Why handwinding an Automatic movement is bad.

[Shundi]

@ The Zigmeister

Wow, you are correct. I've never been big into RWI but that reading that thread is like watching 5 year olds shout at one another on the playground. Jealousy is an ugly mistress...

[scoobs1971]

Thanks The Zigmeister! Sometimes a picture says more than a thousands words.......

[onzenuub]

Well, I just signed on to RWI and had a read of the post...sigh...why even bother with that place.

Now I know why I never wanted or will bother to post on that board.

Can you do me a favor please, and edit and delete my post from RWI, I thought it would prove somewhat useful, but when I see Phil (Klink) (who I have known for over 4 years), up to his old tricks, and Watchbuff up to his, I really have no interest in offering anything to these people.

So if you can simply edit and delete my post, I would appreciate it.

These people don't like me, and that's perfectly fine by me, I don't like them either. If the post was credited to anyone but me, it would not get any of the responses from these folks, you should have said RBJ was the author...

Thank you.

RG

EDIT to add.

On RWG we don't always agree, and that is normal and needed. But the difference between RWG and what I have read on RWI is simple, we are like adults here (most of the time, me included) and discus things in detail for everyone's benefit, but RWI seems to have a childish attitude about it, no doubt mainly due to the fact I wrote the topic. Best to leave them to their own experts like RBJ and Watchbuff...

Post in RWI deleted, other boards only positiv in the reactions.

[RWG Technical]

Post in RWI deleted, other boards only positiv in the reactions.

Wonderful thank you.

It's not the fact it was negative, it was what was said and by who.

Our discussion here is not a positive, meaning we don't all agree on everything, but at least we are discussing and sharing our different points of view, and expertise, and experience, which helps everyone who reads the post.

And that is what a forum should be about.

@repaustria

I missed the earlier comment on the tilting pinion. Interesting facts, maybe one day I'll have to buy a machine that does the amplitude as well, I just have a hard time letting go of the old Vibrograph, the "toc toc toc" of the hammer marking the paper always brings me back to my days sitting with my late uncle...memories take priority over certain things sometimes...

Although I have to say I can tell quite good with my eyes the aproximate amplitude.

RG

[Watchmeister]

Fabulous post. I don't know how I missed this one and I paid the price. Just last night I overwound my 243 rep and now it doesn't work. Crap!

Ziggy-

This one will be heading over to you at some point.

[RWG Technical]

Fabulous post. I don't know how I missed this one and I paid the price. Just last night I overwound my 243 rep and now it doesn't work. Crap!

Ziggy-

This one will be heading over to you at some point.

With good customers like you, I'll never want for new ones...

@ repaustria

Reports of bad and poor microphones is what has prevented me from moving beyond the Vibrograph. I guess someone has finally done both, good microphone, and using a PC based program that shows everything...

RG

[Bruce]

Thanks for the post RG. I had no idea, but see the issue now. The pictures make all the difference. Before reading this post, I posted a question on a problem I'm having with an automatic that doesn't autowind much or at all. I hope I didn't cause the problem myself.

[JuiceMaker]

thanks The Zigmeister for another very important information on A7750...

I've always known that this forum is the BEST out of all the forums on the web, no doubt about it...

great members who are mature enough to "agree to disagree" on certain topics.

[phaedo]

Reading the comments over at RWI because of where the info came from, hiw idiotic of them. Basically now telling the members there to make sure they wind their auto's just for spite! Lucky a lot of the members are on both boards and will realize what is going on.

Klinks ramblings - always hard to understand - does he shoot up before he posts I wonder?

[bbell6]

This may be a dumb question, but why are the automatics so much more fragile than the handwinds? I can understand that the larger pocket watch style movements (due to their size) might be more durable, but I assume there must be something different in the design that is causing the addtional wear on the automatics. Could someone elaborate?

[hiker01]

Thanks The Zigmeister! Now I'm more Gentle with my Chronos now! The Rollies seems to take it with no problems......I think they have a clutch on them or something....I've been winding my Yathy 50 times at one time koz I was regulating it and let it set for a day and it seems to take it...

This is probably true with non-7750 automatics.....please someone correct me on this if I'm wrong!

[-EZ-]

When I want to wear one of my dead autos, I simply hold the head and shake it for a full 30 seconds, then put it on. Haven't had a problem keeping anything from a7750's to eta 2824s to miyotas charged from there, even if I spend the whole day at a desk. So I'm just wondering....why hand wind at all?

btw I once had a salesperson at Tourneau tell me to always wind and "never shake a watch" when I tried to get the PO I was looking at to run...sometimes I wonder if they get any training at all

Edited March 1, 2008 by -EZ-

[RWG Technical]

This may be a dumb question, but why are the automatics so much more fragile than the handwinds? I can understand that the larger pocket watch style movements (due to their size) might be more durable, but I assume there must be something different in the design that is causing the addtional wear on the automatics. Could someone elaborate?

There are a few reasons why automatics are more fragile than manual wind models.

Let me try and elaborate:

1. An automatic can be bi or uni directional winding, 7750's only wind in one direction, 2836's wind in both. In each case, there is a click gear (wheel) that is simply a one way clutch self contained gear. In a 7750 which only winds one way (due to lack of space for a second click wheel) the rotor will freewheel in one direction, and wind the watch in the other direction.

When the rotor is freewheeling, the click wheel is spinning free, nothing else is turning or moving except for the click gear and the rotor.

When the rotor is winding the mainspring, the click clutch levers engage into the bottom half of the click gear, and this will cause the click gear to lock and to engage into two more reduction gears, and finally into the mainspring gear and cause it to be wound.

It takes many multiple turns of the rotor to turn the mainspring barrel one turn.

Think of the rotor as your car engine, and the transmission is the click gear and reduction gears, in first gear, rev it to 6000 RPM, and your going about 20 miles per hour.

A bi-directional arrangement work the same, only that it engages into 2 click wheels, and winds both directions so to be more efficient.

So if you reverse the power flow, and turn the crown here's what happens:

The mainspring gear turns almost 1:1 with the crown, and since the gears are now going in the reverse direction, they are spinning very fast, especially the last gear of all...you guessed it, the click gear. The design of the watch is such that handwinding will not lock the clutch levers in the click gear, they will freewheel...otherwise the rotor will spin around as you handwind. These small highly polished meatal levers (or sapphire depending on the model) are forced to slip and spin free at very high speeds, which damages them and the gear...once the damage starts, it works it's way down and eventually given enough winding, you see what I posted in the first post...missing teeth and ground down gears.

Back to the car example. Handwinding is the same as towing your car at 60 miles per hour, and dropping the clutch and engaing the engine in first gear...how fast do you think the engine will spin under those conditions, and what will happen to it?

A clean freshly oiled movement is less prone to damage, winding slowly doesn't cause as much damage, and winding only as needed reduces the chances of damage.

If you start to feel resistance, STOP winding, if your rotor is spinning along as you handwind...well you know why...

Hope this is understandable.

RG

[bbell6]

Hope this is understandable.

RG

I wouldn't want to be tested on the subject, but understand the concepts. It makes sense, and the car example helped.

Thanks,

B

[JoJo35]

Excellent post Rob. Thank you for taking the time to share this info with everyone. It appears that these tiny gears will probably wear to the point of non-function eventually no matter how careful one is; however, taking the care you described will hopefully prolong this from happening for a long long time!

There are a few reasons why automatics are more fragile than manual wind models.

Let me try and elaborate:

1. An automatic can be bi or uni directional winding, 7750's only wind in one direction, 2836's wind in both. In each case, there is a click gear (wheel) that is simply a one way clutch self contained gear. In a 7750 which only winds one way (due to lack of space for a second click wheel) the rotor will freewheel in one direction, and wind the watch in the other direction.

When the rotor is freewheeling, the click wheel is spinning free, nothing else is turning or moving except for the click gear and the rotor.

When the rotor is winding the mainspring, the click clutch levers engage into the bottom half of the click gear, and this will cause the click gear to lock and to engage into two more reduction gears, and finally into the mainspring gear and cause it to be wound.

It takes many multiple turns of the rotor to turn the mainspring barrel one turn.

Think of the rotor as your car engine, and the transmission is the click gear and reduction gears, in first gear, rev it to 6000 RPM, and your going about 20 miles per hour.

A bi-directional arrangement work the same, only that it engages into 2 click wheels, and winds both directions so to be more efficient.

So if you reverse the power flow, and turn the crown here's what happens:

The mainspring gear turns almost 1:1 with the crown, and since the gears are now going in the reverse direction, they are spinning very fast, especially the last gear of all...you guessed it, the click gear. The design of the watch is such that handwinding will not lock the clutch levers in the click gear, they will freewheel...otherwise the rotor will spin around as you handwind. These small highly polished meatal levers (or sapphire depending on the model) are forced to slip and spin free at very high speeds, which damages them and the gear...once the damage starts, it works it's way down and eventually given enough winding, you see what I posted in the first post...missing teeth and ground down gears.

Back to the car example. Handwinding is the same as towing your car at 60 miles per hour, and dropping the clutch and engaing the engine in first gear...how fast do you think the engine will spin under those conditions, and what will happen to it?

A clean freshly oiled movement is less prone to damage, winding slowly doesn't cause as much damage, and winding only as needed reduces the chances of damage.

If you start to feel resistance, STOP winding, if your rotor is spinning along as you handwind...well you know why...

Hope this is understandable.

RG

[Michael]

When you don't wear the watch for a couple days what do you suggest, kind of shake it then put it on and let the auto wind do its work?? Thanks!

Use a watch winder my friend.

[crwolf79]

I'm having a problem with my A7750 Tag Link Chrono, and this seemed like an OK place to post. Sorry to be a noob, but I've read all over the boards, and think I've started to narrow the problem, and I know it is related to the gear that Zig posted a picture of on page 1 (the one that he replaced, because it was stripped). I think I have a problem with the reverse wheel click... Please let me know your thoughts.

It isn't holding very good power reserve, so I popped the back open to take a look at things. Very cool how it works!

So I have an intermittent problem. It all started with the watch not holding a good power reserve, and it made a weird CLICK noise when the rotor was automatic winding... So I took it apart. When I spin the rotor CCW, I CAN see that gold gear turning (the one The Zigmeister references in page 1), and it is storing the power from the half turn of the rotor (ie, the gold gear only turns one direction, not both, like the other two that are before it).

Anyway, the problem is, IT CLICKS EVERY TIME A ROTOR MAKES A FULL ROTATION. Plus, I can see the little gold wheel jump at the sound of the click too... Any way to fix this? Is this a symptom of the bad reversing gear click. I only know what I learned on this forum, so... enough to be dangerous!

2nd question: The Zigmeister--PM me where I can send this watch to, if you are up for fixing it

3rd question: OK, I gather The Zigmeister is out for a while. Anyone else around here in the business of fixing watches? HELP!

Edited July 16, 2009 by crwolf79

[thanatophobia]

I have the same problem with my Rep Watch IWC Aquatimer.

I wish I had read this thread before I even touched the watch

@Zigmaster: Who can I send this watch to have it fixed or can I order the relevant parts to have it fixed by a local watch smith?

I appreciate any replies!!

Thanks in advance !!

[RWG Technical]

If you have stripped the gear in the first picture on the initial post, your out of luck, they are not available. The only option is to turn your auto into a handwind. Keeping it as is, will probably distrubute the metal filings throughout the movement and cause more damage.

It is very difficult to diagnose a problem without seeing a watch in person. There should be a "click" sound heard as the rotor winds the watch, the part making the noise is ironically called the "click" and in the case of a 7750 it's actually a spring. So it may be normal, but the low PR isn't normal, could be one of many problems...

PM is open, see my Sept/Oct booking post.

[Francisco]

I can mod one of that gears....

http://www.rwgforum.com/modifying-ratchet-wheel-asian-7750-t100241.html

Francisco

[thanatophobia]

If you have stripped the gear in the first picture on the initial post, your out of luck, they are not available. The only option is to turn your auto into a handwind. Keeping it as is, will probably distrubute the metal filings throughout the movement and cause more damage.

Hello Zigmeister,

thanks for the immediate answer.

What do you mean by that, I thought handwinding the watch caused the damage in the first place ?

I had the watch reviewed by a watchmaker and it looked exactly as your picture of that broken wheel.

Is there no way to get spare parts of this Asian 7750 ?

[HauteHippie]

Wow... I wish I could take back all the handwinding I've ever done!

[Francisco]

I had the watch reviewed by a watchmaker and it looked exactly as your picture of that broken wheel.

Is there no way to get spare parts of this Asian 7750 ?

http://www.rwgforum.com/modifying-ratchet-wheel-asian-7750-t100241.html

[RWG Technical]

I can mod one of that gears....

http://www.rwgforum.com/modifying-ratchet-wheel-asian-7750-t100241.html

Francisco

Me too, but it's just too expensive when all the time and parts are added up, adding another $80+ to a servicing is pushing the limits on a Asian 7750...

Better to buy an ETA to replace the Asian one.