First Gen PAM purchase (without box or papers)

[ravishingrick]

I have the opportunity to buy a genuine PAM176G which is quite rare, but without boxes, papers straps and all other extra's. Of the painted dial 176's only 1200 where produced. In the last year I have only seen 1 or 2 for sale and in the last six months none at all. It looks like owners of these models are holding on to them due to the recent price rises and the speculation that Panerai might stop producing the 6497 models in a couple of years.

The seller is asking last years going price for the same model with box and papers (3800$). The watch has swapped owners once and is a safe queen and in good shape say about 95% but has never been serviced. What are the cons/pros of purchasing a quite rare piece without boxes and papers? How much of the of the price should be deducted because the watch is missing it's boxes and papers? And how will it missing it's boxes and papers influence it's future value?

Edited June 29, 2008 by ravishingrick

[anton]

I have seen PAMs without box or papers and straps go for about $500 less than if they did include their paraphernalia. (I purchased my 233 that way).

If the watch is a few years old, one wants their papers to get a good read as to its' service history, purchase date, place of purchase, etc.

If it's more than five years old, the same information applies, but I believe that it only affects the resale price minimally.

[HauteHippie]

This is indeed a fairly rare piece, and I'd hold out for one with box and papers myself. The differential you'll be paying now could be significantly larger in the future. And down the road, when the value is much higher, it'd probably be that much harder to sell a piece without papers.

[Watchmeister]

I buy watches without box and papers all the time. Boxes are a dime a dozen and if you are getting the right price you can send it in to Panerai for service and defacto certification. At $3800 that sounds like a decent deal. I wouldn't have said that 6-9 months ago as Panerai Panerai handwinds were readily available at $3500 or less. My last one was $3200 or something like that with box but no papers. Lately it seems the price with or without box and papers has been inching up. I am a believer that 25 years from now the original decorated movements and painted dials will be worth far more than the CDG and handwind sandwich dials.

[Mr Hanky]

If you are going to wear it regularly and don't care about maintaining the watch in "investment" quality then the box/papers are not important. If you are going to treat it as a safe queen and expect top dollar some day you need to have all the goodies. In addition, watches without boxes and papers raise suspicion and take longer to sell....even at the discounted price.

[ravishingrick]

I buy watches without box and papers all the time. Boxes are a dime a dozen and if you are getting the right price you can send it in to Panerai for service and defacto certification. At $3800 that sounds like a decent deal. I wouldn't have said that 6-9 months ago as Panerai Panerai handwinds were readily available at $3500 or less. My last one was $3200 or something like that with box but no papers. Lately it seems the price with or without box and papers has been inching up. I am a believer that 25 years from now the original decorated movements and painted dials will be worth far more than the CDG and handwind sandwich dials.

I share you opinion that the painted dial and the original non CDG movements will be worth more in the future. Man how I love the painted dials and non CDG movements. The seller has granted me a few weeks to think it over, so thats what I am going to do, but I think I am going to go for it.

I prefer to have the watch with box an papers and would gladly pay the extra 500$ for the same watch with boxes and papers, but would hate to miss the boat on this peace. My plan B is to buy the watch and if I later come across another good deal for the same model watch with box a papers to buy that one too and later sell the one without. I do not foresee having to much trouble reselling this model with or without papers.

Thanks all for your input.

[Watchmeister]

That's what I always say too. But I never got around to buying the duplicate with box and papers.

[ravishingrick]

That's what I always say too. But I never got around to buying the duplicate with box and papers.

[gavidoc]

1200 units, not many for resale, ability to purchase for $3800 (last year's price).

What has been the average % price increase on PAM's over the last year?

If the watch is in top condition I would personally purchase it for that price. From my experience with vintage Tudor Subs those that had papers would typically sell for approx. 20-25% higher. On vintage Speedy's the price difference was also around 20-25%. On newer watches it is harder to judge but from my personal experiece with real Omegas, the price difference on the aftermarket is more around 10-15% dependent upon model.

With some brands, you can actually contact them to have them send you a copy of the original papers for your watch after authentication while others will send you some servicing papers if you have it serviced by the brand.

I would buy it if it is that rare and then have it serviced by PAM one time to have new papers to go with the watch before selling.

[HauteHippie]

I am a believer that 25 years from now the original decorated movements and painted dials will be worth far more than the CDG and handwind sandwich dials.

Agreed 100%

[FxrAndy]

I would go for it and try to get the box and papers at a later date as someone said above they are available, and if you get it serviced you can get the cret at that point from panerai, i think this will be a good investment!

[ravishingrick]

Thanks for the advice gang, I have decide to purchase the watch and if all goes well shall have it in a few weeks. Shall post some pics then.

Cheers RR.

[Watchmeister]

Congrats. I think it is a very good move to buy it. And now you have the fun of identifying exactly which box is the right box. Did it originally come with nothing, screwdriver only, screwdriver and extra strap in which case you will need a screwdriver holder on one side and strap holder on the other. Box buying is an art unto itself. Keep looking for someone offering a complete set on the bay or risti with complete pictures and take a good look at that box. I am still trying to figure out exactly what box came with my 162.

[PAMman]

I would buy it too and would value it at 20% below 'regular market' value. I know that the lack of box & papers is probably a bigger deal to 'Ristis than collectors of other brands and I would certainly buy the correct box etc it comes at the right price. I fully agree that the 'painted dial' models are the most collectable and I have a F116 (Ti base with tobacco dial and older decorated movement / display back).

The Ti models do mark very easily but can be refinished satisfactorily - mine has light marks and I just enjoy it the way it is because I don't have to be over protective. I'm happy to know that it can be restored at some time in the future.

[Sweattdogg]

Congrats on the purchase. I think it sounds like a good deal. I also agree that I think the decorated movements will be worth more in the future. I think you made a wise decision in picking one up now. The prices have already been on the move and I don't think they will be coming down anytiime soon.