Child Labor Cases Uncovered in China

[Chronus]

I don't have a huge moral dilemma with stepping on Rolex's trademark (Rolex is the man and it is good to step on the man), but I don't like having to admit that I am consciously avoiding thinking about what really happens in those factories...

Are you so sure about that?

Aren't they owned by a private trust that contributes a lot of money to charity ?

How can you do that to charidee !

[Chronus]

The manufacturers of genuine brand name products certainly have more to lose from adverse publicity and that should provide some deterent against using slave labor. Whether defending their good name is sufficient incentive to avoid the practice is anyones' guess. However, we know that the manufacturers of reps don't face the constraint of defending their good name.

But the dealers do... We know that Andrew (and Joshua too, I think) have kids... do you think they would stand for it? Such decent people? I think not !

Or do you think anyone selling chinese made goods, in this case reps, has to put a disclaimer on their website? "Please note: these goods may have been manufactured by Chinese child slave labour, buy at own risk".

I guess we'll have to stick to reps made in Thailand

Edited May 1, 2008 by Chronus

[archibald]

I have to strongly disagree here. The NYT like all media organizations is run by human beings whose interests, beliefs, and politics must necessarily affect editorial decisions. They choose to publish certain articles over others based not only on relevance or importance but on politics as well -

Granted, I checked out of your analysis of the editorial decisions of the New York Times somewhere in the middle of the second graph, but I figured the main reason the Times ran this piece is because of, you know, the Torch. Gottta do China pieces during Torch Week.

[JohnG]

Are you so sure about that?

Aren't they owned by a private trust that contributes a lot of money to charity ?

How can you do that to charidee !

Is that true? If it is, I am sure the trust benefits operas, museums, and botanical gardens - you know, the places where money is needed most.

[rodwc]

This is JUNE 2005.

This is also happening on a world wide scale.

http://www.icc-ccs.co.uk/bascap/article.php?articleid=141

[eddhead]

@kenberg. I do understand your argument. As I stated previously, I can accept a point of view that resists boycotting because of a lack of emperical evidence tying forced labor to rep part manufacturing. I do not agree with it but I accept it. I have a problem with arguments that suggest forced child labor is no worse a sin than copyright infringement, or that somehow it is on par with interrupting efforts on the part of Rolex to contribute to charitable causes, or that as a group we are not worthy of making a stand because we are involved in an illegal activity, or that the Times is somehow making an editorial stand (as opposed to reporting on a legitimate news story) and as a result has no credibility on this issue or arguments that associate forced labor with voluntary labor. Sorry, but those arguments are pure drivel poor rationalizations.

And those of you who ARE looking for evidence that forced child labor may be being used to produce replica merchandise should read the link in rodwc's last post. That is pretty strong stuff. And I know it exists in other parts of the world. To me that is an argument to discontinue buying all replica goods.

[rodwc]

And those of you who ARE looking for evidence that forced child labor may be being used to produce replica merchandise should read the link in rodwc's last post. That is pretty strong stuff

This most likely has been happening way way before this date,and STILL is.

Anyone who truly believes that child labour is NOT being used in the manufacturing process of replica watches,

I believe are truly deluding themselves.

[Chronus]

Is that true? If it is, I am sure the trust benefits operas, museums, and botanical gardens - you know, the places where money is needed most.

I take it that you don't see operas, museums, and botanical gardens of being of much use in the modern world?

[KB]

This is JUNE 2005.

This is also happening on a world wide scale.

http://www.icc-ccs.co.uk/bascap/article.php?articleid=141

Oh come now Rod did you see who wrote that report?

Let alone the fact that it is based on stories the seeped out and not hard facts.

That aside I will state once last time that yes it is possible that child labor can be involved in some small way with the finished product we buy, however thats not the topic here the topic is that the OP has linked these kids that were resuced with the rep trade and the fact is there is not one shred of evidence to support this.

The guys supporting this viewpoint have to face the fact that the pen on the desk in front of them, the calculator, the stapler, maybe even the computer, these are what the kids were working on.

Ken

[rodwc]

Oh come now Rod did you see who wrote that report?

Let alone the fact that it is based on stories the seeped out and not hard facts.

That aside I will state once last time that yes it is possible that child labor can be involved in some small way with the finished product we buy, however thats not the topic here the topic is that the OP has linked these kids that were resuced with the rep trade and the fact is there is not one shred of evidence to support this.

The guys supporting this viewpoint have to face the fact that the pen on the desk in front of them, the calculator, the stapler, maybe even the computer, these are what the kids were working on.

Ken

Actually Ken , after looking through 20 pages or so, there is virtually nothing to support child labour is involved , but I do believe it does happen, there is no way anyone in the Western world can live without products and items manufactured in China, child labour involved or not.

So , Yes. I agree with your statement.

[Chronus]

If it is true that child slave labour is used, there is every chance it is also used in genuine watches.

We know many parts used in genuine watches are manufactured in China... cases, bezels, even movements! We know that many of these "factories" (sweatshops?) make genuine watches and parts by day, but gear up for reps "after dark".

If that's the case, perhaps it is prudent to boycott *all* watches, just in case. Do you really want to take the chance that one of the small cogs in your "Swiss Made" ETA 6498 genuine Panerai was not made by a child against their will in China? Or perhaps the gasket in your Rolex was made in such a manner? Or perhaps the crystal was handled by a child? Perhaps casebacks were boxed up in this way? It's scary

Edited May 2, 2008 by Chronus

[scoobs1971]

After reading most of this thread there's nothing new I can add.

Unless there's hard evidence showing the opposite, I tend to believe that it's more likely that assembling mechanical watches needs skilled adults than young kids.

[JohnG]

I take it that you don't see operas, museums, and botanical gardens of being of much use in the modern world?

Don't put words in my mouth. I suggested they are not where money is most needed - I said nothing about them being useless. When the affluent give money to organizations that mostly benefit THEM, that is not charity, that is service of self (philanthropy is the pretty word). I am a painter and practically lived in the Prado for the better part of a year and later in the Museum of the Royal Academy (also in Madrid) but I don't kid myself that when I donate to a museum (which I do every year) that that is "charity." That is supporting an institution that I patronize.

Real charity is giving time or money to provide food, medicine, housing, or basic services (such as education, sanitation, or clean water) to those in true need.

[JohnG]

...the OP has linked these kids that were resuced with the rep trade and the fact is there is not one shred of evidence to support this.

Uh, no he hasn't. He says simply that the article he read woke him up to the possibility that slave labor MAY be involved in the manufacture of these watches ("I feel that if this is happening, it is far more likely to be happening in the factories we buy [our] reps from...") and that until such time as the issue is resolved to his satisfaction HE is not going to buy more reps. He offered the topic up for discussion - advocating that others adopt a similar posture but accepting and respecting the decision of those who don't.

The weird thing is that is seems that the OP has shown more respect for those (such as myself) who would require more proof before changing their policy towards reps, than many of them do for HIM. I have sensed in a lot of the posts offering opposing opinions a certain ridicule or derision (I am not including you Ken - just speaking generally now) for the OP's points. Many if not all of his points are valid, the possibility is there and in the black market the potential for abuse is amplified but for now I will not change my buying habits. I don't need to tear him or his points down to say, "I need more proof."

[JohnG]

Oh come now Rod did you see who wrote that report?

True, not a good source of [reaonably] unbiased information. But am I the only one who noticed THIS:

Would you stop buying counterfeit goods if you knew that they had been made with the use of child labour or by vulnerable orphans forced to work long hours for a pittance? The reaction of most would be an emphatic no - but proving the case can often be quite difficult.

The irony is that there is a lot of truth in the statement as written, despite the fact that it is clearly a product of sloppy proofing.

[eddhead]

Once again for the sake of brevity I will not revisit in the entirety issues concerning the possible use of forced child labor to manufacture goods branded and distributed legitimately. Anyone interested in my view on that can review one of my many prior posts. I have to draw the line somewhere and this is where I choose to.

Throughout this thread I have done my utmost to refrain from personalizing this debate, preferring instead to comment on the arguments and the posts, but never the people who write them. For the most part others have done the same when taking the opposite view. I appreciate that to the extent that the people who participate here have shown a certain amount of respect and maturity that is a positive reflection on this board. However, there have been a few posts that have been a bit disappointing with respect to their tone and level of sarcasm. That is too bad. At the end of the day, I am sure we will all do what we feel we need to or what we think is the right thing to do. I am not at all certain that forced labor is used to produce the parts that make our watches, but given the nature of this trade, until I am somehow assured, I am done with it.

[Chronus]

I don't kid myself that when I donate to a museum (which I do every year) that that is "charity." That is supporting an institution that I patronize.

Perhaps we should all be donating money to where it's needed rather than these sorts of institutions, and others like these big churches on American TV where the pastor wears genuine blinged up Rolexes...

[Chronus]

At the end of the day, I am sure we will all do what we feel we need to or what we think is the right thing to do.

You can only follow your conscience. If you can't sleep at night, then don't listen to others and follow what they believe. If it doesn't bother them, their conscience is also clear.

I guess you have to do what you have to do for your own peace of mind, if nothing else.

[KB]

@eddhead no one else can decide what's right for you, however I do hope that not buying replica's and participating in our forum are two different issues.

It's been a long time since my last purchase but I'm still here for the people and would like to think you can see your way clear to do the same.

Ken

[eddhead]

@eddhead no one else can decide what's right for you, however I do hope that not buying replica's and participating in our forum are two different issues.

It's been a long time since my last purchase but I'm still here for the people and would like to think you can see your way clear to do the same.

Ken

Thanks Ken.

[Chronus]

I do hope that not buying replica's and participating in our forum are two different issues.

I hope so too.

[tekman]

I was born in Europe and now live in South East Asia I think from what I have read that the general consensus is child labour/slavery is abhorrent,as i said I live in Asia and the mind set is different than in the West they perceive things differently the moral stands are different than the Wests i`m not saying it is right or wrong but different and the people know that the wages they get are lower than in the Wests but they are not living there and there cost are but just a fraction of living costs the West they want to earn more and spend more but they also know that to achieve western living standards they must work for little money,the change will only come from within the country they don't hear what your saying and frankly don't give a dam,but living standards have changed in the last 5 years which has been monumental even for folks who live in the country, like somebody said there 1.1 billion people living in China if you stop buying watches and I am not saying you should or should`not but if you do then somebody could go without. that is the realty at the moment Things will change be patient. They are !

Steve

[Jimmythree]

disclaimer:

I did not read the replies below, only the headline post and my comments do not take into consideration what has been said other than the headline post.

I have seen many stories about 'child labor' in developing countries and they all seem to target a particular section of popular merchandise...clothing, electronics, footwear etc.

I have also seen claims by legitimate brand owners that the counterfeiting of popular products...handbags, shoes, watches etc was performed by 'child labor' and the product in question was sold to raise money for terrorism or some other nefarious deed. In short, they always try to lay a guilt trip on you.

I do not believe much of it.

I carried newspapers when I was 13 years old. Was this 'child labor'? NO! ...but it seemed like it was (to me) on cold winter and hot summer days.

I worked in a supermarket bagging groceries and mopping floors when I was 16 years old. Was this child labor? NO! ...but it seemed like it when they had a week long 'chicken sale'..."Cut up Free! Only 29 cents a pound!"

Kids working in a factory sewing shirts or handbags together is a bit easier for me to believe than a kid assembling mechanical wristwatches...although I have seen some watches that looked like they were assembled by a five year old kid with ADD.

A few reasons why this never did bother me very much (assuming might be true)...

1...It is not my problem...the kid's parents are to blame first and foremost.

2...This is an enforcement problem for the country where it takes place. If the kid is denied an education, mistreated, and/or forced to work...this should be stopped. no question about it. If the kid works part time under adult/family supervision, then this is probably not much of a problem.

3...I would have to see real proof that 'child labor' was used to make replica watches before it would change my mind and everyone should know that proof and truth are extremely rare commodities when dealing with foreigh countries.

As far as that goes...truth and proof are extermely scarce in the USA when dealing with politicians etc! Especially during election years.

4...The majority of replica forum posters do not actually know where replicas are assembled. (I for sure do not know) Are they assembled in factories?, sweatshops?, small workshops that specialize in mechanical/quartz watch assembly?, in homes where assembly is performed by family members? (this is probably where most 'child labor' goes on imho)

Maybe a 'collector' could shed some light on this subject.

[Jawo]

1. You can't necessariliy blame the parents. Many of these children are kidnapped and forced into labor. This reality has been ongoing for generations mostly prodominant during the industrial revolution. Many parents also realize that this is a harsh reality and that a family can't mearly survive on $50 a week.

2. Yes, this definately is an enforcement issue. The govenment in China has to place emphasis on concerns that address the nation. This has to be a mutual consensus of the people of China. As harsh as it may sound, China relies on child labor to keep their economy going.

3. In one form or another, I am sure that some child labor is used to carry out the production or distribution of replica watches. Depending what the definition of child labor is...18 and under?

4. We can base some association of how replica watches are made in relation to typical mechanical products. Cases are probably made factories, as well as the raw individual parts of the movement. The dial might be made in a different factory. The watches are assembled offsite at a different location. Of course this is pure speculation but following traditional production methods.

Like previously indicated, we all know of people including ourselves that have worked for money during our childhood years like paper delivery, busboy or other forms of hard labor. There is nothing wrong with it as long as guidelines are in place to protect the worker like maximum hours, benefits, minimum wage requirements and educational rights. Working as a child should be about making incremental income for the family not taking away from a child's right as a human being and the right of being a child. Minimum age requirements in most countries is 14 but is difficult for countries trying to move ahead of third world status to adhear to that guideline. I strongly believe that child labor is used in virtually all forms of manufacturing in China. Some of you might remember the big debate about GAP clothing that was being produced in sweatshops with many children as laborers. I strongly believe that it is the duty of the government to enforce legislation to protect children and maintain their rights as a child. It is the ultimate responsiblily of the general public however to speak out however when those rights are taken away.

A few reasons why this never did bother me very much (assuming might be true)...

1...It is not my problem...the kid's parents are to blame first and foremost.

2...This is an enforcement problem for the country where it takes place. If the kid is denied an education, mistreated, and/or forced to work...this should be stopped. no question about it. If the kid works part time under adult/family supervision, then this is probably not much of a problem.

3...I would have to see real proof that 'child labor' was used to make replica watches before it would change my mind and everyone should know that proof and truth are extremely rare commodities when dealing with foreigh countries.

As far as that goes...truth and proof are extermely scarce in the USA when dealing with politicians etc! Especially during election years.

4...The majority of replica forum posters do not actually know where replicas are assembled. (I for sure do not know) Are they assembled in factories?, sweatshops?, small workshops that specialize in mechanical/quartz watch assembly?, in homes where assembly is performed by family members? (this is probably where most 'child labor' goes on imho)

Maybe a 'collector' could shed some light on this subject.

[Jimmythree]

You are correct of course...a slightly different point of view.

I think that if a family can not provide for kids they should not have kids...period, and that parents are ultimately responsible for their kids. I understand conditions can come up that change well laid plans though.

The friends I grew up with all came up pretty rough and it has stayed with me into later life.

I never had a lot of sympathy for others, plain and simple....one exception is kids.