Hong Kong is amazing for Watches...Met up with ANGUS in Guangzhou.

[HauteHippie]

It sounds like you had a great trip, D! Thanks for the interesting and amusing report!!

[rocket754]

It's always good to learn how it really works in the rep game. Thanks for the great information and story.

[warren18]

let me caveat... promotersf, don't want to hijack your extremely informative and very good thread, and, this rant is not against ANGUS (or any non cartel member)

I think you all take this "cartel" thing too seriously. Bottom line, these are REPS. The dealers are in business. We are part of a community (the four rep forums), but business, is business. Just because we chat online, and banter across the forums, does not mean that the dealers are not making a living off this. I started buying "reps" back in the 80's. I was buying them in the places that reps were bought back then "Far East, Middle East, Near East, Med". They topped anything available in the US... But they sucked.

I was turned on to these boards by a friend. My first two purchases were from the "Cartel". Got exactly what I expected, for the price I expected, with great support and communication. I'm aware of the other dealers, and will use them them when they offer me something I want. But.... I have been shopping online for 20 years (yes, 20...) and there is a lot to be said with ease and convenience. Too many of the NON CARTEL dealers make it too difficult to shop (only accept this form of payment; only communicate via skype; serious medical issues so I can't get back to you for six months; yes I know you sent me $400, but I'm an eccentric dealer and only reply to PM's on the first full moon of the year, so suck it up and wait...) You get the idea.

I for one am sick of reading of dealers that drop of the face of the earth, for months at a time, then resurface to scream bloody murder about how the customer's are wronging them... with the support of "long-time" forum members.

Business is business. I'm all about survival of the fittest. If the NON CARTEL truly offered better value for the money than the CARTEL... the CARTEL would be out of business. Instead, both the CARTEL and NON CARTEL rely on word of mouth of the forums to keep them in business. I'm very happy with the service I receive form the cartel (for a couple bucks more?). I am even happier with the service I receive from members... I buy most of my reps from members (8 of 10 in the last two months).

BOTTOM LINE: NON CARTEL... here's your challenge...... I want the best quality/accuracy Super Ocean Steel Fish, cheaper (shipped), than the cartels, with assurances of quality, and guarantee for shipping.... If you can deliver..... SOLD.

Let the flames and names begin...

Edited April 27, 2008 by warren18

[TeeJay]

Glad you had a good trip, and some interesting little anecdotes

One thing confused me: I was under the impression that the Cartel consisted of Andrew, Angus, Joshua and King. Has Angus 'broken away' from the Cartel? If so, has this impacted his ability to source goods which previously, the Cartel focussed on, and were able to keep exclusive to them through buying power on their part?

[rodwc]

But.... I have been shopping online for 20 years (yes, 20...)

Shopping online for 20 years !

You must have seen a vast lot of changes in THAT time. (mobile phones/ internet/etc.)

I can`t seem to remember what a computer looked like ..............20 years ago.

Please tell us all.

Also from your vast experience, would you care to share your experiences with us , as I`m sure there are members here

who would love to hear.

( Sincere apologies for the thread crapping.)

[rek001]

Here we go again, who has the best SFSO, arrgh.

[thomasng]

Personally though, I think getting a genuine AP ROO will be a good investment in the long run, getting a used one is the best way, as buying new, you will still lose money.

As I have been following the ROO for a while, prices have easily gone up over 50% in the secondary market in the last 2-3 years, limited editions over 100%. There were days that you could find a Rubberclad for a little over $10K, these days on TZ you should look to spend at least $14K for something that's in average condition, and there's no sign of the craze dying down (for now).

And you're definitely right about HK, never seen so much selection available at once, but shopping for genuine watches in HK is no longer what it was 5 years ago. 5 years ago, you could get 40% discounts, and continue to bargain down the prices. These days, tourists from Mainland China pay full price for these watches, the mentality of the watch shops now is "If you don't like the price, there are 10 people lining up behind you willing to pay full pop".

Edited April 27, 2008 by thomasng

[scoobs1971]

Nice writeup, thnx! Good to read about one of my prefered collectors

[FasTTaP]

nice read. Thanks

[promotersf]

hey thom, good to see you're around, haven't seen you for awhile

yes, i've been on TZ looking for the AP ROO rubberclads, they've been ranging from $13.5-14.5 for average condition BUT they are holding their values. this is one of the reasons why i started concentrating again on gens because i can enjoy my gens for a year, couple of years, and still resell them for roughly the price that i paid...this is especially true if you buy used, you won't lose.

angus is NOT part of the cartel, one of the "cartel" members isn't a fan of angus and has made efforts to impede his business. i have no issues with the cartel per se, they are good dealers that provide a good service, i just don't like the idea of collusion that goes on...and i would prefer the extra effort to put out the best, not a series of generation after generation sucking us in. and i've never been one of these anti cartel guys, just making a comment after thinking about things

when i was in hong kong, i was really hoping to see some deals, but almost ALL dealers didn't budge on price...could be a dollar weakness issue, but i think it has more to do with the influx of new BIG money in asia...they don't need to come down in price anymore like in the past. when you look at the amount of high end watches that are offered, it's staggering...but hong kong is a hub for not only HK, but China, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore...they have plenty of buyers with slick new credit cards or deep pockets with cash. the only selling point they were pitching to me was no tax, which is great...but in the US, i can buy from a dealer from out of state, and get the same deal, just pay for $60 next day shipping. this is one of the frustrating issues is that i love my local ADs, but i still purchase from out of state often because the tax saving is too significant.

[robertk]

Great read. Very informative. Thanks.

[tanya]

Interesting stuff. Johnnie To should make a movie about it

[TeeJay]

let me caveat... promotersf, don't want to hijack your extremely informative and very good thread, and, this rant is not against ANGUS (or any non cartel member)

I think you all take this "cartel" thing too seriously. Bottom line, these are REPS. The dealers are in business. We are part of a community (the four rep forums), but business, is business. Just because we chat online, and banter across the forums, does not mean that the dealers are not making a living off this. I started buying "reps" back in the 80's. I was buying them in the places that reps were bought back then "Far East, Middle East, Near East, Med". They topped anything available in the US... But they sucked.

I was turned on to these boards by a friend. My first two purchases were from the "Cartel". Got exactly what I expected, for the price I expected, with great support and communication. I'm aware of the other dealers, and will use them them when they offer me something I want. But.... I have been shopping online for 20 years (yes, 20...) and there is a lot to be said with ease and convenience. Too many of the NON CARTEL dealers make it too difficult to shop (only accept this form of payment; only communicate via skype; serious medical issues so I can't get back to you for six months; yes I know you sent me $400, but I'm an eccentric dealer and only reply to PM's on the first full moon of the year, so suck it up and wait...) You get the idea.

I for one am sick of reading of dealers that drop of the face of the earth, for months at a time, then resurface to scream bloody murder about how the customer's are wronging them... with the support of "long-time" forum members.

Business is business. I'm all about survival of the fittest. If the NON CARTEL truly offered better value for the money than the CARTEL... the CARTEL would be out of business. Instead, both the CARTEL and NON CARTEL rely on word of mouth of the forums to keep them in business. I'm very happy with the service I receive form the cartel (for a couple bucks more?). I am even happier with the service I receive from members... I buy most of my reps from members (8 of 10 in the last two months).

For someone who only signed up to the forum mid-March, you certainly have a wide range of knowledge. This is good, knowledge is power. Or so they say...

I agree entirely with your point about dealers who disappear, then reappear with serious medical issues (Not that ThaT Kould be refering to anyone )

I would point out though, that, while the Cartel are only providing a product, and in theory, people have the freedom to buy from whoever they want, with muscling out the competition, that reduces overall buyer choices and forces people into a set course of action. I may be incorrect, but, I believe Watchmark was offering HBBs for less than the Cartel were charging. Another issue people have with the Cartel, is deliberately inaccurate listings (advertising Swiss movementts, and knowingly selling Asian movements) and offering products/services, which were not actually provided (offering waterproofing/servicing for a fee, and sending a watch which was untouched and leaked like a seive) How did the Cartel respond to these incidents? By holding their hands up, and saying "You're right, we were lying..." or by trying to justify their behaviours by saying the rep industry carries risks, and that it's not fair to expect them to take all the risk. Well, as they chose to enter the business, that does make it their responsibility, and one which they should shoulder like professionals, not hand down as an excuse to clients when caught in a lie. That is the issue with the Cartel, and, all the nice, shiny watches in the world won't make up for those behaviours. Then there's the issue of drop-shipping... Not a problem as such, but, if someone is a drop-shipper, they should say so, not claim they are not. As far as I know, from what previous discussions highlighted, was that Angus was the only member of the Cartel who did not drop-ship.

BOTTOM LINE: NON CARTEL... here's your challenge...... I want the best quality/accuracy Super Ocean Steel Fish, cheaper (shipped), than the cartels, with assurances of quality, and guarantee for shipping.... If you can deliver..... SOLD.

I'll be interested to see if any of the other dealers choose to accept this challenge. Not that they actually need to, afterall, why should they prove themself? If people are happy to buy from them, and discuss their products here with pride, then that's proof enough that the Cartel are not the only source of good quality watches

[Edit to add]

If Angus has removed himself from the Cartel, that is indeed excellent news

[realthomas]

i meet with angus 3 months ago , i was in gz for more than a week and i meet with him for take breakfast 2 times , his a helpfull and nice guy , he gave me good advices what to buy or what not and i pick from him aprox 10 very good watches that time..most of it was ordered 10 days before i travel to china

reguards

[warren18]

TeeJay,

I signed up in Mid March in this forum, Mid Feb in two others, and Mid Jan on another (I can guarantee you though that I have read damn near every post in all four forums )

I have also immersed myself fully into this hobby. I have purchased twelve reps since January, all from various people and dealers, and I'm still going strong. I only buy from dealers/sources with good reviews, and like everyone else, hope for the best. For instance, regardless of quality or price, I would not buy from a "certain" dealer. I have seen from my research that he has certain customer service issues. He may be the best guy in the world, and have a great record of sales and quality, but I'm not willing to take the chance I catch him on a bad day. He, however, has access to MBW. Well, I'll wait until I go to Thailand, or until a member sells one to get my MBW sub

Good point on the Cartel. This is where I believe the buyer has all the power. You can be sure that the minute I'm stung by the Cartel, my business will go elsewhere. I like it just like it is... a couple reputable indy dealers, a couple of reputable Cartel dealers. Lot's of selection. I'm the type of guy who won't fly Delta Air anymore because they took my 90+K miles without warning, and then sent me a flyer to buy back my miles at some ridiculous price. They lost my business forever, United and American gained a loyal customer.

Andrew and Josh are the two guys I send my friends to when they want to buy a rep. Reasonable price, good selection, well laid out site, online payment, reliable shipping. Easy transaction. If they want more, I advise them to click on the RG and RWI links.... That's how I started. Look at me now.... Member in all four main forums, a ton of watches, a full mod/repair toolkit set up, learning how to repair watches... As my wife and kids say... obsessed with watches.

As for Angus, I've heard nothing but good about him, I'm looking for an excuse to buy from him. Sounds like I may have one soon!

I am envious that the OP was able to actually meet one of the reputable dealers. I'd love that opportunity, or the opportunity for a factory tour.

[TeeJay]

TeeJay,

I signed up in Mid March in this forum, Mid Feb in two others, and Mid Jan on another (I can guarantee you though that I have read damn near every post in all four forums )

I have also immersed myself fully into this hobby. I have purchased twelve reps since January, all from various people and dealers, and I'm still going strong. I only buy from dealers/sources with good reviews, and like everyone else, hope for the best.

I think it's awesome that you've brought yourself 'up to speed' on things so quickly, and such dilligence is admirable indeed

For instance, regardless of quality or price, I would not buy from a "certain" dealer. I have seen from my research that he has certain customer service issues. He may be the best guy in the world, and have a great record of sales and quality, but I'm not willing to take the chance I catch him on a bad day. He, however, has access to MBW. Well, I'll wait until I go to Thailand, or until a member sells one to get my MBW sub

I'm pretty sure I know who you mean, and customer service issues non-withstanding, it was the attitude with which he addressed members of the forum which made me know I'd never want to do business with him. Indeed, he might have access to good stock, but, he's not the only source of such subs, and indeed, why take the chance of getting him on a bad day (of which he seems to have many... ) when there are other sources around. Indeed, maybe picking one up in Thailand will prove a good adventure. Personally, I have a plan (very long term) to travel to the US to buy a 1976 Camaro to ship back to the UK, where I can work to convert it into this:

Sure, it could be tied in with a holiday, but such adventures definitely make life more interesting Of course, as Master Yoda said, "Excitement. Adventure. A Jedi craves not these things..."

Good point on the Cartel. This is where I believe the buyer has all the power. You can be sure that the minute I'm stung by the Cartel, my business will go elsewhere. I like it just like it is... a couple reputable indy dealers, a couple of reputable Cartel dealers. Lot's of selection. I'm the type of guy who won't fly Delta Air anymore because they took my 90+K miles without warning, and then sent me a flyer to buy back my miles at some ridiculous price. They lost my business forever, United and American gained a loyal customer.

That's a fair point. I would point out, that there were several people, who, despite good dealings with the Cartel, upon hearing their business practices, vowed to immediately stop buying from them, even though they personally, had had good dealings with them. I guess this was a situation where people were looking beyond their own experiences, and looking to what was best for the community as a whole

Andrew and Josh are the two guys I send my friends to when they want to buy a rep. Reasonable price, good selection, well laid out site, online payment, reliable shipping. Easy transaction.

All those things are available from the non-Cartel Indy dealers...

If they want more

Such as charging for waterproofing which is never carried out, then yup, the Cartel can definitely provide those things

Look at me now.... Member in all four main forums, a ton of watches, a full mod/repair toolkit set up, learning how to repair watches... As my wife and kids say... obsessed with watches.

Awesome, I'l look forward to seeing your future projects I have to admit, there's nothing as satisfying as doing something with a watch yourself, putting it all back together, and being able to look at it and know "I did that..."

As for Angus, I've heard nothing but good about him, I'm looking for an excuse to buy from him. Sounds like I may have one soon!

Who needs excuses

I am envious that the OP was able to actually meet one of the reputable dealers. I'd love that opportunity, or the opportunity for a factory tour.

But would that factory be a production factory of Western Standards (in which case, various machines and whatnot doing their things are very cool to see) or, would the 'factory', be anything more than a family crowded round the dinner table, building watches and saying "Please pass the lube" (for gasgets, of course ) ? According to some reports, that's how many rep items are made

[robj]

I really think this Cartel thing is overplayed!

If you ever go to GZ as I am sure OP will tell you and see how many watch dealers and watches there are you would realize it would be almost impossible for 1/2 or 10 dealers to have any influence with the factories and any say in design.

Everything the likes of Josh or Andrew have for sale is available else where.

I would imagine Josh and Andrew do no more than work for a Chinese wholesaler and may well have exclusivity with him but as far as factories go etc I doubt very much they know even where they are!

This is a huge business and the amount of watches produced every month runs into millions if Josh and Andrew were selling 500 watches each a week it would make little or no difference to the bigger picture.

I saw a thing on TV the other day while I was in Hong Kong they busted a factory making Hublot they showed pictures of the stock room there must have been 10000 there and it went on to say they were only intermediaries so Goodness knows how many they would have found if the factory had been raided. So if you think beyond the hype and the "We have bought a genuine to copy" of Josh and Andrew etc you would realize that they account for a very very small % of the sales from a factory.

I also believe that they hold little or no stock and dropship in the main. I have dealt with Josh a lot to be honest and can only say good things about him but I have had my share of wrong watches sent etc I would add that on every occasion there has been a mistake it has been sorted out immediately and without any drama. My point was that if they were not dropshipping and had the right item physically in stock this would be less likely to happen

[Chronus]

I saw a thing on TV the other day while I was in Hong Kong they busted a factory making Hublot they showed pictures of the stock room there must have been 10000 there and it went on to say they were only intermediaries so Goodness knows how many they would have found if the factory had been raided.

I'm a little confused with that. If they busted a factory and they showed them making the watches and it's stock room, how are they intermediaries?

Unless you mean this is where they put the watches together after buying in different parts from different factories? In which case, most of those factories are probably producing legitimate goods (eg. unmarked watch cases, Asian 7750 movements, etc).

[jeff g]

Nice read. Harkens back to the old adage 'Quality, not Quantity'.

Angus NOT drop shipping is the key here. Not having to travel to the Far East to ensure getting what you paid for, rates high as well.

I am down to purchasing just one or two reps a year. Consequently, any time... I can do a deal with a guy I trust, to personally examine and deliver the best watch available of the model I am interested in, for a fair price, well... that sounds really good to me.

[spookycord]

that's why alot of us take our community for granted since once we found our home base, we hit pay dirt and can always get the best of the best.

imagine if we didn't have RWG, or some of the other forums, what options would we have? how nice is it to say I want a Ceramic HBB, a swiss Breitling Super Ocean, a Swiss 111h, a IWC 3717 etc and get it? send it out for a Chieftang Double AR, a The Zigmeister superlume? who out there in the real world that we live in have these options?

Excellent point, couldn't agree more.

[robj]

I'm a little confused with that. If they busted a factory and they showed them making the watches and it's stock room, how are they intermediaries?

Unless you mean this is where they put the watches together after buying in different parts from different factories? In which case, most of those factories are probably producing legitimate goods (eg. unmarked watch cases, Asian 7750 movements, etc).

Well let me try to clarify it for you. What they actually asked the the policeman was do you think this is a significant seizer. To which he replied we believe this to be only a small operation and distribution center for the bigger factory manufacturing these fake watches. Now that is not verbatim but pretty close to what was said.

[TeeJay]

I really think this Cartel thing is overplayed!

And you base that on what? The existence of the Cartel is not up for dispute, and nor are the proven past incidences of mislabelled stock, or times when water-proofing was paid for, and the received watch leaking. Precicely how much 'clout' they may have with the factories is certainly an unknown quantity, but, there can be no doubt that they have, in the past, led people to believe that watches were only available from them, so not to search elsewhere, when infact, those watches were available elsewhere (to some dealers) Is it a coincidence that there have been complaints made about Cartel dealers, yet they are still able to maintain a position on these forums as 'trusted dealers'? As for them taking care if issues with shipping, of course they will. What kind of dealer does not deal with such issues in a timely fashion? They are not the only dealers capable of delivering excellent customer services or products, but they are the only dealers shown on numerous occasions to have either attempted to manipulate, or outright lied, to people about their products. That is not the kind of behaviour which should be defended or justified.

Peace. Welcome to the forum.

[robj]

And you base that on what? The existence of the Cartel is not up for dispute, and nor are the proven past incidences of mislabelled stock, or times when water-proofing was paid for, and the received watch leaking. Precicely how much 'clout' they may have with the factories is certainly an unknown quantity, but, there can be no doubt that they have, in the past, led people to believe that watches were only available from them, so not to search elsewhere, when infact, those watches were available elsewhere (to some dealers) Is it a coincidence that there have been complaints made about Cartel dealers, yet they are still able to maintain a position on these forums as 'trusted dealers'? As for them taking care if issues with shipping, of course they will. What kind of dealer does not deal with such issues in a timely fashion? They are not the only dealers capable of delivering excellent customer services or products, but they are the only dealers shown on numerous occasions to have either attempted to manipulate, or outright lied, to people about their products. That is not the kind of behaviour which should be defended or justified.

Peace. Welcome to the forum.

I am neither justifying or defending anyone! I am just making a point that the cartel thing is all hype and in reality they have no more pull with the factories than the man on the moon! price fixing lies etc are an altogether different thing and something I have not made and have no comment on. I only used Josh as an example to outline just how small a fish they are in the big sea but did fell a need to qualify my statement about wrong watches being sent. If they have the item and buyers want it what is the crime in getting as much as they can for it? They are not a philanthropic concern but a commercial enterprise. It's not like they are selling life saving drugs and holding sick people to ransom they are selling fake watches that the buyer has the choice to buy or not. Free enterprise has to work for everyone if the other sellers can't source the watch then they can't sell it if they can source the watch and want to reduce their profit then they are also free to do that, by the same token if the cartel as you choose to call them have an item that is not for sale with another seller they must be allowed to set the price as they wish. The option is still with the buyer to buy or not regardless of price or who has it for sale.

[TeeJay]

I am neither justifying or defending anyone!

I never said that you were, I merely asked what you were basing your judgement of the Cartel's 'status' on.

I am just making a point that the cartel thing is all hype and in reality they have no more pull with the factories than the man on the moon! price fixing lies etc are an altogether different thing and something I have not made and have no comment on. I only used Josh as an example to outline just how small a fish they are in the big sea but did fell a need to qualify my statement about wrong watches being sent.

That's a fair enough point about small fish, and in the grand scheme of things, yes, they likely are small fish. However, in the small scale, ie these forums, in a small enough pond, even a small fish, becomes a big fish, and that's the case of what we have in these forums: Big fish, in a small pond. (well, more accurately, small fish in tiny pond ) However, that has the effect of giving them clout in this community. Most notably, when someone points out a failing on their part, many are quick to defend them (not that that's what you were doing) There are also those, who are quick to defend them, so as not to endanger their 'easy supply' of reps, rather than having to go out into the wider areas of the community, and source their watches from dealers where there is less feedback and less support. To me, that says that some people just can't think outside the box and need spoonfeeding. I bought my first rep from what is considered (by these forums) to be a 'scam site'. Despite getting ripped off for the price, I certainly don't consider them scam artists, as they actually provided the product as promised. Sure, had I looked further, I would have found a better price, but, that's life... My next rep purchases, were from a dealer who this community has little time for: Applewave. A drop shipper. So the first watch he sent (which I ordered for my wife) wasn't what had been ordered, it was still a nice watch. He gave me the option to keep the watch, and accept a discount on re-ordering the original watch, which I declined. I said I'd return the incorrect watch, in return for the correct watch, and asked if the discount could be transfered to another purchase (which was for myself) Wasn't a problem at all. My wife still has the J12 somewhere, and, being quartz, it still keeps excellent time. Of course, the 'ceramic bracelet' wasn't up to much, and it's since been placed on a white leather bund strap. The watch I ordered for myself, an Omega Seamaster, was pretty inaccurate, but, in itself, a nice watch. I've since moved on to other dealers, but, in all instances, any errors have been dealt with swiftly and professionally. The only serious issues I have had, was when buying from a 'forum recommended' dealer. I guess it's just a case of swings and roundabouts with this hobby, but, there is a bigger range of dealers out there than the few who choose to pay to advertise on these forums, not that they are ever as well recognized or received. by the masses...

f they have the item and buyers want it what is the crime in getting as much as they can for it?

Ignoring the illegality of the reps themselves for a moment, of course there's no crime in getting as much as they can for it. There is however, the issue of making charges (such as for waterproofing) for services which are not performed, or knowingly advertising something as X (having a Swiss Movement) and selling Y (Asian movement) (For the record, I have no issue with Asian movements. I love Asian movements. I have Asian movements in the majority of my watches, and am not prepared to pay double cost just for a 'Swiss movement' which does the exact same thing just as well, my issue is with deliberate misadvertising.) If someone genuinely doesn't know what they are selling, then fair enough (and afterall, some of the dealers out there are not watch enthusiasts, they are just businessmen selling items) but, when they have been involved (to some degree) in the construction process of that watch, then they should know precisely what is being used, so in such instances, ignorance is no defence, as they simply are not ignorant of the details, and just hoping that no one will call them on the issue. When they are called on the issue, that's when you get the "This is a hard business" sob stories to try and justify their lies. That is what myself and others, found unacceptable.

they are selling fake watches that the buyer has the choice to buy or not. Free enterprise has to work for everyone if the other sellers can't source the watch then they can't sell it if they can source the watch and want to reduce their profit then they are also free to do that, by the same token if the cartel as you choose to call them have an item that is not for sale with another seller they must be allowed to set the price as they wish. The option is still with the buyer to buy or not regardless of price or who has it for sale.

I didn't name the Cartel, I simply use the term. Of course, people are free to buy from whoever they want. But, this goes back to the point I made above, if people think that the Cartel are the only reliable source, then they won't think to look elsewhere. Now, that's not really the fault of the Cartel if the person doesn't think to look for alternative sources, but, it is their fault for giving the impression that they are the only source (as one member was once told by email by a Cartel dealer) Also, yes, they can set their prices as they choose, if people don't like the price, they have the right not to purchase, but again, if they don't know about other dealers, or are lead to believe that the Cartel are the only source, then they are likely to pay that price to get the item they want, so yes, totally legitimate business practice, but thrown in with enough misdirection to make the client part with their cash. All the while, under the banner of 'trusted dealer', and with a forum full of happy buyers ready to back them, should someone dare to mention, that their brand new, waterproofed sub, leaks like a seive any time it gets wet. To be honest, the Cartel are much less active on this forum than they used to be, but, that doesn't mean they aren't still around, and making money off the community.

[MADRED7]

Dave,

thanks for the informativ thread...a great read with a cappuccino at 7:30 am

Anyway....ANGUS is a good guy...was my dealer-of-choice (DOC) from 2005-early 2007....and he is my DOC from the beginnig of this year again...he has outstanding customer service, TOP-notch....I will stick to him.

Theo

P.S.: Hope our dial-swap will be done soon