Pam 251/250 issues...

[lello]

I know this is not a present subject matter, as this rep was out a while a go, but I hope some of you is still interested about it.

Useless to spend words about how rep makers can be so obstinate and perseverant in making such silly flaws.

They keep correcting some and making wrong something else.

My personal opinion is that they do it on purpose, just to keep for them selves the chance to make an upgraded model later on..., but this is just my 2 cents.

Breaking a rule I imposed to my self, this time i could also be willing to spend lots of $ in a rep with 7753 mov.

But how can we do that with such evident flaws?

Paradoxically, the 7750 version has less flaws than the 7753, although the recessed date makes it recognizable right away.

To make a very good rep of this model, we would need to re print the dial completely, on 7753 - 250 and replace dots on 7753 - 251 (which I'm not sure if it's possible, I have to ask)

This is one of my favorite watches in the whole panorama and I would really like to have it.

Right now I'm very unsure of what to do.

As some of you might know, I'm trying to make some dials totally re printed.

I don't want to spend more than these words about it, because if the first two dials (which I should receive next week), won't come out very well done, all will be useless then...

In the meanwhile, I would like to know your opinion on this 250/251 issue.

Here you can see some pictures with rep vs gen.

Any comment will be appreciated!

Edited January 24, 2008 by lello

[Stephane]

This is one of my favorite watches in the whole panorama and I would really like to have it.

Right now I'm very unsure of what to do.

Same here.

It's really annoying.

What about a black 7750 with a 7753 mvt and a 7753 bezel ?

[lello]

Same here.

It's really annoying.

What about a black 7750 with a 7753 mvt and a 7753 bezel ?

This was my first intention.

Actually I would have preferred doing it on 251, replacing the dial on the 7753, with the one of 7750, and bezel or case as well.

But the thing is that 7753 and 7750 dials are different and not interchangeable.

I would prefer 251, because I already have the 196 (I'm re printing the dial of it) and also because I'm still missing a white dial watch.

188 is too similar to my 196 and also, the black numerals make too much contrast, for my taste.

Also, the recessed dials on 250/251, makes the whole dial much richer.

[Watchmeister]

The whole bezel issue on the 251 kept me away from it as well. You can fix it by swapping the part from the Asian 7750. But, IMHO, the bigger issue is the dial itself. The metal surrounded hour markers always look way off on reps of PAM's which have them. Either the overall marker size is wrong or the metal bezel around the lume is too thick or too thin depending on the rep. For that reason I have always stayed away from the 251 and submersibles that have the metal surround on the hour marker.

[fishgodeep]

In for the 250/236 dial like a rat up a drainpipe....:-)

Cheers

FGD

[Watchmeister]

I also forgot to add that the other reason why I avoid the 250/251's is they changed over the crown guard to a pseudo-historic (with lever centered on the vertical plane).

[jclockwork]

This was my first intention.

Actually I would have preferred doing it on 251, replacing the dial on the 7753, with the one of 7750, and bezel or case as well.

But the thing is that 7753 and 7750 dials are different and not interchangeable.

I would prefer 251, because I already have the 196 (I'm re printing the dial of it) and also because I'm still missing a white dial watch.

188 is too similar to my 196 and also, the black numerals make too much contrast, for my taste.

Also, the recessed dials on 250/251, makes the whole dial much richer.

Totally reprinted PAM 196 dial - from scratch or a modified bulk rep. dial?

Anyhow, if it's better than any of the rep. dials on the market, then have one made for me too...

rgds,

JCW

[sanro]

It's funny... I just got my 7753 PAM251 and I thought the bezel was correct since panerai.com shows the 251 as "Tachimetre"... But reading this thread and others, and checking some second-hand watches in the web it looks like "Tachimeter" is the correct bezel... WTF then with the official Panerai website?!!

Having spent so much $$$ in my 251 I doubt i would spend it again for a more perfect version, but you guys still have my moral support!!

Good luck, Lello. And thanks...

[lello]

I made a careful analysis studying the dials pics of gen, rep 7753 and rep 7750 of this Pam 251.

Pics have been resized to match as better as possible one over the other one.

They don't line up 100% all over the places, because of some distortion due to the slight different angle of shots.

But I believe that the main subjects of this analysis, as indices dots and main types, are quite right in proportions, so it is somehow possible to make a trustful comparison.

If you like to try, just download (drag and drop) these three images and put them in one single Photoshop psd file and play with the three layers to see the differences.

From this study, I traced and figured out the size of diameter of the indices dots on each dial, because this is probably the main flaw of these rep dials, especially on 7753.

The results I came up with, are:

GEN = 2,1mm

7753 REP = 2,4mm

7750 REP = 1,9mm

I did that, because speaking with my printer, he told me he has in stock some spare dots like these ones and so, I needed to communicate him the precise size, to check if he's got the right replacement.

If so, we would be able to upgrade the dials, replacing the dots with correct ones.

Other considerations regarding other elements are:

- Main type on 7750 rep, look too small, while on 7753 rep, it is quire right in proportions, just very slightly too high.

- Numbers 20 and 10 on minute subdial, on 7750 rep are too small.

- Wouldn't need to mention the T swiss made T on 7750 rep.

- There are also other minor tiny differences, but they are unimportant to me.

Minutes hand on reps is around 1mm too long.

This is what I managed to do with these pics I found around.

If anybody of you would have further informations, to contribute to this thread, it would be great.

Gen:

Rep 7753:

Rep 7750:

[Watchmeister]

Lello-

Great analysis. If he can get those dots it would make the rep much better.

[scoobs1971]

@Lello: so did you get any further on this project?

Having seen the 250 gen in the flesh I've noticed that the subdials are far more recessed than on the rep. The 7750 rep is better in this respect than the 7753, but still looks like it's not really recessed but just a different part.

[capice]

interesting subject lello

[Jurgenk]

Lello,

This was a very interesting topic for me as well, esp. since I have had some travails with the 7750, which got much better after your help (see below) but the recessed date was still a nuisance.

I'm wondering if you had any luck with your printing of the 250 dial? It is much too bad that the a7750b 250 dial does not fit upon the 7753 movement.

After careful study of the gen 250, I have basically concluded that the 7753 bezel, 7750 case and caseback, 7750 dial, and your datewheel would make for a watch that is functionally and cosmetically indistinguishable from the gen.

This situation has been so frustrating that I have contemplated just getting te 250 at the dealer. But I just can't get myself to do it because I feel that at $8000 it is far too overpriced, and the $8750 that they will be asking or so after the price increase is just immoral.

I rue the day that I had an opportunity to pick one of these up at $6500 just 2 years ago.

It is a beautiful watch, but the gen does not feel better made than the a7750b, strangely. If not for the sunken date this watch would be also very hard to distinguish, apart from the quickset date functionality and the slightly different bezel.

I cannot justify the $$$ for the gen when 7753 watches from other marques are so much cheaper. For that kind of money I'd like to have an in house movement.

A final note: Is it quite impossible to retrofit the 7750 dial onto a 7753 movement? Are the casback posts incompatible, or are the subdials entirely different in spacing, or is the date aperture off alignment... Or all of the above? The quality of the 7753 rep dial leaves much to be desired, I can't spend the $$$ on the 7753 without some dial upgrade option.

[ta8088]

I can't remember if it the subdial alignment or the dw placement but it's one of those two things that prevents the different dials from working on the different mvts. There are some others here that know these far better than me and hopefully can provide a better answer.

[hackR]

@Kruzer --> i'm learning about PAMs...can you explain and/or illustrate with pictures what the difference is in crown guards are for the 250/251s - what is meant by "pseudo-historic" and what is considered normal?...what does the gen have?...thx...R

I also forgot to add that the other reason why I avoid the 250/251's is they changed over the crown guard to a pseudo-historic (with lever centered on the vertical plane).