ID Cards

[DemonSlayer]

The English government want to introduce ID cards as a means to combat terrorism, stamp down on illegal immigrants, organized crime rings and stop identity theft amongst other things. However there are some issues regarding the effectiveness of these ID cards, and if they really are the answer to some of the problems faced by society.

Recent events have shown very clearly how concerned the government is to keep our personal details secure. MoD computers being stolen and data discs being missing/stolen from the post, indicates that they don't take it very seriously at all. If these cards could somehow be copied, then they will be targeted by the very terrorists and criminals they are supposed to stop, in the hopes of creating false identities.

What do you guys think? Do you think that ID cards can be a useful method to combat crime and terrorism and other issues such as illegal immigration?

[Victoria]

Against.

Strongly strongly against.

And I'm not even a Losertarian either.

[TeeJay]

I don't have any problem with carrying ID or an ID Card, afterall, I already (voluntarily) wear a Canadian Dog-tag with biographical and contact information, although of course, there is a difference between choosing to do something, and having a government insist upon it... However, I do object to the government scheme, for several reasons:

- If it is a requirement that everyone have a card, then periodic issues should be free (like an NI Card) with charges only being made for replacements in the event of loss or damage.

- Owning an ID card should not be a criteria for passport application.

- The different types of information should not be centrally stored. The government has only just recently proved it incapable

of dealing with such information in a secure manner, so putting all relevent information together in one storage facility, is just asking for trouble.

[DemonSlayer]

Also, we have to consider that though the present government's reasons behind such ID cards might be 'pure', we have no idea what future governments will be like and how they might use this kind of sensitive information.

Can they really be used to combat terrorism? Well considering that 3 of the bombers of 07/2005 were born and bred in Yorkshire, this wouldn't seem to be the case all the time.

[HauteHippie]

The bad guys know how to make fake IDs. I haven't yet heard of any viable substitute for profiling.

[Victoria]

Can they really be used to combat terrorism? Well considering that 3 of the bombers of 07/2005 were born and bred in Yorkshire, this wouldn't seem to be the case all the time.

As you've read, I am VERY strongly against national ID cards.

But I am also very leery of people who are against them because of conspiracy theories, such as "The UN will take over the world!!", "It's the New World Order!!", "It's McChimpyHalliburton/Gordon Brownose trying to take away our tinfoil hats!!", etc.

These people are beyond Luddites. They are permanently brain fried.

If such countries as Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Chile and others can have national ID cards going on 70 years now, without messing it up, then I daresay First World countries like the UK and the US can too.

It's just that Anglo-Saxon cultures don't have that tradition.

Whenever I mention my concerns to my German relatives, they smile somewhat piteously at me, and tut-tut my fears -- they've had IDs since Bismarck. You can't let a flat, open a bank account, or register with the Po-Po (if you're a foreigner) if you don't have your papers in order in Germany.

And they have the most efficient bureaucracy in the EU (which isn't saying much, but still). So no, at least with me, it's not fears someone EVIL, ooh scary music, will use my info to my detriment now or in the future.

They can do that right well enough with my US driving license or Social Security card.

I just don't like nationalised anything.

[jkerouac]

If such countries as Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Chile and others can have national ID cards going on 70 years now, without messing it up, then I daresay First World countries like the UK and the US can too.

I guess you have to define "messing it up."

I am German as well, and one of the stereotypical scene of WWII movies is where the police verify that the hero has the "proper" papers. Of course the bad guys can create reasonable counterfeits, but identity technologies are becoming increasingly sophisticated and harder to replicate. So do we (the good, honest folk) fear the bad guys who can replicate these creds, or the government that can use them for good or not so good purposes?

I trust the technology more than the government... or the government employees used to implement the technology.

Would it help prevent some incidents of terrorism or other crimes? Possibly, or even probably.

Does it translate into less public trust? Very definitely. The US is already a less desirable vacation destination because of the tightened immigration checks at airports, ports, and border crossings. I live just a few hours from the Canadian border, and we (and our Canadian neighbors) are very aware that it has become more of a hassle to cross the border. You may look like us, talk like us, and act like us in every way, but that doesn't mean we have to trust you.

Compare that to Europe where borders between EU countries have melted.

Ironically, as an American the new border restrictions make me feel less rather than more safe -- and I consider myself more wordly and cosmopolitan than most of my neighbors.

[Victoria]

Ironically, as an American the new border restrictions make me feel less rather than more safe -- and I consider myself more wordly and cosmopolitan than most of my neighbors.

That's just because it's a new state-of-affairs, Jack.

The feeling will dissipate in time, at least with reasonable people.

It was HIGH TIME the US tightened its borders, and abolished the INS -- a den of thieves if ever I saw one. Why, only last night I was telling my boyfriend that twice I paid for my green card to arrive, and it never did. It was supposed to come from Arlington, Texas. Nada.

Long after I had become a naturalised citizen, I was told that the Arlington site which sends you the green cards is rife with corruption. Potentially there is an illegal Mexican woman going around with my frikkin' green card, calling herself by my name! She better not be wearing a Casio!

I am laughing as I typed that, but it's not funny...

But that there should be SOME control, of course.

In the election thread, I admitted that I used to be a Clerk of a polling station here in South Florida (no longer, I "retired"). Do you know that because there is no national ID, we Florida pollworkers could accept ANYTHING as a form of ID?

This included a Costco card. A COSTCO CARD. In the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I ask you.

[Pugwash]

Hugely against, mainly because the biometric data will be stored by the IT company with the lowest tender, and with the amount of recent data loss screw-ups in the UK, there is no way they can be trusted.

Two points, if my data gets compromised, do I need to grow new eyeballs? And if my ID is stolen, how on earth can I prove who I am? Can you imagine how difficult it will be to prove you are a victim of identity theft (aka common fraud) when the ID cards are supposed to be foolproof?

If you think about it, Live Free Or Die Hard (Die Hard 4.0) is based on the premise that the US government decided to store everything in one place. We don't have a John McClane in the UK, so I'd rather we didn't do that. Yippee ki yay.

[Victoria]

Hugely against, mainly because the biometric data will be stored by the IT company with the lowest tender, and with the amount of recent data loss screw-ups in the UK, there is no way they can be trusted.

In fact, this is one of the main obstacles of having anything approaching socialised health care in the US: because over 300 million people would have to be registered in this massive bureaucracy, with IDs being issued. Biometric info would surely have to be included.

Conspiracy theorists ABOUND in this topic, and they are both of the Left and Right.

FWIW, Finland has culled biometric information of their citizens since the mid-1970s (they started by collecting footprints of newborns, and have since gotten the DNA of every Finnish citizen born there).

I don't see them having a hissy fit about it, nor distrusting their government and corporations like Nokia.

But much of this has to do trusting your own.

Social scientists point to the fact that they are a homogenous society (coincidentally like Britain was in the 1940s...), and homogeneous peoples are more likely to be a trusting society than "multi-cultural" societies.

[Pugwash]

FWIW, Finland has culled biometric information of their citizens since the mid-1970s (they started by collecting footprints of newborns, and have since gotten the DNA of every Finnish citizen born there).

Do they have to carry this information and present it to the police when asked?

[Pugwash]

In fact, this is one of the main obstacles of having anything approaching socialised health care in the US: because over 300 million people would have to be registered in this massive bureaucracy, with IDs being issued. Biometric info would surely have to be included.

The point about Socialised Medicine is you don't need 300,000,000 people registered. We don't have it in the UK and if you turn up at hospital, you don't need ID because everyone gets free service. You're assumed to be eligible, by default, if you turn up.

[Victoria]

Do they have to carry this information and present it to the police when asked?

Like most biometric information used presently by governments, it is stored for record-keeping purposes only.

I wish I still frequented a forum where I had made a lot of Finnish friends. I could ask them about this LIKE THAT. Unfortunately, I can only Wiki the info now:

"Finland

In Finland, any citizen can get an identification card (henkil

[Pugwash]

Please tell me this isn't the case now with the NHS. I emigrated in 1998 and am out of the loop.

Last time I went to hospital, I didn't take any ID. In fact, since I returned from France, I've not needed to use any ID to get free health or dental care.

[Victoria]

Last time I went to hospital, I didn't take any ID. In fact, since I returned from France, I've not needed to use any ID to get free health or dental care.

Ah, I had been told that had changed in England. Oh wait, you live in Scotland -- no IDs are needed there, still, I believe?

That's why a recent story in the local paper had mentioned a Haitian taking the first flight to Prestwick, deplaning, and getting a kidney transplant for free in Glasgow.

There would be charter medical flights to the US if we had socialised health care with no IDs. Nightmare.

EDIT: Hmm, I inadvertently answered your followup below, by this Haitian lady anecdote.

"The point about Socialised Medicine is you don't need 300,000,000 people registered. We don't have it in the UK and if you turn up at hospital, you don't need ID because everyone gets free service. You're assumed to be eligible, by default, if you turn up."

[Pugwash]

Ah, I had been told that had changed in England. Oh wait, you live in Scotland -- no IDs are needed there, still, I believe?

The UK doesn't have ID cards yet. The law in England and Scotland is the same.

[Victoria]

The UK doesn't have ID cards yet. The law in England and Scotland is the same.

No, I realise that.

But I meant that one has to present something now stating you are registered with the National Health, in England, before being seen each time. But that's still not the case in Scotland. True or false?

In my day, you went to the local clinic/surgery* and got a ticket. When your number was called, you were seen by the GP. End of.

*For the benefit of North Americans, who think a surgery stands only for an operation.

[Pugwash]

But I meant that one has to present something now stating you are registered with the National Health, in England, before being seen each time. But that's still not the case in Scotland. True or false?

I can only assume it's false. I'll defer to the English residents, however.

[b16a2]

I think the horse has already bolted. Immigration problems have been at the forefront of this nation for years. ID cards will not solve anything, I fear thatit is a remedy to something that is unfixable.

In light of the current mishaps with regards to losing important data, the nations distrust in a move to integrate ID cards in to our society is well founded.

I for one would not like to have all of my personal data stored on a card and computer database. Crackers these days are very clever, and the possibility of them fraudulently obtaining and using this data is a real one.

Am I for the ID cards?

You might be surprised after reading that to hear that I AM.

However, I think that they should only be issued to people who are form outside the state, and not as a tester to implement them to every national in the future. Then again, it is not the people that enter legally into our country that is the problem. It is the ones that enter and then disappear. I fear that even if the cards are issued, people will still find a way to enter into this country and effectively disappear. ID cards will be useless against this kind of entry.

[Pugwash]

The English government want to introduce ID cards as a means to combat terrorism, stamp down on illegal immigrants, organized crime rings and stop identity theft amongst other things.

Just to clarify, this previous sentence is only partially correct. It is the current UK (not English) Government that is pushing for ID cards. The latest is that they've been pushed back to 2112, the year of the London Olympics.

[Victoria]

You might be surprised after reading that to hear that I AM.

Finally, we have a "yes"!

Don't get me wrong, I still don't care for IDs, to put it mildly; but I think it's crucial to have all sides of the argument represented.

However, I think that they should only be issued to people who are form outside the state, and not as a tester to implement them to every national in the future. Then again, it is not the people that enter legally into our country that is the problem. It is the ones that enter and then disappear. I fear that even if the cards are issued, people will still find a way to enter into this country and effectively disappear. ID cards will be useless against this kind of entry.

Normally, b16a2, I have an allergy to immigration talk. I find either the nationalist crazies come out, or those who would open their country to all and sundry, do. Both are extremely antipathic to me.

But I am very against IDs for the express use of controlling immigration.

However, the issue of ILLEGAL immigration gets confused with being anti-immigrant, per se.

Recently, when Jeb Bush was governor of Florida, he spearheaded a law which made it impossible to get a driving license without showing proof of residency and a Social Security card. Before that, believe or not, anyone coming from an airplane could present themselves at the DMV, and get a Florida driver's license.

If you could drive a car, you got a license. The license itself is a springboard to getting a Social Security card, opening a bank account, getting a voter's registration card (!), etc. etc. A Catch-22 if ever there was one.

The week before this was to take into effect, you couldn't get NEAR a DMV site. All the illegals were making sure they got a license. I queried my then boyfriend (a lawyer) asking why didn't INS just station themselves in those DMVs, asking for Green Cards (which we legal immigrants are supposed to carry), and cart away those who were illegal.

No, because that's entrapment and racial profiling, I was told.

These are the kinds of things that were LONG overdue about being tightened up, post 9/11.

There is no need for national IDs if you pass the same law as was passed by Governor Bush. A STATE law, I hasten to add. It should be a State by State basis, not a federal one.

[narikaa]

Its not about Terrorism

Organised crime

or any such 'fringe' issues

its about

CONTROL IN GENERAL

But scream n shout all you like, the legislation obsessed UK general public will swallow it like leaping fish (if a national road safety day was declared, with docu evidence - supported by game shows, talent contests and TV chefs and other such luminaries - proclaiming the vast road safety benefits of pedestrians wearing traffic cones on their heads.....I am sure on the day the daft b####rds would).

.

[Pugwash]

Its not about Terrorism

Organised crime

or any such 'fringe' issues

its about

CONTROL IN GENERAL

Spain has ID cards. They still had the Madrid bombing and it doesn't even help against Basque separatists.

[piratedzeus]

Eu report about terrorism 2006 found 2 deaths caused by islamistic terror.

In germany we sent more people than that to some CIA stations in Egypt / afghanistan for waterboarding or whatever...

[narikaa]

Spain has ID cards. They still had the Madrid bombing and it doesn't even help against Basque separatists.

Exactly my point (and I have it on good authority theres a little bit of organised crime in Spain too)

But

It does put a handle on every Joe Shmoe that lives there.

& all the 'I do no wrong so I dont mind' appologists miss the point that with biometric chips and passive readers (a la new UK passports) its no longer the friendly policeman politely asking to peruse the well thumbed card from your wallet......the potential for invasive abuse/deminishment of basic freedoms is astronomical.