her to work in the country.

In all honesty, she's getting off lightly, given that she could have been on the receiving end of fourty lashes. Two weeks in a filthy jail, and then deported from the country. Certainly not as bad as the tabloids, which were practically begging for her to be flogged, just so they could shift more copies of their sleazy rags, where suggesting would be the outcome.

Also, before people start getting all worked up about Islam and Muslims, just remember that these people in Sudan are about as 'Islamic', as the 'Christians' who live in the UK and US and never set foot in a church or observe any other religious holidays. I'm sure the people there go through all the motions involved with Islam, but in an indoctrinated way rather than one of personal choice. It wouldn't matter if the people in Sudan where Muslims, Christians, Buddhists or even Athiests, they would still have a [censored]ed up country and outlook on life.

If anyone wants to start saying anything else against Islam, they'd better have read the Holy Qur'an and actually make quotes from it, rather than just acting in a manner which, if attributed to something other than religion, would be considered both bigoted and racist.

Is this the 2500 year old TeeJay again, still got your head buried in the sand letting it all happen, turning a blind eye, maybe they should have silenced the bear.

[TeeJay]

In your next prayers, can you ask him to be a little less ambiguous next time?

I could, but I think they'd have more impact coming from you personally

So you do agree with Sharia law then?

Of course. [Edit to clarify] and by that I mean I agree with Sharia law as specified in the Holy Qur'an, not Sharia law as influenced by the hadiths of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. I would not be a Muslim if I did not agree to submit to all aspects of Allah's will. I never said that I did not agree with Sharia law. I said that I do not agree with the way this person has been treated, because the complaints against her were motivated by spite and personal malice, not legitimate complaint. As I said before, any government which acts in such away has moved away from the principles of Islam. True Sharia Law gives the accused the right to defend themselves and be fairly judged. It is not simply a harsh system of pre-determined punishments where the accused is automatically considered guilty.

No, it's just bad weather.

Keep telling yourself that

TeeJay i dont need to be so enlighted to the Islam way as i had more or less only muslims friends until i was 12-13 and i still have many i consider friends but they dont cear to much of the religion they eat pig and such

Dani, obviously you do need to be educated about Islam, as you clearly do not understand the guidelines on what is halal.

I don't care how many Muslim friends you had as a child, have you ever personally fully read the Holy Qur'an?

If, as you say, they 'don't care too much' for the religion, and eat pork, then they should not call themselves Muslims.

If there was an "allah", he would still be creaming his pants over the WTC. I wonder if god intentionally acts in ways that give him plausible deniability.... Intelligent design, weather manipulation...

This has nothing to do with 9-11, it is an entirely different issue. With regards 9-11, that, and other acts like it, are NOT in anyway sanctioned or condoned by the Holy Qur'an, infact, they are utterly condemned as 'exceeding the bounds' (as Allah does not love those who exceed the bounds) The Holy Qur'an also forbidsonefrom 'throwing onesself into destruction'. It specifically forbids suicide. The beliefs held by such extremists are perversions of Islam, incomplete pieces of scripture taken entirely out of context, and which, when put in context, do not suggest the violent actions extremists believe that they do.

I'm sure more than a few of the family members in the UK knew. Would these guys go blow themselves up without having some sort of plan for the well-being of their household?

This is the whole point of extremists: The do not think in such terms. There are passages in the Holy Qur'an which say that a person should not follow the 'beliefs of their fathers' if they (their beliefs) were inconsistent with Islam. These are impressionable people who have been maniplulated into following a corruption of Islam, which is why they would indeed have no problem with blowing themselves, and others up, despite specific instruction not to do so, because they are choosing to ignore those pieces of text.

Or is violence just integral to Islam? It's a valid question

Indeed it is a valid question. One piece the Holy Qur'an states:

Fighting is enjoined on you, and is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.

A clear example that people sometimes have to do things they do not like.

However, this passage is preceded (so must be balanced by, and considered with)

And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the bounds, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the bounds.

As mentioned previously, to fight against people who do not fight with you, is exceeding the bounds, as is doing so in a way which is forbidden.

This is the point I was trying to make about fragments of scripture being taken out of context, and then used to manipulate impressionable people into a course of action which is criticized and forbidden by the rest of the Holy Qur'an.

and when the Pope raised it, Muslims proved him wrong by..... threatening to cut off his head. Message: Don't call us intolerant or we'll kill you.

Correction: EXTREMIST Muslims threatened to cut off his head.

So thousands marching in the streets is 'fringe extremism'?

Compared to between 1.1 billion and 1.8 billion followers worldwide, yes.

When I think of 'fringe extremism' I picture the klan rallies where 5-10 people show up from their side. Actions speak louder than words.

Whatever visualizations make it easier Same point as above though. 5-10 Klan members do not represent the majority opinion of the Aryan race. A few thousand extremist Muslims (living in a country which has moved away from the true principles of Islam (as can be confirmed by actually reading the Holy Qur'an)) do not represent the majority opinion of all Muslims world-wide.

Yes, actions speak louder than words, but don't make the mistake of judging a group by the actions of a minority.

This could be Al-Qaeda today word for word:

Except for one crucial factor:

under no circumstances did they commit suicide, preferring to be killed by their captors."

A small distinction, but, it makes a whole lot of difference.

There's something terribly sad about trying to justify one's beliefs, particularly when they touch on such a private sphere as faith, revelation and/or mystical experience. I consider myself a "Buddhist" because somewhere along the line I decided that it was a philosophy - rather than a religion - that I felt the most comfortable with: it made sense, and part of that sense was the Buddhist belief that "the way is the way" - that any - or no - religion, philosophy or even any particular effort is needed to achieve Salvation. The particular kicker is that for Buddhists of the brighter variety, we're already saved, but basically just too stupid to realize it.

At its very purest level, any religion is a marvellous and shining thing. For that matter, so is a flower or Ford Edsel, but unlike religion, they just won't go the distance. Those touched by this understanding are forever transformed - in the best possible way - even if the remainder of their lives may be as ordinary as anyone else's.

Illumination is not like winning at one of the million-dollar Vegas slots: it's all about getting back to work and doing the best you can for yourself and others (the same, really) in this shitty/perfect sphere of reality that we inhabit - while trying not to totally forget that ultimate moment of enlightenment that briefly flashed through your besotted neurons.

TeeJay should have nothing to justify: from what he's said - despite being drawn into impossible discussions of the semantics and logic of his choices - he's on the right road: the one he's chosen. For reasons that no one will ever know - and which should never have to be explained - it happens to be called Islam.

Again, and from what he's said, I have no doubt that his experience was life-changing, life-affirming, powerful and authentic. Experiences such as that - if I may be presumptuous enough to assume that that was what he was trying to convey - are autonomous and sufficent unto themselves. They make life worth living, and are the diametrical opposite of the death-cults that any religious or political system can be turned into.

Every cycle of history brings its high tide of fanatics, psychopaths and assorted true believers whose ideas of faith and belief are ultimately destructive: by its fruits shall ye know the tree.

Personally, and judging from what he's said and what he's attempting to accomplish, I'd rather have Teejay in my corner in my hour of need - and probably during much less dramatic moments as well - than many of the people who are trying to question his faith in himself and the path he's chosen.

Thanks, I truly appreciate that

95% of acts of terrorism, the greatest number of murders, human suffering, degradation, torture, and execution of women are done in the name of Islam. Fu*k those insane, deluded co*ksu*kers and may they burn in hell. Twice. The majority of the suffering in the world today falls directly into the arms of islamic fundamentalists who could give a spit about the rights and beliefs of anyone else. These horrible excuses for human beings are bringing down our world to the level of the dark ages .What is good and decent in the world is constantly under attack by these sick and deluded whack jobs and it is the responsibility of other members of Islam to root them out, ostrasize and punish them rather than be silent, and pretend that their religion is under attack, and lash out at those who are rightfully outraged by the actions of these fly face mutants. No one in their right mind would even think of demanding a middle age teacher be exectuted if she named a teddy bear 'God' or 'Jesus Christ'.

Another comment proving once more why people should not judge a group by the actions of a minority within the group.

95% of acts of terrorism, the greatest number of murders, human suffering, degradation, torture, and execution of women are done in the name of Islam. Fu*k those insane, deluded co*ksu*kers and may they burn in hell. Twice.

Absolutely so. Of course, 95% of the Muslims in the world, are not extremists. With between 1.5 and 1.8billionMuslims worldwide, the few who do commit heinous acts probably does not even equate to 1%...

Is this the 2500 year old TeeJay again, still got your head buried in the sand letting it all happen, turning a blind eye, maybe they should have silenced the bear.

Contribute something worthwhile to the debate, and you'll get a worthwhile answer.

Edited December 2, 2007 by TeeJay

[baglc1]

I could, but I think they'd have more impact coming from you personally

Of course. [Edit to clarify] and by that I mean I agree with Sharia law as specified in the Holy Qur'an, not Sharia law as influenced by the hadiths of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. I would not be a Muslim if I did not agree to submit to all aspects of Allah's will. I never said that I did not agree with Sharia law. I said that I do not agree with the way this person has been treated, because the complaints against her were motivated by spite and personal malice, not legitimate complaint. As I said before, any government which acts in such away has moved away from the principles of Islam. True Sharia Law gives the accused the right to defend themselves and be fairly judged. It is not simply a harsh system of pre-determined punishments where the accused is automatically considered guilty.

Keep telling yourself that

Dani, obviously you do need to be educated about Islam, as you clearly do not understand the guidelines on what is halal.

I don't care how many Muslim friends you had as a child, have you ever personally fully read the Holy Qur'an?

If, as you say, they 'don't care too much' for the religion, and eat pork, then they should not call themselves Muslims.

This has nothing to do with 9-11, it is an entirely different issue. With regards 9-11, that, and other acts like it, are NOT in anyway sanctioned or condoned by the Holy Qur'an, infact, they are utterly condemned as 'exceeding the bounds' (as Allah does not love those who exceed the bounds) The Holy Qur'an also forbidsonefrom 'throwing onesself into destruction'. It specifically forbids suicide. The beliefs held by such extremists are perversions of Islam, incomplete pieces of scripture taken entirely out of context, and which, when put in context, do not suggest the violent actions extremists believe that they do.

This is the whole point of extremists: The do not think in such terms. There are passages in the Holy Qur'an which say that a person should not follow the 'beliefs of their fathers' if they (their beliefs) were inconsistent with Islam. These are impressionable people who have been maniplulated into following a corruption of Islam, which is why they would indeed have no problem with blowing themselves, and others up, despite specific instruction not to do so, because they are choosing to ignore those pieces of text.

Indeed it is a valid question. One piece the Holy Qur'an states:

A clear example that people sometimes have to do things they do not like.

However, this passage is preceded (so must be balanced by, and considered with)

As mentioned previously, to fight against people who do not fight with you, is exceeding the bounds, as is doing so in a way which is forbidden.

This is the point I was trying to make about fragments of scripture being taken out of context, and then used to manipulate impressionable people into a course of action which is criticized and forbidden by the rest of the Holy Qur'an.

Correction: EXTREMIST Muslims threatened to cut off his head.

Compared to between 1.1 billion and 1.8 billion followers worldwide, yes.

Whatever visualizations make it easier Same point as above though. 5-10 Klan members do not represent the majority opinion of the Aryan race. A few thousand extremist Muslims (living in a country which has moved away from the true principles of Islam (as can be confirmed by actually reading the Holy Qur'an)) do not represent the majority opinion of all Muslims world-wide.

Yes, actions speak louder than words, but don't make the mistake of judging a group by the actions of a minority.

Except for one crucial factor:

A small distinction, but, it makes a whole lot of difference.

Thanks, I truly appreciate that

Another comment proving once more why people should not judge a group by the actions of a minority within the group.

Absolutely so. Of course, 95% of the Muslims in the world, are not extremists. With between 1.5 and 1.8billionMuslims worldwide, the few who do commit heinous acts probably does not even equate to 1%...

Contribute something worthwhile to the debate, and you'll get a worthwhile answer.

That 1% ( minority you say ) of extremists you talk about must all be in Sudan then.

[TeeJay]

That 1% ( minority you say ) of extremists you talk about must all be in Sudan then.

You really have no clue what you are talking about, or grasp of the concept of 'extremist minority', have you. Try reading this post, you might find it informative.

I really do not think we should simplify that complex topic this way.

To understand and solve the issue between the west and the middle east will be the main task of foreign affairs during the next century in my opinion.

And it won't be answered by dropping a bomb, that for sure. The arrabic world was the leading culture 800-1100 years ago, they build hospitals and knew how to take out an apendix while in europe the only way known to heal people was to venesect until the patient was cured to death. Opening a human body was blasphemy in the christian world. They also had the leading educational system, in fact, there was no system in europe at all. That was when the popes and the european gentry decided to invade them and called out the crusades.

Today the sides have significantly changed, it is popular for the arabic elite to send their kids in the west for a better education. The Saudis for example have a healthcare system which sends them to Germany or the USA for health care.

They drive foreign cars and hire western engineers. Remember we are regarding their upper class. In the last centuries, islamic south african countrys have always been the loser. They are often the ressource-richest but the poorest at the same time. A large company in the west has usually a better national product than one of these countries. They see our wealth and sense their lack for something they can be proud of.

If we regard now on how these countries get their income, we'll see that it is parted in export of goods such as oil, coffee, comestible goods, tobacco and foreign aid. The foreign aid is usually taken by warlords or government. The export goods that reach the EU or the States are put under very high taxes to protect our own agriculture.

In most countries, the main part of the population suffers from starving, they're not able to read or write. They are informed by their Imams during devine service. These guys are pretty much in charge usually, sometimes they're just warlords with a small militia... They pretend to be wise and strictly religious, but in fact they are only telling their way of view to keep the status quo. They make sure that everyone in their community gets to know that we in the western world might have the wealth, but they have the only true religion. Polemic at its best. Lets call them whitebeards.

It is a very old way to stay in charge by installing an enemy the people can focus on. By the way, it is the same "we against them" feeling that appears here, too. Just think of "coalition of the willing", "axis of evil" and other populistic frases. This sort of foreign politic adds fuel to the fire.

This mixture of poverty, bad (if none) education and the contrast to the wealthy west creates a very effective breeding ground for fanatics. In my opinion it is no wonder we can see the mob raving around everytime someone "hurts" their religious feelings - because they are told to feel hurt.

It seems ironically only at first sight , that of all things a teacher who tried to educate these people gets in the line of their fire. But it is in the interest of those white beards in charge to keep the population uneducated. The Taliban were top-notch in that, really.

But this all has nothing to do with the Islam as a religion at all, but with the hurt feeling of inferiority combined with an attitude of "me and my rifle will defend this culture" insinuated by whitebearded old men!

I gotta admit, my post became just as simplyfied, but you could write books on this topic without even scratching the surface of this complexity of problems.

@Jon Fort - What part of my comment (there was rather a lot of it) did you disagree with? I'd be willing to discuss any aspects of it you might have disagreed with

[Pugwash]

95% of acts of terrorism, the greatest number of murders, human suffering, degradation, torture, and execution of women are done in the name of Islam.

Now that's a made up figure if ever I've heard one. :-)

If you look at real terrorism figures, you'll find that in the recent decades, most terrorist acts were done by separatists or Christians. Look at the Spanish, Irish and German terrorists for examples of non-islamic terror.

If you want to get really deep into the figures, you should check which terrorist organisations were funded by the US directly or by US citizens.

Don't just make crap up. It doesn't help your argument.

Ps. Islam hasn't caught up to Christianity in murders, human suffering, degradation, torture, and execution of women by a long shot.

[TeeJay]

If you want to get really deep into the figures, you should check which terrorist organisations were funded by the US directly or by US citizens.

For example, Operation Cyclone.

[baglc1]

You really have no clue what you are talking about, or grasp of the concept of 'extremist minority', have you. Try reading this post, you might find it informative.

@Jon Fort - What part of my comment (there was rather a lot of it) did you disagree with? I'd be willing to discuss any aspects of it you might have disagreed with

Who are all those friendly people on Dani's post (page 1) waving plastic swords and asking for this 56 year old (not 2056 year old) woman to be freed, Here's me thinking they were going to watch a Mohamhad Ali boxing match, not looking for some cuddly bear.

[TeeJay]

Who are all those friendly people on Dani's post (page 1) waving plastic swords and asking for this 56 year old (not 2056 year old) woman to be freed, Here's me thinking they were going to watch a Mohamhad Ali boxing match, not looking for some cuddly bear.

Why the references of 2000? Islam is not 2000 years old. Previous posts by both myself and others (which I have pointed out to you) explain the behaviour of those in Sudan, as well as hopefully enlighten about Islam. You clearly have no interest in discussing this topic reasonably, therefore, I have nothing further to say to you. Please stop trolling the forum.

[Pugwash]

Why the references of 2000? Islam is not 2000 years old.

Clearly. It's going through the same growing pains that Christianity did in their Medieval period, and we know how enlightened they were then.

[baglc1]

Why the references of 2000? Islam is not 2000 years old. Previous posts by both myself and others (which I have pointed out to you) explain the behaviour of those in Sudan, as well as hopefully enlighten about Islam. You clearly have no interest in discussing this topic reasonably, therefore, I have nothing further to say to you. Please stop trolling the forum.

OK, had a little dig, but what next Mohamhed the red nose reindeer, Pope John Paul the penguin vi. Come on. ITS A STUFFED BEAR.

[ryyannon]

OK, had a little dig, but what next Mohamhed the red nose reindeer, Pope John Paul the penguin vi. Come on. ITS A STUFFED BEAR.

Look, the Moe-Bear incident is not TeeJay's fault.

It's not even connected to his conception of Islam.

Get it?

[TeeJay]

Clearly. It's going through the same growing pains that Christianity did in their Medieval period, and we know how enlightened they were then.

And the key problem, (In both instances) is as highlighted in SeaDweller's above post, nothing whatsoever to do with the religion itself, but the little tin-pot dictators using a corrupted version of teachings to keep themselves in power. Christianity (in any form) has virtually nothing to do with the message that Jesus gave. Jesus was a prophet. He did not want people to worship him, he wanted them to follow the message he had to pass on, as was the case with Moses. People do not worship Moses, nor (and they are not supposed to) the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

The problem is not 'the message', it is 'the organization' within which it is being presented (and influenced by cultural and social attitudes of the regions).

I think I've said just about all I need, or am prepared to on this issue, so will leave things with this quotation from the Holy Qur'an:

Unbelievers

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!

[109.2] I worship not that which ye worship,

[109.3] And ye do not worship that which I worship;

[109.4] I shall never worship that which ye worship,

[109.5] Neither will ye worship that which I worship;

[109.6] To you be your religion; To me my religion.

Edited December 2, 2007 by TeeJay

[Pugwash]

I think I've said just about all I need, or am prepared to on this issue, so will leave things with this quotation from the Holy Qur'an:

Quotation? Transliteration, more like. It's a translation of a transcription.