Obama, Clinton, McCain: International Poll

[ryyannon]

[Chronus]

The Clinton years were the best in this country since I have been alive and I would love for those days to be back.

Agreed. A huge budget surplus to a huge budget deficit.... who is responsible for such incompetence?

I also think that his Christianity has a lot to do with it which is also dissapointing because religion has no place in politics.

Definitely agree with this... it should play no part in elections or political decisions. Sadly we live in a hugely flawed world

Hillary is a politician's politician. She knows how to play the game and she knows how to get things done. Plus Bill will be right with her.

I think Bill's experience will help a lot... even better, let her be the figurehead while he runs things

There could be America's first black president or their first female president.... or will they just do things as they've always known them and elect a disaster to put them even more deeper into the red?

I forget which president it was but it was once said that the American people aren't smart enough to know who is best for the presidency. I concur.............

All too true, as most of the outside world would probably also concur

[Chronus]

just that they are all the same at the end of the day, and don't really stand to impact things one way or the other anyway.

Cannot disagree with that...

[tanya]

Here in Chiago we have one of the highest tax rates in the country. We even have a city wide bottled water tax !!!!!! Enough with the Socialism I'm going for the charasmatic war hero !!!!! Should of been president 8 years ago!!! Cute Milfey wife, hot daughter, would know how to get us out of the mess of a war with dignaty and without [censored]ing it up worse because just leaving would do that. I know people who know Obama and he is a sincere and magnetic guy but he is style over substance and there is no doubt that he is a dyed in the wool socialist as are most of the Democratic Machine here in the lovely Socialist city state of Chicago. No Brainer - McCain !!!! He'll win anyway. The Dems will tear one another apart before the smoke clears on the primaries.

[beanyboy]

Here in Chiago we have one of the highest tax rates in the country. We even have a city wide bottled water tax !!!!!! Enough with the Socialism I'm going for the charasmatic war hero !!!!! Should of been president 8 years ago!!! Cute Milfey wife, hot daughter, would know how to get us out of the mess of a war with dignaty and without [censored]ing it up worse because just leaving would do that. I know people who know Obama and he is a sincere and magnetic guy but he is style over substance and there is no doubt that he is a dyed in the wool socialist as are most of the Democratic Machine here in the lovely Socialist city state of Chicago. No Brainer - McCain !!!! He'll win anyway. The Dems will tear one another apart before the smoke clears on the primaries.

Hey Tanya, I also live in the Stalinist six horse town known as Chicago! And, yes, I understand completely what you are saying about Obama. I used to play basketball with him at the East Bank Club and he's very nice. But I wouldn't vote for him for President. Chicago, sadly, is heading straight into the crapper, and Richie Daley and Todd Stroger, and all their hack cronies, are directly responsible. It's too bad, but what can you do? MOVE! I am going to move to the wine country north of San Francisco after I retire...I am getting out of Chicago. So then I can be over-taxed in California!

[bubu]

I started this thread to stimulate a global feel for the presidential race---- NOT to vent against each others personal views. PLEASSEE give us a feeling of how YOUR REGION perceives the candidates. NOT PERSONAL NEGATIVITY! We are a community united in a wonderful interest and hobby ! WATCHES! Let us treat each other with the same LOVE and RESPECT we feel for our watches.

And give all our members the same support this community was founded on. Thank you, bubu

[Richard Tracy]

Obama may likely be the first "black" POTUS, but not in 2008. Just doesn't seem right to me. He needs to get some depth to his message, because I for one don't see anything meaningful in his "audacity of hope" message. I am not even sure what it means! I listened to his stump speech once and have never seen somebody get more applause for saying a bunch of empty, meaningless jargony Oprah catchphrases. Obama has a lot of talent, no doubt, but he needs a decade or so of experience in the Senate (or Illinois governor, etc.) to put some meat on his bones so to speak. He's only 45, so he's got plenty of time...

Listened to his stump speech once ? That explains your confusion...

Regarding his experience and age,..at 46, he's older than both Kennedy and Clinton when they took the oval office, and has more experience where it counts than both of them,. with his grass roots organizing from the ground up on behalf of the working class, and doing it for reasons of community benefit not for financial gain.

His political and law experience is very much the same as Lincoln had when he was sworn in.

All three of those presidents had opposition groups saying exactly the same thing about them while they ran for president,

[Guest Carl]

Here in Ohio we have locked up the election and put the results in a box.

We have thrown away the key so stop back in November and we tell you the results.

Carl

[archibald]

Wow. That was some rant Archibald. I especially love the "Huckebee was the political anitchrist" line. But I think too much of what you write and believe is wishful thinking rather than fact. Hillary Clinton is ahead in the polls in PA, and it looks like "late deciders" are breaking her way, which, according to the Gallup Organization, could lead to a 10 or 12 point victory for her. So I doubt her candidacy is over after tomorrow. The old battle axe is in it to stay, and she's taking it all the way to Denver for a Democratic Battle Royale that will make World Federation Wrestling look timid. By focusing on the supposed disarray of the GOP, you do disservice to your party, which is in the middle of its biggest rift since 1972. The rift can only lead to defeat, perhaps a crushing one, as it did in 1972, when the most hated and despised man in American politics since Aaron Burr (Richard Nixon), mopped up the floor with a supposed "lefty" (George McGovern). The entire and only reason why the Democrats have superdelegates is to avoid a repitition of this drubbing.

How you know that Obama is "deeply moderate" is puzzling. Have you met him? Even if you have it would not be indicative of how his administration will govern. I have met him, twice, and I have no idea! His record in the Illinois and national Senate betray a very different political sensibility--one which the GOP will use against him to toss him around like a ragdoll. As they did George McGovern.

So my guess is that the Democratic Battle Royale may lead to another interesting twist--a third candidate "dark horse" who comes in from the wings and unifies the party. CLinton and Obama will have to salve their wounds--Clinton can go back to the Senate and Obama can be the next viable Democratic POTUS candidate in 2012 or 2016. Maybe it'll be Al Gore, maybe it'll be John Edwards. Who knows? But that implausible occurence seems more likely every day the cage match continues.

Beanyboy, thanks for your kind words--ranting is one of the great pleasures of online life. It's also a pleasure to meet a Republican who recognizes that soul-looking isn't all it's cracked up to be.

To answer your question, in my business, it'd be hard not to meet Obama and,on the record, I'd say have a pretty good working sense of the "thinking of the Obama campaign." But neither of those dubious honors makes me think I can predict how the Obama administration will govern. Lot's of years and lot's of fights in this town though, make me certain that his administration will look alot more like Clinton's than LBJ's (in more ways than the obvious). Without boring and patronizing you with some message board OT forum version of Early 21st Century Special Interest Politics 101, suffice to say that Obama knows he'll have to pick two or three areas to spend his political juice and operate in the margins on everything else--and the war is going to be expensive. Plus, he's deeply moderate by temperment.

I'm sure the 72 Convention thing is a hot topic among the GOP illuminatti, but there's no there (or hoffman) there---except for conservative wishful thinking. The plug will be pulled on Clinton (more slowly, I guess, since she got close enough for mediawhore purposes to 2 digits) but it is being pulled as I type by people that know how to pull plugs, and the lights will be off long before Denver. Obama will tick noone off by cutting deals w/ "the man." No New-Left-vs-Daley-esque intreague. There will be no delegate seating fights. It will be all coronation all the time.

Your subconsious though has hit on the main issue of the general: what kind of leash is(can) McCain going to put on the Bob Perrys of 2008, and which faction of dem operatives will get Obama's ear when hit comes time to rumble. My guess is that there are too many skeletons ranting and f****ing and cutting deals in John McCain's closet to make him dangerous. I'm thinking Lapel Pins are the rule, rather than the exception.

So, as the circular firing squad that is the GOP readies and aims, I say to you: all the best of luck in '08 and, of course.......Fire!!!

@victoria: seems like a reasonably polite discussion to me, especially by online political discussion standards. Maybe it's an American thing but we tend to beat the crap out of eachother when we talk about politics nd then leave the heat of political discussions behind when they're over. Heck, I think Rush Limbaugh was James Carville's best man.

[bubu]

Which watches do the candidates wear? And what does this say about their personalities?

[Guest asad]

Which watches do the candidates wear? And what does this say about their personalities?

I think Obama wear a TAG, and that says hes young and practical to be president.

[slay]

If the dems give Hillary the nomination, the republicans could run anyone against her and I would vote for their candidate. And I mean anyone. She will say/do anything to get elected ... truth and the American people be damned. I don't think Obama's got enough experience to be President yet. Will be interesting to see if any major candidates emerge through third parties. IMO, the main key for McCain will be his running mate. If he gets someone good (like Colin Powell), he's a lock.

What kind of "experience" do you need to be president? I mean comeon, if a drug addicts and alcoholic that is to stupid to hold a book right side up can become president, why not a (almost 50 year old) guy that graduated from harvard WITHOUT his daddy helping him to get into college?

[giorgio]

It always cracks me up when people actually refer to how stupid GWB is. Sure he's dyslexic, but he's probably one of the sharpest guys on the planet. He's screwed over entire countries to the financial benefit of himself and his friends and convinced others to join in his cause to their detriment. Notice how he has no problem making fun of himself in public? He probably laughs his ass off every time someone "misunderestimates" him. His brilliance is that he has convinced millions of people that he's a simple, bumbling bafoon - and that makes him dangerous.

[ryyannon]

It always cracks me up when people actually refer to how stupid GWB is. Sure he's dyslexic, but he's probably one of the sharpest guys on the planet. He's screwed over entire countries to the financial benefit of himself and his friends and convinced others to join in his cause to their detriment. Notice how he has no problem making fun of himself in public? He probably laughs his ass off every time someone "misunderestimates" him. His brilliance is that he has convinced millions of people that he's a simple, bumbling bafoon - and that makes him dangerous.

Given enough power, anyone is dangerous.

As to GWB's intelligence (or lack thereof), here's a long essay on just that - along with a multitude of other subjects. Worth reading if you enjoy good writing - even if you disagree with the author's judgement:

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000136.html

If you don't want to read the whole thing, scroll down the page a bit to "The War of the Bumper Stickers" - that's the part about Bush.

An excerpt:

"What George W. Bush is, however, is inarticulate. English is his second language. From what I can see he does not have a first language. Abraham Lincoln spoke in simple frontier language in an age of rhetorical flourish. Like Bush, he was considered a bumpkin and an idiot, and like Bush, he realized that there were times when having people misunderestimate you repeatedly was a real advantage. That's goal-oriented. That's playing the deep game. That's cunning."

[slay]

It always cracks me up when people actually refer to how stupid GWB is. Sure he's dyslexic, but he's probably one of the sharpest guys on the planet. He's screwed over entire countries to the financial benefit of himself and his friends and convinced others to join in his cause to their detriment. Notice how he has no problem making fun of himself in public? He probably laughs his ass off every time someone "misunderestimates" him. His brilliance is that he has convinced millions of people that he's a simple, bumbling bafoon - and that makes him dangerous.

i think you highly overestimate him. he's nothing more than a puppet.

[giorgio]

That's a pretty interesting editorial Ryannon, many good points and well written - though for someone who rants on about critical thinking skills, the author seems to be lacking. Though many of his views are well thought out and backed, his entire position is biased and the fact that he doesn't acknowledge that is surprising. He cites "selective reporting" as the cause of mass ignorance many times, but fails to see how that same brainwashing would cloud judgment and shape his view of history.

@ Slay - I believe in the puppet master conspiracy as much as the next guy, but even if you believe that there's a secret "shadow government" running the show, a little historical research will show you how that entire family's been a key player in shaping U.S. policy and foreign relations. It's not so much that he's a puppet, as he is playing his role, and doing it quite well.

Like the article says - the man has an MBA, has graduated from 2 of the best universities in U.S., and flew fighter jets. - I'd rather overestimate a guy like that than be foolish enough to underestimate him.

[ryyannon]

i think you highly overestimate him. he's nothing more than a puppet.

You're absolutely right, Slay, and I'm the guy who's pulling his strings.

Cope with that, sukka!

@giorgio:

Damn straight his whole postion is biased!

I wouldn't trust anyone who wasn't: he's not trying to be some kind of impartial clinical scientist; he states his postion (what you call his 'bias') clearly and then backs it up with hard fact and empirical observation - all the way down to describing how dangerous it was to pilot the zhitbucket fighter jet that Bush did, having flown the same pig himself.

Who ever taught you that to be credible, a position had to be 'unbiased'? Sounds like dreadful PC/muticultural/relativist groupthink...

[giorgio]

My undergrad was in sociology, so I know all about groupthink. First thing I learned was to ask of any situation "how did it come to be" -- next lesson was to try to put myself in a fish's position and realize that it might not even have a concept of water. He exercises his critical thinking skills when talking about GWB - indeed, anyone who could get into one of the top schools in the country, graduate, and get a master's degree from an even better school, can't possibly be an idiot. Then to fly fighter jets on top of that - I know graduates who can barely drive a car. Give them a cell phone, and that's too information for them to process all at once.

I have no problem with his opinion/position being biased - that's what an opinion is after all. Just don't disguise it as a lesson in critical thinking - he's like the fish who has yet to discover water.

[Shundi]

Interesting side note:

To be Editor of Harvard's Law Review you need to:

Contribute regularly

and

Write an essay and enter it into a competition for judgment. Then, and only then, do you have the CHANCE to be chosen as Editor.

Obama:

Never wrote an article for the Review until he was Editor

and

Never submitted any essay/competitive writing piece for judgment.

I'm supporting either Bob Barr or McCain (probably Barr, even though he has no chance) in November. Hillary keeps shooting herself in the foot and Obama is, as one member pointed out, "A mile wide and an inch deep." Don't get me wrong, if he was a bit more centrist and had, oh I don't know, actually EXPERIENCE managing something larger than his office for more than 5-10 years, I'd consider him.

This country needs a modified contractionary fiscal policy to get our debt in line and we need to stop wasting money. To clarify, McCain stated that he doesn't want to "stay in Iraq for 100 years" in the sense we are now, he wants to have the majority of the forces out by 2012 and having a very small delegation there (Like we do in Korea, Japan, Germany, etc) to serve as a US presence in the region.

That said, the economy should start bouncing back within a year or so (everyone who thinks the US is on the brink of chaos, downfall, blah blah blah, sorry...not happening (at least, not for some time) ) but we do need to clear our trade balances, figure out social security/health care so it's more streamlined/has less waste, and stop blowing all our money on wasteful endeavors.

[JohnG]

I like both McCain and Obama for (obviously) different reasons.

I used to have a higher opinion of Clinton but it has become clear that she wants to sabotage Obama so that he loses in November (there is NO WAY she can win the nomination now), thus giving her another run in 2112. If he wins now he will automatically be the party candidate in 2112 and she would have to wait until 2116 and by then she will face the same age issues as McCain.

McCain is a solid moderate and does not pander to the party machine. He has vast experience and his ideas mesh closely with my own. Obama is inexperienced and though I do not agree with many of his ideas he is honest, intelligent, and has the capacity to be a GREAT leader. He is also a black man and I am not afraid to say that that influences my thinking. It is time for the United States to take the step of electing to its highest office a member of a race that it once enslaved. No person should be elected to office as a mere symbolic gesture but if they are qualified for the job I will take into account the simple fact that electing an African-American to be President of the United States would say a great deal about how far the country has come and where it is headed. Even though politically I stand closer to Senator McCain, if Senator Obama were elected, on that day I would feel very proud to be an American. Lately there have not been many opportunities for me to feel that way.

[Matte]

David Palmer!

Sorry...I mean Obama

[fakemaster]

RMFAOL!

[JohnG]

RMFAOL!

Ok I give up - what is RMFAOL?

[Newdoc]

Obama has ran a good campaign

-O (as in Obama!)

1. I like Obama as well. Our health care system is a serious problem, but you're exactly right about our having to be realistic about change. Obama's health care plan is much more palatable for the country, and I also think he's the better candidate.

2. Obama has rUn a good campaign. But hey, we didn't get grammar class in medschool like they do in some lawschools.

3. It's like Chris Rock said, If Clinton wins the nod, and Obama gets the VP spot on the ballot, and they get elected, Hillary won't be Pres for long, cause somebody will shoot her so we can have a black president. <<all in good fun>>

[Newdoc]

I like both McCain and Obama for (obviously) different reasons.

No person should be elected to office as a mere symbolic gesture but if they are qualified for the job I will take into account the simple fact that electing an African-American to be President of the United States would say a great deal about how far the country has come and where it is headed. Even though politically I stand closer to Senator McCain, if Senator Obama were elected, on that day I would feel very proud to be an American. Lately there have not been many opportunities for me to feel that way.

Exactly what I would have said if you hadn't beat me to it. It would be a proud day to see an African-American elected